Non Catholic view of Mariology II

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I never heard of her. Why should I listen to her?
If you have never heard of Karen Armstrong, go to your public library. Several of her books are likely in the section on religion. Armstrong has written several New York Times best sellers on religion and is regarded as one of the most respected scholars in this field.

Because you have never heard of her shows how narrow your view is. You are poorly informed.
 
If you have never heard of Karen Armstrong, go to your public library. Several of her books are likely in the section on religion. Armstrong has written several New York Times best sellers on religion and is regarded as one of the most respected scholars in this field.
Very subjective evaluation.
Because you have never heard of her shows how narrow your view is. You are poorly informed.
I googled her and looked at where she is coming from. I never heard of her before because she is simply not important and not worth listening to. There are a lot of people writing out there, far more than anyone can keep up with.

We just had one poster on this thread banned. I guess, from your post, you are lining up to be next.
 
Best. Post. Ever. (on this subject)

👍

Dvdjs, this post of yours cannot be refuted in my humble opinion:

The idea within Eastern Orthodoxy that the sinless of the Theotokos stems, exclusively, from the Annunciation ir relatively new, - really a counterpoint to promulgation of the IC. (And the championing of the mulligan of Chrysostom about her ongoing sinfulness is even newer - an internet phenomenon.) But even if that idea were accepted it still means saving grace before the resurrection, thus vitiating that line of argumentation against the IC. Moreover, that idea is also contradicted by the liturgical teachings of the EOC, which make a clear statement of the purity of the Theotokos inspiring the awe of angels already at her entrance into the Temple. I see a pattern in which some EOs stretch so far to differentiate EO teachings from CC ones that they wind up contradicting their own teachings and traditions.
 
I think your argument may lead you to conclude that God is a monster because He does not save all.
What I believe is monstrous about this conception of God is that there are some souls that He has created that he predestines to hell. Only a horrific deity would create a soul that he knows for all eternity will never be permitted to love him or choose him.
As a Catholic you believe in predestination, which is of course what we are talking about here. How do you reconcile what you just wrote with predestination?
We proclaim predestination, but not double predestination, which is what you are arguing for.

Double predestination is contrary to the Word of God, contrary to logic and reason, and contrary to love and mercy.
 
Did you read the rest of my post?
Yes, I read your posts in their entirety.
God creates all souls.
Not all souls enter heaven.
Because, according to the Reformed position, they have no choice. ** No matter what they do, how much they love Him, they have been predestined for hell.**
Does that mean that God rejects those souls that do not enter heaven?
The Catholic position is that God does NOT reject those souls that do not enter heaven. They reject God.
By your argument then God is a monster.
How is the Catholic God a monster?

We view hell as the human person’s own choice. Not God’s predestination to which the person is inutile to act against.
I’m saying God chooses some, He does not choose others. The first is an action, the second is a non-action. Because of the fall, if God did nothing, we would all go to hell. But He chose to save some. His ‘not choosing others’ is not a deliberate choice: it is a non-action. You are calling God a monster because of something He did not do. Hmmmm.
He has predestined some to hell, in the Reformed position. That means that some individuals, no matter how much they love, or want to love, or choose to love, will not enter heaven.

That’s horrific.
 
Karen Armstrong in her “A History of God” makes the point that Jews are expected to follow the Law as presented in the Torah. There are 613 commandments (mitzvot) that Jews must follow to avoid sinning. Human nature being what it is, it is likely that no Jew can follow all 613 mitzvot. Therefore, Jews in general are sinners. They are pardoned for their sins through the process of atonement.

In the days of Jesus, whose mother Mary was a Jew, the Laws of the Torah were in effect. Thus, Jesus and Mary must have been sinners just like the rest of the Jews.
I think the best way to refute Karen Armstrong’s assertion is that “in general”, yes, the Jews were sinners.

In specific, no. There were exceptions. Millions of them, actually. To wit: Jesus, Mary, and the millions of Jewish babies/children/mentally challenged who were not bound by the law.
 
