Non Catholic looking for a discussion on your beliefs

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Reformedbaptist

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If you only want to answer something specific just start with the number. I use a number of big theology words, that I’ve learned in my own research and from my dad and youth pastor I hope that doesn’t scare anyone off from taking a crack at this. And yes you read that right youth pastor I’m in highschool and am interested to learn hope this doesn’t inrage anyone, I doubt it will but can’t be too careful in 2019 clown-world.

1)So how do you justify the Pope in scripture.
2) What is your belief on Total Depravity( I would be interested in a discussion on TULIP in general with a Catholic).
3)How does purgatory work.
4) How is praying to patron saints and Mary not idolatry.
5) How do you justify the baptism of infants(since they do not comprehend their own existence much less an unseen God).
6) What are your beliefs on free-will.
6.2) How does free-will not limit the sovereign authority of God over his creation.
7) How do you justify continueism( or the idea that the powers of Christ and the Apostles continue on to this day).
8) How is the Catholic Church the first church if in the letters of the Apostle Paul he writes about how the church should be established there is not supposed to be a singular church leader and all the churches are addressed as separate churches but one in Christ.
9) How can the Pope claim to be infallible, if so then his sermons(I don’t know if that’s the word you use) should be biblical Canon.
10) Why do you call your priest father when in Matthew 23:9 that is forbidden.
 
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  1. we don’t pray to them. We pray for the intercession of Mary and the saints. It’s like asking a friend to pray for you.
Re number 10 billions of people call their dads father. And there is a whole profession where people are called teacher.
 
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Thanks for your response, I’ve got more questions if that’s ok , again thanks for your time.

So I believe in Heaven you glorify God, like that’s it. So why would another believer that’s busy fulfilling man’s purpose stop to talk to God for you. Isn’t the point of Jesus to bridge the gap between God an man and create a nations of priest with a personal connection to God. Also how far does that extend could I pray to my Great grandpa in the same way?
 
4.As Jesus says, no one gets to the Father except threw Him. This is a role Unique to Him.
Praying to the Saints aren’t necessary to salvation, just EXTREMELY helpful.
In heaven we all do glorify God, and what better way than to pray to Him? They don’t stop Glorifying God, because praying for those on earth and trying to help our brothers and sisters.
The reason we pick saints to ask for intercession is because we know they are in heaven ( whether its the Church saying so or miracles the process has changed)
 
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  1. Parents have authority over their children. Baptizing is a great work of mercy that should be done as early as possible. Comprehension of ones existence isn’t a prerequisite of Baptism.
 
Ok so I understand baptism is a sacrament for Catholics if baptism can happen to a non believer(I believe infants are non-believer equivalent) then how is it a sacrament? Or maybe a better question is what are the prerequisites to baptism?
 
Welcome!
First, know that you have learned many things that are simply not true. Things are not always as they appear to be.
  1. Do you have a problem with the Eastern Orthodox Christians? If not, why not? They are 95+% identical.
  2. Get a copy of Catholicism for Dummies and begin reading. EVERYTHING in Catholicism is 100% consistent with the ENTIRETY of scripture. The Church does not pull out verses here and there and form theology around them.
  3. Where does Jesus teach that the bible is a sole rule of anything? He did not and does not.
  4. Where does Jesus teach that anything written is to be used in the propagation of the faith? He did not and He does not.
  5. Remember from your bible that Christ gave the Church the power of binding and loosing.
Binding and loosing. Ponder that.

He said “Whataver” - that covers a lot of territory.

Have you been reading Jack Chick?
 
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I’ll try and use an allegory to explain it.

I was born in the United States, therefore I am subject to the laws and authority of the United States. I wasn’t given the choice to deny my citizenship at a certain age.

A child born to Catholics parents would be subject to the laws and authority of the parents granted through the Church. Parents are obligated to raise their children in the Faith.

The subject of Infant Baptism really comes down to a matter of authority. Once you understand Catholics and authority a lot of our doctrines can be better understood.
 
#5

Lev. 12:3 - The circumcision of eight-day old babies was the way of entering into the Old Covenant.

Col. 2:11-12 - Baptism is the new “circumcision” for the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults.

Mt. 18:2-5 - Jesus says unless we become like children we cannot enter into heaven. Therefore, why would they be excluded from baptism?

