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PRmerger
Guest
And, again, the answer is the same answer you give to atheists who ask you: why couldn’t God just save all of humanity without having to die a horrific, tortured death on a cross?
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PRmerger
Guest
Your argument could also be applied to the Virgin Birth.
That separates her from all of humanity as well.
By your reasoning you would have to deny that this occurred, or you would have to proclaim that this makes Mary not truly human, since she conceived in a way that no other human has before in the entirety of our existence, or ever will conceive.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
You mean She is not just another women, just like all other human women. “gasp” 
I’m confused, is She just like all other women, or is She not, and “why” either way? That’s all I want to know. You have a scripture verse?
Or are you saying, just like other women “aside” from this unprecedented miracle? That’s a pretty large elephant in the room opposed to Her being “just like any other women”
So what happened with this “un-human” conception. Which left Mary un-invited to participate in your congregation for She is unimportant, as we do not want sway from the Blood of The Cross. But She was there, you don’t have Her there. you have Her outside the building banished like Eve from the garden. Is that what God would want? Really? So why are you persecuting Gods most holy family, St Mary and all the Saints and martyrs?
All Banished along with Mary?
I’m confused, is She just like all other women, or is She not, and “why” either way? That’s all I want to know. You have a scripture verse?
Or are you saying, just like other women “aside” from this unprecedented miracle? That’s a pretty large elephant in the room opposed to Her being “just like any other women”
So what happened with this “un-human” conception. Which left Mary un-invited to participate in your congregation for She is unimportant, as we do not want sway from the Blood of The Cross. But She was there, you don’t have Her there. you have Her outside the building banished like Eve from the garden. Is that what God would want? Really? So why are you persecuting Gods most holy family, St Mary and all the Saints and martyrs?
All Banished along with Mary?
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Monergistic
Guest
Around here, you are the only person that I ever see making obnoxious demands like this. And I can’t help but think you’ve gone past the point of sending a message- you just enjoy feeling like you’ve left someone with no response. You know how I know? Because you recently did this to an Eastern Orthodox Christian (with whom you are currently somewhat engaged in discussion) and I know very well that it was no mistake on your part, as you had just spent several days discussing with that person the finer points of the EO and Mariology (or lack thereof). What message were you trying to send when you did it then? I can think of two possible messages- one, PR knows very, very little about Eastern Orthodoxy, to the point where she thinks they’re basically Protestants. And two- PR has lost herself in her own little parody and is doing this because she likes it, not because she wants to prove anything about it.Fair enough.
I hope, then, that you allow Catholics this same paradigm and don’t ever ask us to support our theology with a Scripture verse.
For it appears now that you are saying that what you believe does not need to be found in the Word of God–either in Scripture or Tradition.
Kind of a weird transition you’re making, but I will go with it.
If I ask you nicely to cut it out with this obnoxious pattern of behavior, would you consider demonstrating the capacity to respond well to constructive criticism? I will gladly concede that these sorts of demands are obnoxious no matter who is making them. (Thing is, you are the only person on these forums who regularly makes them). What I won’t concede is that some sort of carte blanche naturally follows from that conclusion, nor do I concede that Sola Scriptura (properly understood) is at all opposed to such an attitude toward your demands, which you know very well are obnoxious.
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Monergistic
Guest
John Piper wrote a book titled “Fifty Reasons Why Jesus Came to Die.” If I were answering that question, I would flip through there for some ideas and then I would give a real answer. Several, actually. I think I would be able to grab ten ideas or so and give a nice, detailed. Real. Response.
