Non-Catholic religions and abortion

[iamrefreshed]

Many other religions accept abortion in one form or another.

Mormonism allows it in cases of rape, incest or danger to mother.

Islam allows abortion up until birth if the mother is in danger.

Jews are somewhat vague but it’s generally accepted that if the mother is in danger it is accepted.

As we all know, numerous Christian denominations vary widely.

Yet catholics find it reprehensible on all accounts.

Why the difference?

A baby is a baby is a baby. Created by God.

Why would a child of rape not deserve to live?

 

[AgnosTheist]

A baby is a baby is a baby. Created by God.

Why would a child of rape not deserve to live?

IMO, a baby is only a baby if it is a person (one that has a personality, or a self-aware sentient mind). I dont think a very young embryo is already a person.

And in that case why should a rape victim & her spouse endure the pains & punishment of bearing & raising the child of her violator? Me, I love having a second child. But I can hardly afford it. If my wife gets raped and she wants to abort the result, i would be more than happy to agree with her. I would rather that we bear & raise the product of our own love.

 

[elvisman]

IMO, a baby is only a baby if it is a person (one that has a personality, or a self-aware sentient mind). I dont think a very young embryo is already a person.

And in that case why should a rape victim & her spouse endure the pains & punishment of bearing & raising the child of her violator? Me, I love having a second child. But I can hardly afford it. If my wife gets raped and she wants to abort the result, i would be more than happy to agree with her. I would rather that we bear & raise the product of our own love.

If your child wasn’t always a person - what was he/she?
**You’re not a baby anymore. I presume you’re an adult - who grew and changed. **
**The Church doesn’t look the same as it did when it started - it grew. **
The United States doesn’t look like it did before because it matured and grew.
You can’t have it both ways, Agnos. Either a person is a person from conception or it will never be a person. Just as a chicken’s egg that has not gone to full term contains a chicken - not a goat.
This is plight of those trapped in the flawed and convoluted ideas of moral relativism.
**Like the bumper sticker says, "If it’s not a baby - you’re not pregnant!"

 

[hasikelee]

Many other religions accept abortion in one form or another.

Mormonism allows it in cases of rape, incest or danger to mother.

Islam allows abortion up until birth if the mother is in danger.

Jews are somewhat vague but it’s generally accepted that if the mother is in danger it is accepted.

As we all know, numerous Christian denominations vary widely.

Yet catholics find it reprehensible on all accounts.

Why the difference?

A baby is a baby is a baby. Created by God.

Why would a child of rape not deserve to live?

Wiccans for life

Athiests for life

Gays for life

The people who are stripped of dignity most understand the importance of the right to life.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Mormonism allows it in cases of rape, incest or danger to mother.

Mormons believe that God created all souls before the earth was created. Every soul is waiting around for a chance at a body and life. Mormons believe that a soul has not experienced life until the body takes a breath. I was taught that the soul enters the body at birth, a moment before the first breath is taken. I have had some mormons say they were taught the same thing, and others tell me that it is not known for certain when a soul enters a body.

Mormons also believe in pre-destination, in the sense that every soul was assigned before the earth was created to what family and circumstances it will be born into. So if one pregnancy is ended, and God has a soul meant for that family, God will make certain that that soul makes it to where it is supposed to be.

In any case, the deciding factor whether or not a soul has experienced life is taking a breath in this world. So the decision to abort an embryo or fetus is sad, and not to be taken lightly, but mormons believe the soul that was meant for any particular family will get there, in one body or another. Whether the embryo or fetus died on its own, or is aborted, same outcome to a mormon. Whatever soul was meant for a body and didn’t make it into this world, that soul will be given another chance at life. Exactly where it was pre-determined to be.

In the case of a mother in danger, the mother is already living, a soul in this world. The mormon belief is that the embryo or fetus is not. By this reasoning they believe there is no reason to risk the life of the mother when you believe that you could become pregnant again, and get the very same soul that was meant to be in one embryo or fetus, in another.

With rape and incest, the difficulty (and a very true difficulty) is seen that the psychological stress is too much for the mother and so the living, breathing mother is given precedence. Again with the belief that whatever soul that was meant for that body, will make it to where it is supposed to be in another.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Mormons believe that God created all souls before the earth was created. Every soul is waiting around for a chance at a body and life. Mormons believe that a soul has not experienced life until the body takes a breath. I was taught that the soul enters the body at birth, a moment before the first breath is taken. I have had some mormons say they were taught the same thing, and others tell me that it is not known for certain when a soul enters a body.

Mormons also believe in pre-destination, in the sense that every soul was assigned before the earth was created to what family and circumstances it will be born into. So if one pregnancy is ended, and God has a soul meant for that family, God will make certain that that soul makes it to where it is supposed to be.

In any case, the deciding factor whether or not a soul has experienced life is taking a breath in this world. So the decision to abort an embryo or fetus is sad, and not to be taken lightly, but mormons believe the soul that was meant for any particular family will get there, in one body or another. Whether the embryo or fetus died on its own, or is aborted, same outcome to a mormon. Whatever soul was meant for a body and didn’t make it into this world, that soul will be given another chance at life. Exactly where it was pre-determined to be.