Acts. 16:15,33;18:8; 1Cor. 1:16 – Whole households were baptized. Therefore, none who resided in the house were excluded. All, including infants were born-again in Christ.

Eph. 1:1,6:1 - Paul addresses the “saints” of the Church, and among these were the children he exhorted to obedience. Children become saints of the Church only through baptism.

“And many, both men and women, who have been Christ’s disciples from childhood, remain pure and at the age of sixty or seventy years…”
St. Justin Martyr, First Apology (A.D. ~110-165)

“For He came to save all through means of Himself–all, I say, who through Him are born again to God–infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men.”
St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies (A.D. ~180)

“And they shall baptise the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family.”
St. Hippolytus of Rome, Apostolic Tradition (A.D. ~215)

“For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too.”
Origen, Homily on Romans (A.D. ~244)
 
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Ok. That makes a lot of sense I still disagree with the basic concept but that you for contributing.
 
You conflate children and infants which isn’t what I said. I was going to explain the new circumcision is not literal but I believe Catholic take most of scripture literally. And if you read the context around Matthew 18 it speaks of the position and mindset of the children not age. Thank you for answering and allowing me to bounce thoughts off of you.
 
Thanks for your response though it seems to be more a critique then answers.
1)I do have issues with the Orthodox but this being a Catholic site that’s why I was asking. My interest is from a friend of mine who recently converted.
2) I ask about total depravity because it is in the begining and is a fundamental issue as being the origin of sin.
3) If the Bible is the Word of the LORD and the LORD is the creater then wouldn’t it make sense he has sold authority? And his word is that authority. And I was just asking the specifics of how it functions not the justification of purgatory.
4)refer above to 3
5)I understand what you’re referring to and we disagree on what I believe your saying. I think my question may have been confusing I’m more asking how it’s justified to baptise someone who doesn’t understand what it’s fingers are much less God.

And I actually have been reading Dr. Luther, Calvin, And C.S. Lewis. I haven’t heard of Jack Chick, thank you for the recommendation though.
 
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Honestly Hicks seems like to think fear wind and pushes that salvation is to get heaven, not to glorify God. Wouldn’t recommend. But Dr. Martin Luther’s bondage of the will is a good read if for nothing else seeing another point of view which is my point in being here
 
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Reformedbaptist:
I’ll start with #10 and answer what I have time to get to here. Matthew 23:9 Jesus is using hyperbole…extreme exaggeration to make a point. You can find more hyperbole from Jesus in Matt 5 when Jesus tells you to gouge out your eye that causes you to sin. I’ve yet to meet a protestant Christian who gouged out their eyes or cut off their own hands. Paul refers to himself as father. 1 Corinthians 4:14-15. Surely Paul is not violating literal scriptural commands… and neither are we.

#1. Jesus hands the keys to Peter in Matthew 16. Jesus singles out Peter again in John 21. And again in Luke’s gospel, chapter 22. Jesus changes Peter’s name which is a really big deal. (See Abram). Read the first 10 chapters of Acts…it’s Peter, Peter and more Peter.

#3 – Purgatory. This is a biggie. Rev 21 – Nothing unclean shall enter heaven. You are totally justified at the point of Baptism…or, in your theology, accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior. but you are still sinning. You are not ready to see the beatific vision. So something happens after death…1 Cor 3:15 gives us a glimpse of it. Whatever it is, it is not pleasant. Spirits BECOME perfected as Heb 12:23 tells us. If I’m playing baseball and accidentally break your window…I can say sorry and probably you will be ok with that. But there is still the damage done to your window. So rather than just give a flimsy apology i will also have your window replaced to try my best to undo the damage i caused. That’s what sin does-- it causes damage. If I hammer a nail into wood…then remove the nail(sin) there is still a hole in said wood. Purgatory is about filling those gaps and perfecting your soul. It’s the mercy of God in Christ Jesus.

#5 infant Baptism. We bring children into the covenant early just as the Jews did with circumcision. Yes, there is a age of reason…we call it confirmation(ACTS 8:14-17) which completes baptism. Jesus said let the little children come to me. Matt 19.