You say your response is the same as that. I’d like to see it. Maybe while we’re waiting, I can show you which of the 50 reasons I’d choose to talk about with an atheist.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
True, but it is now what makes Mary great. Every feast of the Theotokos in the Orthodox Church, the reading is when Jesus rebuked the woman who said that “blessed is the womb that bore you and the breast that nursed you.” Jesus said that blessed is the one who hears His word and obeys it. Of course Jesus is still talking about His mother, but stressing that what makes her blessed is not the act of bearing Him but her perfect submission to God.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I’m interested to hear that, even though I know the one true answer has already been given by St. Athanasius.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Because jelly is allowed for LentHow did he get the stomach like a bowl full of jelly then?Sorry lol
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Why are you making me answer my own questions? I raise that question to those who believe in the IC. Obviously those who believe in the IC believe God can exempt people from the Fall without becoming man and dying and rising from the dead. I don’t, so don’t turn the question around to me.
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aidanbradypop
Guest
Are you a Calvinist?
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aidanbradypop
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MollyMac
Guest
Yes. Maybe I should have phrased that differently. Something like, “Yes. Or atleast they are supposed to. But who knows these days.” I’ve come to the conclusion that every religion has it’s own pocket of ignorant people. The people that claim the name, but have no idea what they believe.
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johndaniel
Guest
I didn’t know they believed that. Also, isn’t original sin believed in by Orthodox Churches, but they have a different conception of what it means from our Church? E.g., they think that original sin’s only absolute effects are death, whereas we believe that it makes one inclined to sin? That’s why the Orthodox believe that the Holy Virgin was susceptible to it, because they believe she died before being assumed?
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ConstantineTG
Guest
No. While the term “original sin” is used, you are correct that the meaning is quite different.
In Latin Theology there is a legalistic understanding of sin. Sin is an offense, and we are where we are because we have committed an offense. The only way for infants to be in the same situation as their parents are and all ancestors tracing back to Adam is to have a sin passed on from one generation to the next. Thus Original Sin.
In Orthodox Theology, sin is corruption. Not just death, but sickness, all physical and spiritual illnesses. One’s draw to commit sin is based on the fact that our very human nature is corrupted. And we are born into this reality. When Adam sin, mankind itself inherently became corrupted, so everyone born after the Fall is subject to corruption. We don’t have to commit an offence to be corrupted, we are born corrupted. And Christ came to save us from this corruption. It isn’t merely a debt that needs payment, it is our very existence that needs to be “fixed”.
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johndaniel
Guest
Okay, that’s what I thought. Thank you for the clarification.
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SteveVH
Guest
Except that you know very well that we believe that it was through the merits of Christ that Mary was saved from sin. To state that we believe God can exempt people from the fall without becoming man and dying and rising from the dead is misrepresenting our position.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
But Mary was exempted from OS before Christ became incarnate. And don’t talk to me about time travel, that is not a proven reality and a concept that the Church Fathers never ever had.
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SteveVH
Guest
No one is talking about time travel. We are talking about eternity where there is no time and about a God who is Lord over both time and eternity. How in the world do you think Elijah, body and soul, was taken up to heaven before Christ suffered and died for him? Was he not subject to original sin?
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PRmerger
Guest
This is a weird comment coming from someone who has already been banned. Twice.
Or am I mistaken?
It is also curious that you, who have been previously reprimanded, would say this about me, who has never, not even once, been banned or suspended, or even received an infraction for making “obnoxious demands.”
I think, given your history, this is the longest you’ve been around the CAFs, so I suggest you not ruin it now.
At any rate, please address the apologetics arguments that I am making. They are, frankly, irrefutable. And, as such, they make you uncomfortable.
But as I think you are, at your essence, a seeker of truth, the seed I, and others, are planting here, will someday come to fruition.
As long as you continue to post and dialogue in a manner that is worthy of the CAFs, you will continue to learn what is true and what is false about your ideology/theology…
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I’m sorry, but we do exist within time. Even the Patriarchs (Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, etc.) were all saved only when Christ died and Resurrected. They weren’t saved during their time because something in the future that will have eternal implications will happen. Such thinking is the product of modern sci-fi fantasy and not Judeo-Christian thought from the Old Testament down to the first 1800 years of the Christian Church.
And if this claim is even true, shouldn’t we all be going to heaven right now body and soul, because of the eternal implications of Christ’s Second Coming?
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