Non Catholic Spouse and Birth Control

[underacloud]

Did you read my original post…I want to get a tubal ligation, I’m not asking my husband to do anything. However, he is acting as if my decision to get a Tubal Ligation is going to put him in a state of sin.

I am frustrated as my pregnancies were extremely difficult, and I had both Post Partum Depression and Anxiety after both. It took almost 9 months after my first child to get my head on remotely straight again, and about 7 months after my second. Both times came with periods of horrible anxiety attacks. I never want to go back to that place mentally again, because it was awful. I do not trust NFP, and see no point in it as I am 100% DONE with having anymore kids.

So my options are abstinence for the next 20 some odd years till I am sure I’m through menopause or a Tubal ligation.

Yes, I did read it. And I answered your question directly. If you choose to get a tubal ligation, you do not put your husband in any state of sin. See below for the official answer.

I will not (can not) encourage you to get a tubal ligation, but you have a clear answer to your question.

1. Special difficulties are presented by cases of cooperation in the sin of a spouse who voluntarily renders the unitive act infecund. In the first place, it is necessary to distinguish cooperation in the proper sense, from violence or unjust imposition on the part of one of the spouses, which the other spouse in fact cannot resist.46, 561).] This cooperation can be licit when the three following conditions are jointly met:

when the action of the cooperating spouse is not already illicit in itself;47
when proportionally grave reasons exist for cooperating in the sin of the other spouse;
when one is seeking to help the other spouse to desist from such conduct (patiently, with prayer, charity and dialogue; although not necessarily in that moment, nor on every single occasion).

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/family/documents/rc_pc_family_doc_12021997_vademecum_en.html

 

[underacloud]

We can agree to disagree. Encouraging the endangerment of the life of a woman with a history of severe pregnancy complications is not Catholic teaching. Neither is encouraging abstinence resulting in separation and divorce. The Catechism doesn’t operate in a vacuum.

Actually, encouraging abstinence (total or partial) when pregancy is a danger to life is *precisely *the Catholic teaching. We all have our crosses to bear.

It takes a compassionate, qualified priest to address nuances and specific unique circumstances. I’ve already raised more than sufficient explanation to recommend that the original poster seeks competent advice from a Catholic priest, and not from a public forum from anonymous “Catholics” proclaiming to know the Catechism.

Church teaching on matters described as intrinsically evil does not bend to “unique circumstances”. The correct Church teaching has been explained in this thread. You are right that a good priest (and one loyal to Church teaching) would be able to help the OP and her husband work through these issues. The parameters of their options have been well explained in this thread though, so I think the OP has received the answers she wanted.

PS that answer, in my post above, is actually very compasionate and very appropriate to this exact circumstance.

 

[StGerardMajella]

Actually, encouraging abstinence (total or partial) when pregancy is a danger to life is precisely the Catholic teaching. We all have our crosses to bear.

If effective permanent abstinence leads to separation and divorce, as it very well could in this specific family’s circumstance, then this is not Catholic teaching. The Church does not encourage divorce, nor does it encourage factors causal to divorce.

Church teaching on matters described as intrinsically evil does not bend to “unique circumstances”.

The Catechism doesn’t go into specific detail about particular individual circumstances. You cannot (with any degree of seriousness) paint with a broad brush utilizing your own personal interpretation of edicts from the Vatican.

That is where the role of the priest, who has had years of training and education in theological matters, is paramount. As in legal matters, each situation is unique and needs to be weighed carefully. The Catechism is simply a guide. It does not provide nor explain to any degree of detail responses to specific circumstances particular to an individual.

PS than answer, in my post above, is actually very compasionate and very appropriate to this exact circumstance.

We must have different definitions of compassion.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

We can agree to disagree. Encouraging the endangerment of the life of a woman with a history of severe pregnancy complications is not Catholic teaching. Neither is encouraging abstinence resulting in separation and divorce. The Catechism doesn’t operate in a vacuum.

