Non Catholic Interpretation of Matthew 16:18-19

[Dokimas]

YOU issued the statement that there is a list of essential beliefs.
All I did was call you on it - and you FAILED.

1 Pet. 3:15 tells us to "always be ready to give the reasons for the hope that lies within us" - and you’re saying that you can’t.

Pretty sad, Doki . . .

Okay I failed. Now it’s your turn. What’s the essentials needed to be a true believer, a part of the Body of Christ, one of God’s saved ones?

 

[elvisman]

Are you saying I’ve rejected Jesus as my Savior? Straight question I’d apreciate a direct and straight answer. None of your games, please.

NOPE. JESUS did:
Luke 10:16
“Whoever listens to you (the Church) listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” - Jesus Christ**

 

[Dokimas]

You, as a Protestant ALSO fail the second part - as do ALL Protestants. You’re in the same boat with the guys I listed because they also chose their own authority - over the one apponited by Christ.

I don’t have to read their minds to know what they believed - I read what THEY said and wrote about it.

Could you post the link where Charles Manson said the Jesus of the Bible is God, the Savior of mankind and the other things I mentioned?

Jim Jones called himself God. He may have believed he was Jesus. So he fails your belief of him.

BTW, when you are proven wrong you NEVER seem to admit it. You obvious missed the whole of my post which showed you were wrong about what you thought I was saying. You CAN’T admit you are wrong. Sad.

 

[elvisman]

Okay I failed. Now it’s your turn. What’s the essentials needed to be a true believer, a part of the Body of Christ, one of God’s saved ones?

Hey YOU’RE the one who said there is a list.
YOU need to answer the question.

You’re not getting off that easy, pal.

 

[Dokimas]

NOPE. JESUS did:
Luke 10:16
“Whoever listens to you (the Church) listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”* - Jesus Christ*

You’re saying Jesus said I’ve rejected Him. Correct?

 

[Dokimas]

Hey YOU’RE the one who said there is a list.
YOU need to answer the question.

You’re not getting off that easy, pal.

Changing what you said, are you?

You told me to go first implying you’d go last. You said I failed. I agreed. Your turn or aren’t you a man of your word?

 

[elvisman]

You’re saying Jesus said I’ve rejected Him. Correct?

Yup. By rejecting his Church - you have rejected him.

These are people spoken of in Matt. 7:21-23 who claimed that they served him:
**"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. **
**Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ **Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers."

---

Again - HIS words, not mine.

 

[Dokimas]

**

You’re not getting off that** easy, pal.

Seems calling me ‘pal’ is being sarcastic.

If I’ve rejected Jesus, I won’t be drawn to Him by your interactions of sarcasm, unkindness, false accusation you show here on CAF.

 

[elvisman]

Changing what you said, are you?

You told me to go first implying you’d go last. You said I failed. I agreed. Your turn or aren’t you a man of your word?

Oh, Doki - if you don’t know the list - just admit it.**

No need to keep plaing your silly games. YOU claimed there was a list and now you can’t come up with one.

 

[Dokimas]

**Yup. By rejecting his Church **- you have rejected him.

These are people spoken of in Matt. 7:21-23 who claimed that they served him:
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers."

---

Again - HIS words, not mine.

Against your understanding doesn’t necessarily mean it’s again what Jesus said.

 

[Dokimas]

**Oh, Doki - if you don’t know the list - just admit it.

No need to keep plaing your silly games. YOU claimed there was a list and now you can’t come up with one.

You don’t seem to read with understanding.

I’ll wait for you do make good on your word. I won’t hold my breath though.

 

[PRmerger]

All purging of our sins was done on the cross. We avail ourselves of that purging sacrifice through FAITH in what He did.

It would seem that in your paradigm, Richard, **you must do something **in order to benefit from the atoning blood of Christ. You must make some sort of confession of faith.

At least in the Catholic understanding, *purgatory is more consistent with your belief that one does NOTHING in order to merit one’s salvation. * All one did was die.

Ah, the irony!

 

[PRmerger]

Your example is faulty PR. You ask if this person steals a pack of gum and is unrepentant, will this person be allowed into the kingdom of heaven. In your very restricted example, you seem to be assumning that this is the only sin that he is guilty of.

Well, of course, Richard! This is YOUR paradigm in which a Christian is “perfect”, remember?

This example illustrates perfectly the absurdity of your paradigm that once a person says he’s a Christian he’s perfect.

Even you can see that it makes no sense to say that a person who steals a pack of gum will go to hell.

Yet, without purgatory, that is your only option. Your god sends someone to hell for stealing a pack of gum. For clearly a perfect Christian who has sinned yet not repented CAN NOT ENTER HEAVEN.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
Paul thought that he and Barnabas should not take John Mark and Barnabus thought they should. That caused them (Paul and Barnabus) to part ways.

There are **essential beliefs **that make us true believers. There are areas of misunderstandings by ALL of us which don’t matter eternally to God. Of course, this is my opinion as I read the Bible and observe God’s church. Early Jewish Christians thought the Gentile converst should be circumsized. Their belief was wrong. That wrong understanding didn’t make them non-Christian.

Doki,

I do not mean to gang up on you,but you did mention ‘essential’ beliefs and honestly I too have not read them here. If you did provide a list or simply mentioned a few,may you please post them?

Peace brother!

BTW: I am not going to attack your ‘essential’ beliefs, I just want to understand it from your Christian tradition…that is all…I promise.

 

[PRmerger]

This is an immense gift that Christ offers to us, but a gift has two parts. In order for it to be a valid gift it MUST be accepted and the acceptance of this gift can only be accomplished if we repent. Do you really think that God is going to give us the gift of salvation if we are unrepentant?

That is very Catholic of you to say that, Richard!

 

[PRmerger]

There are essential beliefs that make us true believers. There are areas of misunderstandings by ALL of us which don’t matter eternally to God

This is a man-made tradition not supported by Scripture.

[SIGN1]Scripture does NOT say that there are essential beliefs that make us true believers.[/SIGN1]

Of course, this is my opinion as I read the Bible and observe God’s church

Well, you are right about this one, Dokimas.

And it has as much weight as if you said, “In my opinion brides ought to wear red instead of white.”

 

[PRmerger]

Jn 3:16
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Even the demons believe, and shudder.

Oh, but it does PR because if the sins are not purged at the moment of our acceptance, it means that we are not justified in the eyes of God and if we are not justified in the eyes of God at the moment of our acceptance of Jesus sacrifice then it means that acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice does not save at all or in the case of the CC’s teaching a purging of sins must occur that is in addition to Christ’s sacrifice but is neccessary in order to make Christ’s sacrifice valid. This is NOT what the bible teaches.

See! You do believe in purgatory!

Except, peculiarly, you believe that this purgation is made when we DO something.

The Catholic paradigm is that we **do NOTHING **to make this purgation.

Death happens. God purges.

God. Not man. Not by a man making a confession or doing some act of faith, walking down to an altar for an altar call (which, is also not in the Bible).

 

[PRmerger]

Do you equate faith and belief always?

No.

I already discussed that there are many different kinds of faith.

 

[PRmerger]

Gal2
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Jn14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So are you saying that these verses are not true?

I give a hearty to those words given to us by the Holy Spirit via the Catholic Church, which declared them theopneustos so you would know they were inspired.

Catholics take ALL of Scripture, reading it with the faith that was committed to the Apostles.

 

[PRmerger]

Go back and read what I’ve said. I’ve made it clear what I think some of the essential are.

I want to know what verses in Scripture tell you it’s an essential belief.