Non-Catholics, a question

  • Thread starter Thread starter kalt
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
We are saved by grace through faith in Christ.
Exactly! I have said this dozens of times on various threads. We are save by grace through faith in Christ and our good works are the fruit of that faith. The works cannot be separated from the faith. You cannot say that we are saved by “faith alone”. Yet many of the protestants continue to argue. Do you know why?
 
I think most Evangelicals approach these Calvinistic ideas having embraced the belief that salvation is an event and not a process and with the presupposition that the penal–substitution theory of the Atonement is fact.
Fascinating (I am beginning to sound like Spock). 😃

I hope you don’t mind that I save your post to my files. It is very informative and probably the best summary of Jean Cauvin’s doctrine of TULIP that I have ever read.

Thanks Mick!
 
Good.
What? You just agreed that faith and good works cannot be separated?!?
They cannot be separated. One is the fruit of the other…
If it was required to have an apple tree in the yard you would get fruit too over time. Fruit however is not giving you an apple tree.
You get saved by faith alone and fruit is not a requirement. You will definitely bear fruit however if you are saved… if not you more than likely are not saved in the first place.
Just bearing fruit (a.k.a. lip service) does not get you saved on the other hand.
 
They cannot be separated.
Great!
You get saved by faith alone… .
Wha? We are save by grace through faith. Good works is the fruit. We are not saved by faith alone. Faith and works cannot be separated. Are you pretending to not understand?
You will definitely bear fruit however if you are saved. if not you more than likely are not saved in the first place.
Let us say that you are saved (according to your denomination’s definition of “getting saved”). For ten years you live a devout Christian life and bear good fruit. Then suddenly you murder someone in a fit of rage. Do you say that you were not really saved for those ten years?
 
For ten years you live a devout Christian life and bear good fruit. Then suddenly you murder someone in a fit of rage. Do you say that you were not really saved for those ten years?
That is definitely a good question and there are two answers to this:
Option 1: I would have been paying lip service to God the whole time and just lived a religious life. I would have never been repentant and contrite because of my sin. In this case it would not matter whether or not I went to church all the time because I would have been unregenerate and a hard heartened sinner who cannot please God.
Option 2: I would have let the devil get the best of me for a little while. Even though we still sin we cannot stay there because God will not let us. That goes for all sins… To God hatred is as bad as murder because He knows us. If I am saved I am saved and my own actions cannot snatch me from the hand of God (even though my behavior will make me miserable and God will chastise me in addition to the local authorities). In this case it would not matter if I am a murderer. I was a murderer at heart before I got saved and this heinous act still does not snatch me from the hand of God. I am a fallible creature and I do things I am not proud of and I do repent of them because I know how God views these things.
I do fail, but I bear good fruit because of the grace of God and because of my salvation.
The difference between option 1 and 2 is that option 2 means that I would be truly repentant of this hideous act if I was saved.
 
They cannot be separated. One is the fruit of the other…
If it was required to have an apple tree in the yard you would get fruit too over time. Fruit however is not giving you an apple tree.
You get saved by faith alone and fruit is not a requirement. You will definitely bear fruit however if you are saved… if not you more than likely are not saved in the first place.
Just bearing fruit (a.k.a. lip service) does not get you saved on the other hand.
Official Protestant statements of belief emphasize the lack of all value to good works as conditions for justification, insisting on them as only the necessary fruits, and evidence of justification.

To determine the relationship of good works to salvation, it will be useful to review the teaching of the Church on grace. The supernatural graces of God which accompany us through life are those unmerited, interior helps which God in His infinite goodness, through the merits of Jesus Christ, bestows upon us sinful creatures in order to strengthen us, and by raising us to a supernatural state, to enable us to be freed from sin, to remain free from serious sin to the end of our lives, and thus attain our eternal salvation. We speak of the merits of Christ as its cause because all graces granted to fallen man are derived from this one source. It is for this reason that all the prayers of the Church either invoke Christ directly or conclude with the words “Through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Justification and salvation are the result of grace, with faith in Jesus Christ an essential condition (Rom. 3:22-26; Eph 2:8-13; Phil 3:8-10). In virtue of the bloody sacrifice of our Savior’s life, remission of sins and sanctification were granted. Grace is the cause of any good that we do, not the fruit of it.