It takes a compassionate, qualified priest to address nuances and specific unique circumstances. I’ve already raised more than sufficient explanation to recommend that the original poster seeks competent advice from a Catholic priest, and not from a public forum from anonymous “Catholics” proclaiming to know the Catechism.

I would contact your local Archdiocese and ask to speak to a priest if you want the most accurate counsel.

Do you hold the position that ABC can be used if it is dangerous to be pregnant.

It is unfortunate that some people misunderstand the “medical” use part of the equation. Most often this is used when prescribing the “Pill” The pill can be used to treat a variety of medical conditions from menstrual issues to acne. When the Church speaks to this use of any medicine, it uses the theology of double effect.
sites.saintmarys.edu/~incandel/doubleeffect.html

So I ask again, Do you hold the position that one may do evil to achieve good? Can one use ABC if a pregnancy is life threatening?

 

[underacloud]

The Catechism doesn’t go into specific detail about particular individual circumstances. You cannot (with any degree of seriousness) paint with a broad brush utilizing your own personal interpretation of edicts from the Vatican.

The Catechism says this:

2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).

No personal interpretation needed. No unique circumstances that aren’t covered. It’s very clear. As is the quote from the Vademecum for Confessors - a document directly intended to guide priests in such circumstances.

Your implication that they might find a priest who will approve their use of ABC is the only thing out of place in this thread.

 

[brbgrl]

I haven’t read all the responses, but wanted to say I completely sympathize with your difficult pregnancies and post partum struggles. We all have different crosses to bear, and I’ve definitely had a similar experience. NFP is not all fun and games, but I find it the only morally appropriate way to avoid a pregnancy. I would encourage you to look into Creighton Model (if you are using another method). It helps to identify and treat hormone problems that can contribute to difficult pregnancies and post-partum depression (using Napro technology). While nothing is perfect, this is what has gotten us through, and despite all my difficulties, I’m still open to life. I would also have your husband take more responsibility (mine asks me my “results” every night and does all the charting). Creighton model doesn’t use temps which is nice too. Also, check out the book “A Sinner’s Guide to NFP”. It’s a great, quick read about the struggles of NFP.

 

[StGerardMajella]

So I ask again, Do you hold the position that one may do evil to achieve good? Can one use ABC if a pregnancy is life threatening?

The only position I hold is that the original poster should consult a competent, qualified Catholic priest, and not take the advice of complete strangers on a public forum who have no legitimate authority to interpret the Catechism.

Your implication that they might find a priest who will approve their use of ABC is the only thing out of place in this thread.

I made no such implication. It is up to the priest to determine the best course of action, not laypersons interpreting the Catechism from their armchair.

The priest may have to conduct multiple interviews and discussions with the family to come to an appropriate conclusion and recommendation. He could not do so over an anonymous public forum.

The Catechism says this:

Unfortunately, quotes from the Catechism do not speak to this particular individual’s specific situation and circumstances. The Catechism provides general guidance to the billions of Catholics around the world as to Catholic teaching and beliefs, but it does not address specific individuals and the nuances of their situation.

Again, only a competent, qualified Catholic priest can provide the necessary guidance in this situation.

 

[underacloud]

I made no such implication. It is up to the priest to determine the best course of action, not laypersons interpreting the Catechism from their armchair.

The priest may have to conduct multiple interviews and discussions with the family to come to an appropriate conclusion and recommendation. He could not do so over an anonymous public forum.

Your implication is that it is a possibility.

It is not.

No priest needs to know any details about the couple, the specifics of the circumstances or medical issues, etc. Any faithful Catholic priest will tell her what the Church teaches - the contraception is intrinsically immoral - never to be approved. You seem to think there is room for exceptions and dispensations. There is not. The wording in all Church documents is crystal clear. Contraception/sterlisation is intrinsically wrong.