PR - when did this type of theological thought first begin…curious I am.
I think with Calvin. Although I see a lot of Muslim influence in the Reformed theology–Allah the most sovereign, who loves some, but not all. Allah is sovereign and man is incapable and helpless and despairing and depraved.
 
So when was Mary saved from corruption?
When she died and was glorified. Christ laid down the path for us. Unfortunately for us we are still born of this post-Fall world. So we need to die and then be resurrected before completing what Christ has set for all of us. That is why we need to strive to become good like God, because once we get to the Resurrection we will be in communion with God and if our human will is not aligned with God’s divine being, we will experience torment.
 
If you have never heard of Karen Armstrong, go to your public library. Several of her books are likely in the section on religion. Armstrong has written several New York Times best sellers on religion and is regarded as one of the most respected scholars in this field.

Because you have never heard of her shows how narrow your view is. You are poorly informed.
Karen Armstrong is an ex-Catholic. An ex-nun. As such, she is biased.

I have read 2 of her books. But she is not an authority on Catholicism.

It is peculiar indeed that you gauge how informed a person is on religious matters by one’s familiarity with Karen Armstrong. :whacky:
 
Karen Armstrong in her “A History of God” makes the point that Jews are expected to follow the Law as presented in the Torah. There are 613 commandments (mitzvot) that Jews must follow to avoid sinning. Human nature being what it is, it is likely that no Jew can follow all 613 mitzvot. Therefore, Jews in general are sinners. They are pardoned for their sins through the process of atonement.

In the days of Jesus, whose mother Mary was a Jew, the Laws of the Torah were in effect. Thus, Jesus and Mary must have been sinners just like the rest of the Jews.
You do realize that Jesus is both God and man, right?
 
When she died and was glorified. Christ laid down the path for us. Unfortunately for us we are still born of this post-Fall world. So we need to die and then be resurrected before completing what Christ has set for all of us. That is why we need to strive to become good like God, because once we get to the Resurrection we will be in communion with God and if our human will is not aligned with God’s divine being, we will experience torment.
So you believe that Mary was tainted by sin all of her life?

And when she carried the Divine Word Made Flesh, he dwelt for 9 months in a vessel like this?

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/...3vUJRjbejEKh1dUju6cevgi7qeAdMek1CZeF2UpQayfSL
 
👍

Dvdjs, this post of yours cannot be refuted in my humble opinion:

The idea within Eastern Orthodoxy that the sinless of the Theotokos stems, exclusively, from the Annunciation ir relatively new, - really a counterpoint to promulgation of the IC. (And the championing of the mulligan of Chrysostom about her ongoing sinfulness is even newer - an internet phenomenon.) But even if that idea were accepted it still means saving grace before the resurrection, thus vitiating that line of argumentation against the IC. Moreover, that idea is also contradicted by the liturgical teachings of the EOC, which make a clear statement of the purity of the Theotokos inspiring the awe of angels already at her entrance into the Temple. I see a pattern in which some EOs stretch so far to differentiate EO teachings from CC ones that they wind up contradicting their own teachings and traditions.
Why would the Orthodox need to invent things like this to object to the IC. The objection to the IC is not about when Mary sinned or if she sinned at all.
 
I’ll answer that after you answer my question that I posed first.

Do you believe that the Divine Word Made Flesh dwelt for 9 months in a sinful vessel?
God sanctifies everything He touches.
 
So when was Mary saved from corruption?
When she died and was glorified.
Incidentally, this is contrary to Orthodox teaching.

(Unless that has changed of late. It appears that their teaching on divorce and re-marriage has changed, so I suppose it’s possible that there has been a reversal of Orthodox teaching on Mary’s freedom from corruption.)
 
God sanctifies everything He touches.
So then Mary became sinless when the Holy Spirit overshadowed her.

Then she was saved from sin** before** the atoning death of Christ.

Or we can say Mary became sinless when God sanctified her and touched her conception. Still before the atoning death of Christ.

Same concept.

Except for some reason you object to the IC.

Odd.
 
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