St. Paul, who knew the place of grace, and was keenly aware of the fact that the just man is free, and can do good or evil, includes in most of his epistles instructions for the performance of good works. In his teaching on merit, there are two main thoughts. There will be a reward (1 Cor 3:8) according to the divine promise (1 Tim 4:8; Rev 14:13), and grace (Eph 2:8-10). And this reward for his good works will be faithfully rendered to every man. (Rom 2:5-10; 1 Cor 9:24-25; 2 Cor 9:6).

What do good works have to do with our salvation? For a definitive answer, we turn to the scene of the Last Judgment as depicted by our Savior: Matthew 25:31-46

In this description of the Last Judgment, those saved are those who did corporal works of mercy, and those condemned are those who did no good works. Corporal, as distinguished from spiritual works of mercy, are those which relieve the material, or bodily, needs of our neighbor. The chief corporal works are seven: to feed the hungry, to give drink to the thirsty, to clothe the naked, to visit the imprisoned, to shelter the homeless, to visit the sick, and to bury the dead.

The good works must be done in the name of Christ: “All whatsoever you do in word and or in work, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God and the Father by him” (Col 3:17). And they must be done for the love of God, by one united to Him in charity (in the state of grace):

IF I SPEAK WITH THE TONGUES OF MEN AND OF ANGELS, AND HAVE NOT CHARITY, I AM BECOME AS SOUNDING BRASS, OR A TINKLING CYMBAL. AND IF I SHOULD HAVE PROPHECY AND SHOULD KNOW ALL MYSTERIES AND ALL KNOWLEDGE, AND IF I SHOULD HAVE ALL FAITH, SO THAT I COULD MOVE MOUNTAINS, AND HAVE NOT CHARITY, I AM NOTHING. AND IF I SHOULD DELIVER MY BODY TO BE BURNED , AND HAVE NOT CHARITY, IT PROFITETH ME NOTHING. (1 Cor 13:3)

Those who were welcomed into the kingdom had not been sure they were saved; they were surprised to hear it. The goats on His left were surprised, too. “Lord, when did we not minister to thee?” They may have arrived FEELING SURE they were saved, only to find that their confidence was misplaced. Not only that, the verdict on their eternal destiny was rendered without their having had any oppotunity to tell Him so. We conclude, from what is recorded in the New Testament, that we will not know until the Last Judgment whether we are saved or damned. We will not decide. He will! He will not ask us if we are saved. He will tell us!

Do you understand it now?
 
That is definitely a good question and there are two answers to this:
Option 1: Option 2: .
So let me get this straight:

Option 1 says that you were really never “saved” in the first place because you did not repent with a contrite heart of your grievous sin.

Option 2 says that you did “get saved” the first time because you repented sincerely.

Is that correct?
 
So let me get this straight:

Option 1 says that you were really never “saved” in the first place because you did not repent with a contrite heart of your grievous sin.

Option 2 says that you did “get saved” the first time because you repented sincerely.

Is that correct?
Correct. One is lip service and the other one is not.
40.png
GOD:
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Romans 8:8
 
Correct. One is lip service and the other one is not.
I see. You keep using this term “lip service”. Interesting.

Let me ask you this. If the person claimed to be a devout Christian full of good works for ten years and sure that he/she was saved, and then commits murder, and does not repent—but then repents sincerely five years later—was this person “saved” for ten years, but then retroactively not really “saved” because they did not repent with a contrite heart of their sin, but retro-retroactively really “saved” because they decided to repent five years later?
 