The OP can read more here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=919702

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=43152

w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae.html

 

[underacloud]

StGerardMajella, please see this for clarification from Fr Serpa (a competent, qualified Catholic priest, as you want):

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=442173

Fr. Vincent Serpa: “There are no exceptions regarding contraception.”

 

[MamaJewel]

Just an honest question here: are there any medical provisions that the church would allow the couple to not practice an openness to life? I know the church allows the pill or hormonal types of birth control if medically necessary, can the same be true for avoiding pregnancy if it were medically unsafe/would pose a serious health risk if the woman was to become pregnant?

With the advancement of technology, doctors will perform an ablation instead of a hysterectomy in certain cases. Following this procedure, the uterus is not capable of sustaining fetal life to term. Pregnancy after an ablation is usually deadly to the fetus and puts the mother’s life at great risk (uterine rupture). So, many doctors will not do an ablation without having some type of sterilization in place.

The national Catholic Bioethics Center told me that a tubal for the sake of an ablation currently falls in a gray area. It isn’t that the mother is rejecting being open to life with the the tubal. The tubal is secondary to the ablation. Rather, the ablation prevents the mother from being open to life since it makes the uterus unable to support a growing fetus. (Even though the uterus is still there it loses its functional ability.)

 

[Rau]

This is one of the reasons I have decided c to leave the church, I converted in b 2011, I have been told on these forums that im wrong c to have a coil, it is for medical reasons and that at52 I should be open b to life, my husband is not a catholic, I have gone back to the protestant church. The catholic church seems to be obsessed with sexual matters

May I ask what medical condition a coil (IUD) treats?

As to “obsession” - I recall you previously posting that you purchased a Catechism. Look through it and estimate the proportion which addresses sexual matters. It’s tiny. It’s the world is obsessed with sexual matters…and the Church opposes a number of the elements of these obsessions.

 

[Rau]

If the original poster wants advice from a Catholic source on these matters, you should consult a qualified Catholic priest that can advise on the proper course of action according to Church teaching. After taking the priest’s counsel into advisement, you and your husband need to make your own private decisions regarding next steps forward.

There are clearly medical and psychological factors that are highly unique to your individual situation. Your questions can be easily taken out of context and responders do not necessarily have the medical, psychological, nor theological training to be giving advice on these matters.

Too often we hear these rather harsh “black or white” responses that go against the spirit and teaching of the Church as to what is and is not “moral”. If you want the Catholic perspective, you need to consult a professional, and a qualified Catholic priest should be able to give you straight, direct answers.

I would understand and agree with your answer if you are advising someone in a complex situation eg. a Catholic / non-Catholic marriage etc. However, the response given by Corki (and to which you are responding) was to the following question posed (in the context of Catholic teaching) by PrincessRenae (and I believe it is hypothetical):

*…I just wasn’t sure if pregnancy could be avoided by other means than NFP if the pregnancy were to definitely cause severe health issues. For instance, I have a friend who is married and a type one diabetic and her endocrinologist advised her that she should not get pregnant, so I wasn’t sure if they would have options besides NFP if they were Catholic.*This question is easily answered. Contraception - in Catholic moral teaching - is an “intrinsic evil”. That means it is always wrong to choose, no matter the circumstances. This is indeed “black and white”. No colour can be added - hence it is not difficult for anyone to confidently provide this answer to a person who asks.

There is nothing a priest can add to render the above answer (as provided in post #41 by Corki) invalid. There are some “special cases” where contraception can be OK.

I agree that a priest might be able to provide a range of other information, referral to medical advisers, comfort, general counselling, and so on. But Catholics ought to have no difficulty in answering simple questions such as that raised by PrincessRenae on the moral teaching of the Church.

 

[Rau]

…If pregnancy places the life of the mother in jeopardy, and **abstinence would dissolve the marriage **and destroy the family unit, then only a qualified Catholic priest can advise as to the proper course of action.