In the case of a mother in danger, the mother is already living, a soul in this world. The mormon belief is that the embryo or fetus is not. By this reasoning they believe there is no reason to risk the life of the mother when you believe that you could become pregnant again, and get the very same soul that was meant to be in one embryo or fetus, in another.

With rape and incest, the difficulty (and a very true difficulty) is seen that the psychological stress is too much for the mother and so the living, breathing mother is given precedence. Again with the belief that whatever soul that was meant for that body, will make it to where it is supposed to be in another.

Then why limit it only to the cases of rape, incest or mothers danger?

I don’t understand. If God will get the soul where it belongs why not abortion at will?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Then why limit it only to the cases of rape, incest or mothers danger?

I don’t understand. If God will get the soul where it belongs why not abortion at will?

You know, I have wondered the same thing myself. I think it comes down to the mormon belief that God has souls determined for a family, and that if you just opened up the gates to abortion at will, there would be a lot of souls not going to where God intended them to be.

But then, thinking along those lines, mormons are not against birth control. So really I don’t know. Like so many things mormon you can’t reason out an answer. It will always come down to…this is what the prophet says. The mormon prophet says abortion is alright in those circumstances. I believe that is the final answer that you would get from a mormon.

 

[RebeccaJ]

You know, I have wondered the same thing myself. I think it comes down to the mormon belief that God has souls determined for a family, and that if you just opened up the gates to abortion at will, there would be a lot of souls not going to where God intended them to be.

But then, thinking along those lines, mormons are not against birth control. So really I don’t know. Like so many things mormon you can’t reason out an answer. It will always come down to…this is what the prophet says. The mormon prophet says abortion is alright in those circumstances. I believe that is the final answer that you would get from a mormon.

Also, mormons believe in personal revelation. A true believing mormon would not get a abortion at will. They would pray, and most likely fast, and get counsel from their bishop. And then go with what God has revealed them to do.

I know of mormon couples who have been advised by their drs to abort a pregnancy, in concern for the mother, and they have not because they believed God answered their prayers with the direction that an abortion was not the correct decision.

 

[hasikelee]

Wow, rebecca, thanks for that insightful line of posts!

I think abortion debates founded on religion are some of the toughest, and that those people who believe in abortion for religious reasons are almost impossible to convince otherwise.

It is easier to collapse the flaky arguments such as choice, blobs of tissue, etc etc then to change someone’s culture and idea of God and man.

Your posts were very helpful in showing how someone can form a conscious to accept or even choose abortion.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Wow, rebecca, thanks for that insightful line of posts!

I think abortion debates founded on religion are some of the toughest, and that those people who believe in abortion for religious reasons are almost impossible to convince otherwise.

It is easier to collapse the flaky arguments such as choice, blobs of tissue, etc etc then to change someone’s culture and idea of God and man.

Your posts were very helpful in showing how someone can form a conscious to accept or even choose abortion.

Thanks.

I like your count down…congratulations.

 

[dolphinlove]

A subject close to my own heart.
I could go on for hours for the reasons not to have an abortion.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

IMO, a baby is only a baby if it is a person (one that has a personality, or a self-aware sentient mind). I dont think a very young embryo is already a person…

But does an embryo have a soul? This is a subject that is confusing for me.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

Do Jews really think that abortion is o.k.? There was recently a letter to the editor in the paper by a local Rabbi (moderate Judaism, I would say). He said that Jews don’t really have a problem with abortion for a number of reasons. He also was upset that anyone would describe abortion as genocide or a holocaust - especially like the Holocaust of WW2. He then went on to say that even beyond comparing it to the Holocaust, it was just a couple of killings and not like an entire people for genocide. At that point I wondered that at 48 million and climbing, how many are needed to label this as a holocaust (it’s already 5x bigger than the Holocaust and over 120x bigger than Darfur or Yugoslavia)?

I must say that his statement of his and Judaism’s views on abortion have made me lose a great deal of respect for him and (if his statement of Judaism’s views are correct) modern Judaism.

 

[notself]

But does an embryo have a soul? This is a subject that is confusing for me.

Buddhist believe that life occurs when the nucleus of the egg is merged with the nucleus of the sperm. Embryologists say that this happens about 24 hours after intercourse. The morning after pill would not be considered abortion if it was taken withing 24 hours of sex because the union of genetic material will not have taken place before that time. After that time it would be considered abortion/killing.

Contraception would be OK (condoms, the OrthoNovum contraceptive pill, diaphrams, IUD’s, etc are all OK)

Birth control pills or patches that prevent the implantation of the embryo would be considered abortion/killing.

For an excellent site on the development of the embryo through birth, there is this. Click on the little embryo for information on each stage of development.

visembryo.com/baby/index.html

At 10 weeks the chart information states:

Head and Neck
Basic brain structure of the fetus is complete and now the brain mass rapidly increases. Sockets for all twenty teeth are formed in the gum lines. Face has human appearance - one example is the nasolacrimal grooveforming on the upper lip. Separate folds of the mouth fuse together forming the palate. Early facial hair follicles begin to develop.
Thorax
Vocal cords form in larynx and fetus can make sounds.