I see. You keep using this term “lip service”. Interesting.

Let me ask you this. If the person claimed to be a devout Christian full of good works for ten years and sure that he/she was saved, and then commits murder, and does not repent—but then repents sincerely five years later—was this person “saved” for ten years, but then retroactively not really “saved” because they did not repent with a contrite heart of their sin, but retro-retroactively really “saved” because they decided to repent five years later?
This is not going to happen. The heart is deceitful and wicked. Unless God gives us a new heart with new desires we will not know it.
Some people are mislead by preachers who popishly declare them saved… Salvation is a complete change of life…
Many many times we hear evangelists say "It’ll only take five minutes.“
No it doesn’t. It will take your life – all of it!
 
I see. You keep using this term “lip service”. Interesting.

Let me ask you this. If the person claimed to be a devout Christian full of good works for ten years and sure that he/she was saved, and then commits murder, and does not repent—but then repents sincerely five years later—was this person “saved” for ten years, but then retroactively not really “saved” because they did not repent with a contrite heart of their sin, but retro-retroactively really “saved” because they decided to repent five years later?
Me thinks she has painted herself into a corner. We’ll just wait for the paint to dry and she if she comes back to her senses. :rotfl:
 
This is not going to happen.
How do you know. You do not read hearts!
Some people are mislead by preachers who popishly declare them saved…
Did I really just see that you used the word, “popishly”?!?

Now you are showing your true colors of bigotry!
It will take your life – all of it!
Now you are learning. It is a process of metanoia. We know that we were saved yesterday. We know that we are saved today. We have hope that we will be saved tomorrow.
 
Now you are learning. It is a process of metanoia. We know that we were saved yesterday. We know that we are saved today. We have hope that we will be saved tomorrow.
We are saved and then we grow in faith.
For example, if someone believes that he can lose his salvation then he might fall into the error of trying to keep his salvation by what he does. This is a serious error (Gal. 3:1-3). On the other hand, if he believed he could not lose his salvation then, he might fall into the error of sinning willfully because he believes it can’t be lost no matter how much he sins. This also is very wrong (Rom. 6:1-2,11-12). The proper understanding of salvation is that works play no part in salvation itself (Rom. 4:5), that it is a free gift (Rom. 6:23), and that it is received by faith (Eph. 2:8-9). Once we are saved we are to live a holy life (1 Thess. 4:7) and bring forth good fruit…
 
We are saved and then we grow in faith.
For example, if someone believes that he can lose his salvation then he might fall into the error of trying to keep his salvation by what he does. This is a serious error (Gal. 3:1-3). On the other hand, if he believed he could not lose his salvation then, he might fall into the error of sinning willfully because he believes it can’t be lost no matter how much he sins. This also is very wrong (Rom. 6:1-2,11-12). The proper understanding of salvation is that works play no part in salvation itself (Rom. 4:5), that it is a free gift (Rom. 6:23), and that it is received by faith (Eph. 2:8-9). Once we are saved we are to live a holy life (1 Thess. 4:7) and bring forth good fruit…
Wrong again Janet.
 
This is a serious error (Gal. 3:1-3)
We have already determined that we are not saved by works of the law.
he believes it can’t be lost no matter how much he sins. This also is very wrong (Rom. 6:1-2,11-12).
But your theology states that he/she was never saved to begin with???
The proper understanding of salvation is that works play no part in salvation itself (Rom. 4:5)
Wrong again. Faith without works is a dead faith. (James 2:26)
that it is a free gift (Rom. 6:23), and that it is received by faith (Eph. 2:8-9). Once we are saved we are to live a holy life (1 Thess. 4:7) and bring forth good fruit…
And we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. (Phil 2:12)
 
Wrong again. Faith without works is a dead faith. (James 2:26)
I don’t really plan on continuing to split hairs with you… We been through this. I hear what you say and you hopefully hear what I say…
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top