Non Catholic view of Mariology II

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nmgauss said:
If you have never heard of Karen Armstrong, go to your public library. Several of her books are likely in the section on religion. Armstrong has written several New York Times best sellers on religion and is regarded as one of the most respected scholars in this field.

Because you have never heard of her shows how narrow your view is. You are poorly informed.
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Stephen King has written way more New York Times best sellers.

So because a person has not heard of her it shows a narrow point of view… so she is the center of gravity in religion… and all this time I thought it was God… What do you know?

Have you heard of Jesus Christ and His Apostles? How about Clement of Rome? How about Justin Martyr?, How about Ignatius of Antioch?, How about Polycarp?, How about Irenaeus?, How about Eusebius?, How about Cyprian? You have a couple of thousand of years to catch up if you haven’t.
 
PRmerger said:
Incidentally, this is contrary to Orthodox teaching.

(Unless that has changed of late. It appears that their teaching on divorce and re-marriage has changed, so I suppose it’s possible that there has been a reversal of Orthodox teaching on Mary’s freedom from corruption.)
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Nice potshot. If you want to do it this way, I have a long list of Catholic teaching that has changed a number of times in the Second Millennium alone.
 
PRmerger said:
So then Mary became sinless when the Holy Spirit overshadowed her.

Then she was saved from sin** before** the atoning death of Christ.

Or we can say Mary became sinless when God sanctified her and touched her conception. Still before the atoning death of Christ.

Same concept.

Except for some reason you object to the IC.

Odd.
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But that is the thing right, in Patristic teaching, just being cleansed from sin isn’t what saves you. St. Athanasius already laid it out for you and I already posted it in the last thread. Obviously, you didn’t read it. But here it is again:

Had it been a case of a trespass only, and not of a subsequent corruption, repentance would have been well enough; but when once transgression had begun men came under the power of the corruption proper to their nature and were bereft of the grace which belonged to them as creatures in the Image of God.
 
ConstantineTG said:
So what is the purpose of the IC?
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Perhaps I overlooked it If so my apologies in advance. Let’s assume you are right about original sin, and not talk about it: When did Mary become sinless, as per the Orthodox consensus? I understand, I think, that the Orthodox Church has never made any formal and definitivepronouncement on the matter
 
I sounds like I, or anyone for that matter, could belong to the Orthodox, like you, church and believe in the IC if I wanted to: "Bishop Kallistos Ware, Spaulding Lecturer of Eastern Christianity at Oxford University of England, has not been “corrected” by any Patriarch of Constantinople (nor his Synod of Bishops) for his words, (below) although other Orthodox bishops have termed the doctrine a heresy.

“The Orthodox Church calls Mary all-holy, immaculate, free from actual sin. The Orthodox Church has never made any formal and definitive pronouncement on the matter of the Immaculate Conception. In the past, individual Orthodox theologians have made statements that, if not definitively affirming the Doctrine of Immaculate Conception, at any rate closely approach it. But since 1854, the great majority of Orthodox reject it as necessary; as implying a false understanding of original sin; as suspecting the doctrine because it seems to separate Mary from the rest of the descendants of Adam and Eve, putting her in a different class. However, if an individual Orthodox today felt impelled to believe it, he could not be termed a heretic for doing so.”
 
ConstantineTG said:
But that is the thing right, in Patristic teaching, just being cleansed from sin isn’t what saves you. St. Athanasius already laid it out for you and I already posted it in the last thread. Obviously, you didn’t read it. But here it is again:

Had it been a case of a trespass only, and not of a subsequent corruption, repentance would have been well enough; but when once transgression had begun men came under the power of the corruption proper to their nature and were bereft of the grace which belonged to them as creatures in the Image of God.
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This is quite Catholic and exactly applicable to the IC. 👍
 
joe371 said:
Perhaps I overlooked it If so my apologies in advance. Let’s assume you are right about original sin, and not talk about it: When did Mary become sinless, as per the Orthodox consensus? I understand, I think, that the Orthodox Church has never made any formal and definitivepronouncement on the matter
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The truth is there is no consensus in the Orthodox Church. It does not destroy our faith and our beliefs if we believed the Theotokos committed a minor since once at some point of her life, or it did not. We do not believe that one is saved merely by not committing sin.
 
PRmerger said:
To declare that what was in the womb of Mary was Divine.
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The IC has nothing to do with it. IC happened 14 years before divinity was in her womb.

To add, if it was all about the divinity of Christ, then you wouldn’t object to the opinion of some Orthodox that Mary was sanctified at the Annunciation, correct?

Another edit: I thought you said the IC was about the merits of Christ’s work on the cross, not his incarnation and 9 month stay in the womb?
 
ConstantineTG said:
The truth is there is no consensus in the Orthodox Church. It does not destroy our faith and our beliefs if we believed the Theotokos committed a minor since once at some point of her life, or it did not. We do not believe that one is saved merely by not committing sin.
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I cannot seem to get anything definitive, when I ask my Orthodox friends. If you believe she was free of sin her whole life then this would have been accomplished via the power of God, as opposed to her own power, or will to be more precise - correct?
 
ConstantineTG said:
The IC has nothing to do with it. IC happened 14 years before divinity was in her womb.

To add, if it was all about the divinity of Christ, then you wouldn’t object to the opinion of some Orthodox that Mary was sanctified at the Annunciation, correct?

Another edit: I thought you said the IC was about the merits of Christ’s work on the cross, not his incarnation and 9 month stay in the womb?
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Let’s assume that Mary was sanctified at her annunciation i.e. made sinless. It would have happened before divinity was in her womb, before Jesus’ atoning work was accomplished and before Jesus’ resurrection?
 
joe371 said:
Let’s assume that Mary was sanctified at her annunciation i.e. made sinless. It would have happened before divinity was in her womb, before Jesus’ atoning work was accomplished and before Jesus’ resurrection?
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Again, sanctification is not salvation. While they are related, they are not the same thing.
 
joe371 said:
It would have happened before divinity was in her womb, before Jesus’ atoning work was accomplished and before Jesus’ resurrection?
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That’s the important question on this thread that is making everyone go :hmmm:

One cannot get around the fact that, Orthodox or Catholic, Mary was made pure and immaculate prior to Christ’s atoning death on the cross.

If CTG objects to Mary’s sinlessness at her conception because Christ had not yet been crucified, then he must logically object to his own church’s profession that Mary was sinless (at the Anunciation?), because Christ had not yet been crucified.

There is no way to get around that.
 
PRmerger said:
I rarely am sarcastic, CTG.

As I said, it is the protest of the weak.
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Sarcasm is a waste of time, but of course we have all been guilty of it from time to time. After all, we are all only human. :shrug:Emotions do run high at times. All we can do is our best…👍
 
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