Abdomen
Intestines have migrated into abdomen from the umbilical cord. Digestive tract muscles are functional and practice contraction. Nutrient-extracting villi line the now folded intestines. The liver starts to secrete bile, a thick, brown-green liquid containing bile salts, bile pigments, cholesterol and inorganic salts. The bile is stored in the gall bladder. Development of thyroid and pancreas are complete. Pancreas starts to produce insulin.

Pelvis
Genitalia begin to show female characteristics (labium minus, urogenital groove, labium majoris) and male characteristics (glans penis, urethral groove, scrotum). Neither male nor female genitalia are fully formed.

Limbs
Fingernails begin to grow from nail beds.

Skin
Fetus develops reflexes and the skin is very sensitive.

Show this site to your pro choice friends so they can see that a 10 week old fetus is a baby. This site is not affiliated with any religious group.

 

[Delraek]

Even if someone believes that a tiny preborn human being does not have a soul and is not valued by God, why would they think it’s ok to rip this little one apart?

My understanding is that these little ones already have a nervous system and can feel pain! This is very evident in the “silent scream” videos.

I don’t understand how anyone could be so cruel as to think it’s ok to literally rip a livng thing (human or animal) into pieces, esp since they can feel this!!

Please check out this website, esp if you think there should be exceptions: abortionno.org/

 

[Dauphin]

Reading through these posts, it makes me seriously glad that we have the Church to act as a beacon of truth in the defense of human dignity. Without it, our own subjective morality reigns. The relativist garbage some religions propose is stunning.

 

[ncgolf]

IMO, a baby is only a baby if it is a person (one that has a personality, or a self-aware sentient mind). I dont think a very young embryo is already a person.

And in that case why should a rape victim & her spouse endure the pains & punishment of bearing & raising the child of her violator? Me, I love having a second child. But I can hardly afford it. If my wife gets raped and she wants to abort the result, i would be more than happy to agree with her. I would rather that we bear & raise the product of our own love.

I believe your post defines what is called the slippery slope. Detailing what constitutes a person allows for any sort of action against humans not meeting those qualities. Nazi Germany had the same sort of logic, only their’s was German ancestory, blue eyes and blonde hair … you see where this leads. I see no difference between your rationalization and Nazi. Not saying you are anywhere near being a Nazi but the thought process is the same.

If you had to say a young embryo was not a person … some sort of scientific analysis on personhood would have to ensure we were not making a mistake. You would have to be 100 percent sure it was not a person, if not the safe route is to assume it is a person until otherwise proven. We do this all the time when we are unsure … we usually take the safe route.

You cannot fight evil (rape) with another evil (murder). It has to stop somewhere and can only be fought with love.

 

[snowfly]

IMO, a baby is only a baby if it is a person (one that has a personality, or a self-aware sentient mind). I don’t think a very young embryo is already a person.

Life begins at conception, some of these babies are so well formed when they’re murdered, it would be hard to tell one from a newborn except one is dead and the other is living.

In many cases the heart is beating and they’re sucking their thumbs, until it’s so cruelly ripped from it’s mother and it beats no more.

You overcome evil with good, and killing the child is trying to overcome evil with evil, it don’t work that way, the child is innocent, and sometimes the mother, life is a better alternative to death.

And in that case why should a rape victim & her spouse endure the pains & punishment of bearing & raising the child of her violator? Me, I love having a second child. But I can hardly afford it. If my wife gets raped and she wants to abort the result, i would be more than happy to agree with her. I would rather that we bear & raise the product of our own love.

I hope this never happens, but in the case of rape victims, there is always the choice of putting the child up for adoption, and giving childless couples a chance to raise a child as their own, it seems a better alternative to murdering a child and putting our immortal souls in danger.

 

[AgnosTheist]

I believe your post defines what is called the slippery slope. Detailing what constitutes a person allows for any sort of action against humans not meeting those qualities. Nazi Germany had the same sort of logic, only their’s was German ancestory, blue eyes and blonde hair … you see where this leads. I see no difference between your rationalization and Nazi. Not saying you are anywhere near being a Nazi but the thought process is the same.

wow what a stretch. And you see no difference between the absence of a mind (my point) and racial features?

If you had to say a young embryo was not a person … some sort of scientific analysis on personhood would have to ensure we were not making a mistake. You would have to be 100 percent sure it was not a person, if not the safe route is to assume it is a person until otherwise proven. We do this all the time when we are unsure … we usually take the safe route.

the presence of a mind defines a person. does fertilized eggs have a mind? does very young embryos have a mind? I am 100% sure that the answer to those are NO & NO.

You cannot fight evil (rape) with another evil (murder). It has to stop somewhere and can only be fought with love.

that only sounds good on paper. its entirely different when it actually happens to you. the unwanted child of a brutal serial rapist, no way.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Life begins at conception

Life begins at the testicles. The question is, what kinds of life? Sperm life, Egg life, and Embryo life is not human life. Human life begins with a human mind.