Non Catholic view of Mariology II

  • Thread starter Thread starter aidanbradypop
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
ConstantineTG said:
I’m sorry, but we do exist within time. Even the Patriarchs (Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, etc.) were all saved only when Christ died and Resurrected. They weren’t saved during their time because something in the future that will have eternal implications will happen. Such thinking is the product of modern sci-fi fantasy and not Judeo-Christian thought from the Old Testament down to the first 1800 years of the Christian Church.

And if this claim is even true, shouldn’t we all be going to heaven right now body and soul, because of the eternal implications of Christ’s Second Coming?
Click to expand...
You didn’t answer my question concerning Elijah. How was Elijah saved from OS? I’m off to a Bible study so have a good night.
 
Monergistic said:
can think of two possible messages- one, PR knows very, very little about Eastern Orthodoxy, to the point where she thinks they’re basically Protestants.
Click to expand...
You might want to read these posts of mine, going back to 2009, which indicate how much I know about Orthodoxy. And which limn how I think that they are basically Catholic.

Exactly the opposite of what you’ve proposed.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5174068&highlight=orthodox#post5174068
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5742664&highlight=orthodox#post5742664
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5764794&highlight=orthodox#post5764794
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5771530&highlight=orthodox#post5771530
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5771699&highlight=orthodox#post5771699
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5975984&highlight=orthodox#post5975984
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6137051&highlight=orthodox#post6137051
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6567184&highlight=orthodox#post6567184
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6667945&highlight=orthodox#post6667945
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6668394&highlight=orthodox#post6668394

So, decidedly not Protestant.

Oh, and my favorite one for the moment, way back from 2010:
PRmerger said:
With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist. Again, from the Catechism
Click to expand...
 
ConstantineTG said:
Why are you making me answer my own questions? I raise that question to those who believe in the IC. Obviously those who believe in the IC believe God can exempt people from the Fall without becoming man and dying and rising from the dead. I don’t, so don’t turn the question around to me.
Click to expand...
God did not exempt Mary. I thought you used to belong to the CC?
 
ConstantineTG said:
Why are you making me answer my own questions?
Click to expand...
Because it shows you that the answer you give to the atheist will be exactly the same as the Catholic answer, and will be equally appropriate to apply to your question regarding the IC.
Obviously those who believe in the IC believe God can exempt people from the Fall without becoming man and dying and rising from the dead. I don’t, so don’t turn the question around to me.
Click to expand...
But you do believe that God can exempt Mary from being sinful. So it’s the same objection that the atheist will ask you. Why couldn’t God have simply made everyone like Mary?
 
ConstantineTG said:
IAnd if this claim is even true, shouldn’t we all be going to heaven right now body and soul, because of the eternal implications of Christ’s Second Coming?
Click to expand...
Actually, we do go to heaven, body and soul, at each and every Divine Liturgy.
 
Unfortunately this thread is moving faster than I have time to respond to it.

PR, you are my friend. 🙂 You have always posted charitably, intelligently, politely and thoughtfully.

Mono needs to take some time out. Walk away, calm down, then come back. If you don’t listen the mods will help you out on this issue. You may not like it.

Back to argument: if Mary did not have a nature like ours, i.e., one that had been corrupted, then are you not saying that Jesus could not have a nature like ours? My understanding is that the corruption is not in our nature but that our nature has been bent or twisted - it is the same thing as it was before the fall, only now it has been damaged, as if termites have been at a piece of wood, and what is left is still wood, only weak. If you say the corruption is in the essence of man, then you are doing big damage to the incarnation, are you not? Aren’t you saying Jesus became some sort of man with a nature different from ours?

I’ve heard ‘the saving from falling’ idea before - I find it speculative and circular in reasoning. We think she was sinless because she was, is what it seems to amount to. What I am interested is in the idea that in order for Mary to be saved at all she had to first be proclaimed a sinner - even if she never sinned. I am puzzled as to why this does damage to ‘original sin’ - I find the Orthodox conceptualization more appealing, frankly, than the Catholic, although as a Westerner I inherit Western conceptualizations of theology and in that sense (this will make PR happy) am a daughter of the Catholic Church more than that of the East.

I’m back to C.S.Lewis’ point about discussions about Mary. To further it, if a man tells me his mother is the most beautiful woman in the world, I am not inclined to argue with him but rather to be happy that he loves her. These sentiments. I think, get in the way of honestly appraising how we should look at Mary. Augustine said something along the lines about how it was inappropriate to discuss whether she actually sinned, and this situation seems to be handing the whole field to the side that will stop at no excess in regard to praising Mary. My 2 cents.
 
PRmerger said:
Because it shows you that the answer you give to the atheist will be exactly the same as the Catholic answer, and will be equally appropriate to apply to your question regarding the IC.

But you do believe that God can exempt Mary from being sinful. So it’s the same objection that the atheist will ask you. Why couldn’t God have simply made everyone like Mary?
Click to expand...
Mary wasn’t exempted from being sinful.
 
ConstantineTG said:
The IC exempted Mary.
Click to expand...
That is patently incorrect. Mary said: How my spirit rejoices in God my Savior. The CC does not teach that Mary was exempted. The IC did not exempt Mary. It’s like you want observers to see that and hopefully believe it. I would never do what you do here at CAF, at an Orthodox forum. 🤷
 
joe371 said:
That is patently incorrect. Mary said: How my spirit rejoices in God my Savior. The CC does not teach that Mary was exempted. The IC did not exempt Mary. It’s like you want observers to see that and hopefully believe it. I would never do what you do here at CAF, at an Orthodox forum. 🤷
Click to expand...
It did. If everyone gets OS and Mary didn’t, isn’t that an exemption?
 
Tomyris said:
PR, you are my friend. 🙂 You have always posted charitably, intelligently, politely and thoughtfully.
Click to expand...
Bestie!! :hug1:
Mono needs to take some time out. Walk away, calm down, then come back. If you don’t listen the mods will help you out on this issue. You may not like it.
Click to expand...
:cool:
 
Tomyris said:
Back to argument: if Mary did not have a nature like ours, i.e., one that had been corrupted, then are you not saying that Jesus could not have a nature like ours?
Click to expand...
Jesus and Mary both had human natures which were uncorrupted by sin. Jesus by his own nature. Mary by divine Grace.

That is, he is by nature uncorrupted. She is by grace.
I’ve heard ‘the saving from falling’ idea before - I find it speculative and circular in reasoning. We think she was sinless because she was, is what it seems to amount to.
Click to expand...
Not circular. It is simply an explanation of how Mary could have needed a savior while never sinning.
What I am interested is in the idea that in order for Mary to be saved at all she had to first be proclaimed a sinner - even if she never sinned.
Click to expand...
I don’t understand this. How can I first be proclaimed, say, a liar, even if I’ve never lied?
 
ConstantineTG said:
It did. If everyone gets OS and Mary didn’t, isn’t that an exemption?
Click to expand...
Original sin is washed away for everyone during their baptism. Mary’s potential to sin, original or otherwise, was washed away by Jesus’ atoning work as well, at the moment of her conception. If the exemption does not insist that Mary did not need a Savior, then OK.
 
joe371 said:
Original sin is washed away for everyone during their baptism. Mary’s potential to sin, original or otherwise, was washed away by Jesus’ atoning work as well, at the moment of her conception. If the exemption does not insist that Mary did not need a Savior, then OK.
Click to expand...
The exemption means that Mary did not need Jesus be incarnate, die on the cross, and rise from the dead, because she’s already been saved 14 years before the incarnation.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top