#4 Saint prayer. Jesus has one body – not one in heaven and one on earth. Just one. United. I ask for the prayers of the Saints because the prayer of the righteous availeth much James 5:16. And the Saints are more alive and righteous than any of us currently on this planet. They have been made perfect Heb 12:23. It’s not idolatry because I have not made Gods out of them and never will. Neither would I deify you if i asked for your prayer.

8.) I don’t think Paul makes such a statement. Paul wanted Christians to respect all the leadership and stop pitting leaders against one another. The RCC is the first Church because we have the pedigree. We have a trail of succession that goes all the way back to Peter.

9.) The Pope is not impeccable. Only infallible when teaching solemn, official teachings on faith and morals. Does not happen that often.

I wont get too much into TULIP and free will and the differences in our theology… other than to say that Luther taught we are dung covered in snow. Well, in the RCC we essentially believe God takes that dung and transform it into a beautiful flower bed.
 
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  1. Praying to someone does not mean it is idolatry- it is asking someone to pray for you. It’s like going to a friend and say, “Hey, you know, I’ve been going through this. Can you pray for me?”
 
  1. If you read the gospels, you will see that Jesus gave St. Peter the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, and also He said to Peter: “And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.” (Mat 16:18). God has instituted His Church on Peter, and in Acts, Peter is instituted as the first leader of the Church.
  2. Baptism does not have a requirement to believe in the Gospel to be baptized. In our faith, receiving the Eucharist and Confirmation require someone to consent to receive them.
  3. Only when he proclaims something to be infallible. Remember, the Pope is a human being like us. He is not a superior being that rules over God.
 
Infant baptism: Where in Scripture does it say there are any age OR intelligence standards to being baptized? Please just show one example of this exclusion you hold to be your doctrine.

Your reasoning to object the Catholic doctrine on infant baptism seems to revovle around the notion that the person must be old enough to make the decision on their own, and an infant can not. That is to be expected since that is a Baptist tradition that began over 1500 years after Jesus. But if that is a true doctrine then by default it must include ALL people who can not reason, such as the mentally handicapped. How sad it is to think ANYONE who can not reason should be excluded from being baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, & the Holy Spirit.

I think your confusion runs a bit deeper though, because in the Baptist tradition baptism is just for show, a symbol, so why would Baptist parents do it?
 
I’m sure you will get some good answers here. I just wanted to suggest that you might get better responses if in the future you limited it to one or two questions per thread. Each thread on here is supposed to have one topic and you’ve brought up a dozen which is going to create a pretty disorganized thread and probably discourage some people from responding. Every one of your questions could take up a whole thread just on its own, and in fact we have had past threads on them (see my second paragraph).

Also, while like I said you will probably get some answers here, you can also use either Google or the forum search function and find a lot of past threads discussing pretty much everything you posted. For example, we have dozens of threads on praying to Mary and the saints if you are truly interested in reading Catholic views on the subject.

Finally, you will also get better answers if you post each question thread in the appropriate category. For example, threads asking “where in Scripture does it say XYZ” should go in the Apologetics/ Sacred Scripture category. There are people who only read certain categories and might not see a Scripture question if it’s over here rather than in Sacred Scripture.
 
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PLEASE RAISE ONLY ONE QUESTION AT A TIME. Each of your questions can take a whole thread in itself. Why don’t you close this one and create separate threads for each question. That way each question can be discussed in depth.
 
A Catholic friend of mine was dating a Protestant man in college who thought, “I’d like to marry her but I need to try and convert her first.” He went home for the summer and read the Catechism of the Catholic Church so he would know enough about Catholicism to know where to start persuading her of his theology. By the end of the book and the end of the summer he had converted himself. Seeing all the beliefs that make up Catholicism in their proper context and drawing from Scripture and Tradition, all he could say was this is the truth. He converted and they have 7 kids now.😆

As a young Catholic, I used to think the Catechism was more of a resource to hunt for specific answers about our beliefs, but I’d never just read it. I had reason to read it more as a book recently and was blown away by it’s beauty and clarity.

I challenge you to read it. It’s kind of huge, so this is a kind of huge challenge from a stranger. We could answer your questions as best we can point by point, but they are all just pieces of something larger. If for no other reason that for scholarly exercise and intellectual curiosity, read it with eyes for the big picture of what is being said. When it’s all done or even just a chapter or so in, you might even be able to help your youth minister who may be teaching kids things about Catholicism that he doesn’t realize are untrue.
 
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