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SteveVH
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That works.
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aidanbradypop
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“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).
“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).
“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).
“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).
“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).
“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).
“As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).
“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).
“The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made.” Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).
“[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.” Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).
“She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay.” Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).
“Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God… The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation.” Andrew of Crete, Sermon I, On the Birth of Mary (A.D. 733).
“[T]ruly elect, and superior to all, not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as excelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever.” Germanus of Constantinople, Marracci in S. Germani Mariali (ante A.D. 733).
“O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew.” John of Damascus, Homily I (ante A.D. 749).
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Thinkingaloud
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pablope
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Thinkingaloud
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Thinkingaloud;10961165:
I’m sure you know very well the different understanding Protestantism has about the Church. This thread is supposed to be about Mary
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Thinkingaloud
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Thanks, I appreciate the information… I certainly am willing to change my mind based on evidence.
From the catholic encyclopedia: “That it was actually composed by St. James the Less, as first Bishop of Jerusalem, is not now believed by any one”. The article seems to be clear that the liturgy has developed over time, even if some parts are early. I’d be really interested in knowing when the part of the sinlessness of Mary was written. Was this one of the earliest parts or did this arrive later?
newadvent.org/cathen/08371a.htm
The acts of Andrew are considered apocryphal and does nto belong to the 1st century as your original link suggested.
I know that Iraneas coined the phrase “the new Eve” but I can’t see any mention of her sinlessness
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pablope
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pablope;10961179:
Ok…I understand.I’m sure you know very well the different understanding Protestantism has about the Church. This thread is supposed to be about Mary
Has someone recommended this book to you? Hail Holy Queen by Scott Hahn
For further study on the Marian dogmas?
amazon.com/Hail-Holy-Queen-Scott-Hahn/dp/0385501684
*In Hail, Holy Queen, he employs the same accessible, entertaining style to demonstrate Mary’s essential role in Christianity’s redemptive message.
Most Christians know that the life of Jesus is foreshadowed throughout the Old Testament. Through a close examination of the Bible, as well as the work of both Catholic and Protestant scholars and clergy, Hahn brings to light the small but significant details showing that just as Jesus is the “New Adam,” so Mary is the “New Eve.” He unveils the Marian mystery at the heart of the Book of Revelation and reveals how it is foretold in the very first pages of the Book of Genesis and in the story of King David’s monarchy, which speaks of a privileged place for the mother of the king.
Building on these scriptural and historical foundations, Hahn presents a new look at the Marian doctrines: Her Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity, Assumption, and Coronation. As he guides modern-day readers through passages filled with mysteries and poetry, Hahn helps them rediscover the ancient art and science of reading the Scriptures and gain a more profound understanding of their truthfulness and relevance to faith and the practice of religion in the contemporary world.
*
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GaryTaylor
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Did you read this. Sure the liturgy would have been improved from 60-AD forward.
oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_Jerusalem
Being apocryphal doesn’t distract from its historic authenticity. No different with the Gospel of James. While the link may be off its still prior to 300 as suggested.
Disobedience is sin in this regard.
3-21-10
“10.For as by one man’s disobedience sin entered, and death obtained [a place] through sin; so also by the obedience of one man, righteousness having been introduced, shall cause life to fructify in those persons who in times past were dead. And as the protoplast himself Adam, had his substance from untilled and as yet virgin soil (“for God had not yet sent rain, and man had not tilled the ground” ), and was formed by the hand of God, that is, by the Word of God, for “all things were made by Him,” and the Lord took dust from the earth and formed man; so did He who is the Word, recapitulating Adam in Himself, rightly receive a birth, enabling Him to gather up Adam [into Himself], from Mary, who was as yet a virgin. If, then, the first Adam had a man for his father, and was born of human seed, it were reasonable to say that the second Adam was begotten of Joseph. But if the former was taken from the dust, and God was his Maker, it was incumbent that the latter also, making a recapitulation in Himself, should be formed as man by God, to have an analogy with the former as respects His origin. Why, then, did not God again take dust, but wrought so that the formation should be made of Mary? It was that there might not be another formation called into being, nor any other which should [require to] be saved, but that the very same formation should be summed up [in Christ as had existed in Adam], the analogy having been preserved.”