Ah, so you believe a priest might be able to say that, in these dreadful circumstances, it would be OK to use ABC to preserve the marriage?

 

[Rau]

…The original poster has exceptionally serious medical issues to which a pregnancy would place her life in danger. If she doesn’t take proactive steps, she could potentially suffer death or debilitating medical issues. Avoiding death and post-partum depression seem like legitimate medical “issues” to me following Fr. Serpa’s guidance.

Did you not notice the section in red in Fr. Serps’s response…

*The Church does allow such use so long as it is for medicinal purposes and the intention is not to contracept.*Taking a drug in order to avoid pregnancy is to exhibit an intention to “contracept”!! That there is a further goal of avoiding medical risks attached to pregnancy does not change this.

Taking a drug to treat a medical condition is obtaining medical treatment - that is the case Father Serpa was asked about and addressed.

One need by neither priest nor doctor to understand this.

 

[Rau]

…It is up to the priest to determine the best course of action, not laypersons interpreting the Catechism from their armchair.

The Catechism is written to guide ordinary people. It is not an advanced text for theologians.

Unfortunately, quotes from the Catechism do not speak to this particular individual’s specific situation and circumstances. The Catechism provides general guidance to the billions of Catholics around the world as to Catholic teaching and beliefs, but it does not address specific individuals and the nuances of their situation.

Why does the Church’s moral theology incorporate the notion of “intrinsic evils” - acts which are always, regardless of circumstances, wrong to choose? Abortion and Contraception are included among the intrinsically evil acts. Why? Because they are always wrong to choose, regardless of the circumstances!

What does this mean?

It means I cannot use ABC to stop my spouse abandoning me.

It means I cannot commit abortion because the continued pregnancy is life-threatening.

 

[Burdock]

I agree but anything other then NFP or total abstinence is sinful and wrong.

A Priest should give the couple every piece of information he can provide…getting the couple in touch with local NFP instructors, information on different NFP techniques, NAPRO technology…whatever he can do for them.

It is up to the couple to make some prayerful discernments and make a decision that is right for them and to follow through with that position.

But things are not that black and white. It is totally unreasonable to expect total abstinence or use only NFP is these circumstances, im sure jesus would think so too.

 

[Rau]

But things are not that black and white. It is totally unreasonable to expect total abstinence or use only NFP is these circumstances, im sure jesus would think so too.

Do you believe that there is any act at all which is always wrong to choose? Perhaps murdering a child? Abortion?

The Church teaches that some acts are ALWAYS wrong to choose - and contraception is one of those. I understand you may disagree.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

But things are not that black and white. It is totally unreasonable to expect total abstinence or use only NFP is these circumstances, im sure jesus would think so too.

Jesus was black and white. And some things are that black and white.
I expect faith and the attainment of heaven and to help a spouse achieve heaven should override lustful fulfillment and stimulation of body parts. Isn’t being Holy what marriage is all about?

Why are you sure Jesus would not think so? Be careful putting thoughts and ways in our Lords mouth and actions. Especially if they go beyond what the Church says about Jesus…

 

[Burdock]

May I ask what medical condition a coil (IUD) treats?

As to “obsession” - I recall you previously posting that you purchased a Catechism. Look through it and estimate the proportion which addresses sexual matters. It’s tiny. It’s the world is obsessed with sexual matters…and the Church opposes a number of the elements of these obsessions.

I was advised to have a mirena coil fitted as I was bleeding very heavily for 2 to 3 weeks each month and was severely anaemic.

 

[Burdock]

Jesus was black and white. And some things are that black and white.
I expect faith and the attainment of heaven and to help a spouse achieve heaven should override lustful fulfillment and stimulation of body parts. Isn’t being Holy what marriage is all about?

Why are you sure Jesus would not think so? Be careful putting thoughts and ways in our Lords mouth and actions. Especially if they go beyond what the Church says about Jesus…

So you are saying that if you contracept you will not get to heaven, what nonsense.