3-22-4
“4.In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, “Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.” But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise “they were both naked, and were not ashamed,” inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human [124-125] race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty. And it has, in fact, happened that the first compact looses from the second tie, but that the second tie takes the position of the first which has been cancelled. For this reason did the Lord declare that the first should in truth be last, and the last first. And the prophet, too, indicates the same, saying, “instead of fathers, children have been born unto thee.” For the Lord, having been born “the First-begotten of the dead,” and receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, has regenerated them into the life of God, He having been made Himself the beginning of those that live, as Adam became the beginning of those who die. Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.”
textexcavation.com/irenaeusah.html
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GaryTaylor
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Is the Eucharist included in the above statement? Or is that a conversation for another time? The Saints?
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Tomyris
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Well, I have my own take on Gabriel’s pronouncement, and that is that it may be a forensic declaration, meaning that it did not happen before he spoke it, but it happened when he spoke it, it being a creative sort of word (Gen 1:1 “Let there be light” is the same type of creative word) with temporal consequences both backwards and forwards in time.
I can also accept the idea that Mary was cleansed by the blood of the Lamb and so was pure not because of some intrinsic or infused righteousness but because of Christ’s applied righteousness to her, a righteousness that is by faith. That puts my position neatly in agreement with my understanding of justification, which is more Reformed than Catholic, while holding to an agreement of Mary’s purity. It solves some puzzles.
No, I am NOT interested in a discussion on justification on this thread (I could hear the knives being sharpened). Focus, people, focus.
I can also accept the idea that Mary was cleansed by the blood of the Lamb and so was pure not because of some intrinsic or infused righteousness but because of Christ’s applied righteousness to her, a righteousness that is by faith. That puts my position neatly in agreement with my understanding of justification, which is more Reformed than Catholic, while holding to an agreement of Mary’s purity. It solves some puzzles.
No, I am NOT interested in a discussion on justification on this thread (I could hear the knives being sharpened). Focus, people, focus.
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aidanbradypop
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It was just sharp enough to shave my arm hair…darn
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KathleenGee
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Constantine,
You have issues about Mary of Fatima. I ended up with a roommate from the province of Leiria and her family invited me to stay at their farm for a weekend. We drove out to Fatima. The father got out of the car to visit an elderly man who had such an expression of joy and peace. The father came back and told us the gentleman had witnessed the miracle of the sun. I studied in Portugal in 1973.
One thing about Mary of Fatima is that all her prophetic words came true. Many of the witnesses who came to the apparition site, because it was foretold that some thing would happen there, included many atheists. Portugal at the time, particularly in that province, was governed by anti-Catholic Church leaders. Anyway, 70,000 people saw the miracle of the sun and were converted.
St. Louis de Montfort wrote that the work of Mary was reserved for the latter days in the battle against Satan, her beautiful prayers of the rosary binding Satan. So few Americans at that time of the miracle did not hear of it because they were putting their attention to the World Series.
Mary said if people did not turn more to God that another war would follow WWI, and that it would be much worse, and that a sign would appear in the sky right before the war. That was the aurora borealis that appeared over Europe right before the Nazis invaded Poland.
She also said that Russia, at that time a dysfunctional and dying monarchy, would spread its errors throughout the world. I witnessed first hand Marxism in a former Portguese colony and the first day of independence was not about that, the headlines declared, ‘AMERICA IS THE ENEMY OF THE WORLD’, this in SE Africa. I foresaw my mission being destroyed. It was except our church. The other missions I visited were destroyed and church properties were confiscated. My priest friends lived heroic lives enduring in the Lord and serving the people all those times.
On May 13, 1982, feast day of Fatima, was almost assassinated and said it was Mary who saved life. I remember that day so well. I came home and got down on my knees and prayed the rosary, and some theological confusion I had from being exposed to Marxism – even among those serving the Church cleared my mind and brought me so clearly to the truth of Jesus Christ that is in the deposit of the Catholic Church.
John Paul II finally consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in March of 1984. A few years later a tiny article came out in the ‘Seattle Times’. It stated that Seattle had the second highest number of KGB in the country next to Washington, DC. And if the country had fallen to the Soviet Union, all the intelligencia, businessmen, and Orthodox Catholics (meaning you and I), would have been liquidated.
What happened in Rwanda with the genocide of former friends now being committed towards the other tribe could happen to us.
The only safe place in this world – to protect our fullness of faith in Jesus Christ and the subsequent communion it provides us, and our personal well being and protection for ourselves and our loved ones…is in the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
The Immaculate Heart of Mary is our safe refuge in these days with her maternal protection in the battle against Satan.
You have issues about Mary of Fatima. I ended up with a roommate from the province of Leiria and her family invited me to stay at their farm for a weekend. We drove out to Fatima. The father got out of the car to visit an elderly man who had such an expression of joy and peace. The father came back and told us the gentleman had witnessed the miracle of the sun. I studied in Portugal in 1973.
One thing about Mary of Fatima is that all her prophetic words came true. Many of the witnesses who came to the apparition site, because it was foretold that some thing would happen there, included many atheists. Portugal at the time, particularly in that province, was governed by anti-Catholic Church leaders. Anyway, 70,000 people saw the miracle of the sun and were converted.
St. Louis de Montfort wrote that the work of Mary was reserved for the latter days in the battle against Satan, her beautiful prayers of the rosary binding Satan. So few Americans at that time of the miracle did not hear of it because they were putting their attention to the World Series.
Mary said if people did not turn more to God that another war would follow WWI, and that it would be much worse, and that a sign would appear in the sky right before the war. That was the aurora borealis that appeared over Europe right before the Nazis invaded Poland.
She also said that Russia, at that time a dysfunctional and dying monarchy, would spread its errors throughout the world. I witnessed first hand Marxism in a former Portguese colony and the first day of independence was not about that, the headlines declared, ‘AMERICA IS THE ENEMY OF THE WORLD’, this in SE Africa. I foresaw my mission being destroyed. It was except our church. The other missions I visited were destroyed and church properties were confiscated. My priest friends lived heroic lives enduring in the Lord and serving the people all those times.
On May 13, 1982, feast day of Fatima, was almost assassinated and said it was Mary who saved life. I remember that day so well. I came home and got down on my knees and prayed the rosary, and some theological confusion I had from being exposed to Marxism – even among those serving the Church cleared my mind and brought me so clearly to the truth of Jesus Christ that is in the deposit of the Catholic Church.
John Paul II finally consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in March of 1984. A few years later a tiny article came out in the ‘Seattle Times’. It stated that Seattle had the second highest number of KGB in the country next to Washington, DC. And if the country had fallen to the Soviet Union, all the intelligencia, businessmen, and Orthodox Catholics (meaning you and I), would have been liquidated.
What happened in Rwanda with the genocide of former friends now being committed towards the other tribe could happen to us.
The only safe place in this world – to protect our fullness of faith in Jesus Christ and the subsequent communion it provides us, and our personal well being and protection for ourselves and our loved ones…is in the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
The Immaculate Heart of Mary is our safe refuge in these days with her maternal protection in the battle against Satan.
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ConstantineTG
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I did not write that paper.
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pablope
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But you believe everything in it?
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ConstantineTG
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Not everything.
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joe371
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If you responded to this already, I must have overlooked it:
You believe in the following - right?
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
During a baby’s (or child’s) baptism (both free of actual sin) what sin is being remitted by God?
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SteveVH
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I m interested in the answer to this question as well. It has been asked on more than a few occasions but never answered that I have seen.
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joe371
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:yup:
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ConstantineTG
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It is funny that this particular question is running concurrently in two or three threads.
Do you believe that all baptism does is forgive sins?
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