Non-Catholics, how is Mary not the Mother of God?

[Pat_De]

Any chance that we can set your speculations aside, and get back to the thread topic?

I’m not the one who “derailed” if you would go back and read the transcripts. AMF, I brought that very question up with PRmerger and he/she said there is nothing wrong with a little side discussion and it is common. But to answer your question. Yes.

 

[wantingtoknow]

I had mentioned in another thread why this confuses me.
Here’s where I’m coming from.
Jesus = God
AND
Mary = Mother of Jesus

THEREFORE
Mary = Mother of God

See my confusion?
But, people say "Mary is the mother of Jesus, not God’ and I say ‘But Jesus IS God, right?’ and they say ‘Yes, but she is not the mother of God’ and then this is me -->

And some people say she gave birth to his human nature, not to Him, but that’s just nonsense. When I gave birth to my children I gave birth to a WHOLE PERSON, not a nature. How do you give birth to a nature?

Okay, so help me out. I know many non-catholics who defend their positions well, and most of them are here on CAF!! So, a better understanding of this would be greatly appreciated. Also, if anyone has any links to the early Church Fathers who did not believe Mary to be the mother of God, and what they called her instead, that would help, too. I’m on something of an ECF kick right now. Thanks again in advance for your time!

PS - Also, an understanding of how Elizsabeth calling mary the Mother of my Lord differs from the term Mother of God. I don’t get that either.

I’m no ttrying to attack anyone’s position. This is something I simply don’t get. Thank you!

Hmm…well, maybe I am not a “good” protestant to be answering this question (I will come home to the Church when I am able) but I do believe that Mary is the Mother of God. I’ve seen it with my own eyes in the Bible. I don’t understand how others do not see it that way. So, like you, I am also confused when people deny the truth of this statement!

 

[Ann1231]

I grew up Baptist and we always knew Mary was the Mother of God. What denominations are you thinking don’t?

 

[PRmerger]

I’m not the one who “derailed” if you would go back and read the transcripts. AMF, I brought that very question up with PRmerger and he/she said there is nothing wrong with a little side discussion and it is common. But to answer your question. Yes.

Guilty as charged!

 

[PRmerger]

I deny you nothing. I have NO desire to do so and more importantly, I have no power or authority to do so.

Are you saying Mary pre-existed like Jesus pre-existed so she could be the Ark mentioned in Hebrews 8 & 9? That’s one of the questions I’ve been asking.

I would have harsh words to anyone who shows disgust towards Mary. She was a wonderful example for all Christians.

Mary was blessed. Jesus lists many reasons God calls Christians blessed in Matthew 5.

The Bible says Mary was chosen from among women not above women.

It’s not real good to generalize. I know many non-catholic Christians and none that I have spoken to have any disgust for Mary. On the contrary, they would call her blessed.

The disgust you think you detect could be confusion as to why your doctrines of Mary, which aren’t found in the Bible that I’m aware of, are so important to you.

So, Doki, whose ovum was used for John the Baptist?

 

[jlhargus]

Not if John the Baptist pre-existed as Elijah as Jesus said.

JL: Wow, what a streach. Ok let’s go with it as though John the Baptist was Elijah. So is Elizabeth mother of Elijah reincarnabed?

Matthew 11:12 "And from the days of **John the Baptist **until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 "And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come.

The dangers of literalism. Jesus is speaking figuratively. He does that form time to time.

Funny response from one who takes John 6 literally.

JL: What is more funny is one who would even remotely consider John the Baptist to literally be Elijah reincarnated, in direct contradiction of scripture, yet see John 6 figuratively. Brings to mind the scripture when Christ said to the Pharisees in Mt23:24 …which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

 

[jlhargus]

Not if John the Baptist pre-existed as Elijah as Jesus said.

JL: Wow, what a streach. Ok let’s go with it as though John the Baptist was Elijah. So is Elizabeth mother of Elijah reincarnabed?

Matthew 11:12 "And from the days of **John the Baptist **until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 "And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come.

The dangers of literalism. Jesus is speaking figuratively. He does that form time to time.

Funny response from one who takes John 6 literally.

JL: What is more funny is one who would even remotely consider John the Baptist to literally be Elijah reincarnated, in direct contradiction of scripture, yet see John 6 figuratively. Brings to mind the scripture when Christ said to the Pharisees in Mt23:24 …which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

 

[Dokimas]

So, Doki, whose ovum was used for John the Baptist?

God tells us very little as to how He performed miracles. I have little to no idea.

God sure isn’t limited by our ability to understand, for which I’m very thankful.

Could have been Elizabeth’s. Biological scientists can do wonders with ovum and sperm. Do you think they are more able than God? My guess is that they are thinking God’s thought after Him. Too bad many of them don’t give God the glory due Him.

 

[Dokimas]

JL: Wow, what a streach. Ok let’s go with it as though John the Baptist was Elijah. So is Elizabeth mother of Elijah reincarnabed?

JL: What is more funny is one who would even remotely consider John the Baptist to literally be Elijah reincarnated, in direct contradiction of scripture, yet see John 6 figuratively. Brings to mind the scripture when Christ said to the Pharisees in Mt23:24 …which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Elijah NEVER died so he could not be reincarnated, could he?

 

[PRmerger]

Why are you linking a quote from a Mormon, dianaiad, with my post, Pat?

I hope you are prepared to answer the following Scriptures: Matt 12:46, Luke 8:19, Mark 3:31,
Matt 13:55 (“Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? “And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then {did} this man {get} all these things?” 57 And they took offense at Him.”) --Remember, this took place where he grew up as we are reminded in the next verse; so you claim to know more than those that grew up with Jesus in Nazareth?

Others continued: ***"After these things Jesus walked in Galilee; for He did not want to walk in Judea, because the Jews sought to kill Him. Now the Jews’ Feast of Tabernacles was at hand. His brothers therefore said to Him, “Depart from here and go into Judea, that Your disciples also may see the works that You are doing. For no one does anything in secret while he himself seeks to be known openly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.” For even His brothers did not believe in Him. Then Jesus said to them, "My time has not yet come, but your time is always ready. The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil. You go up to this feast. I am not yet going up to this feast, for My time has not yet fully come.“When He had said these things to them, He remained in Galilee.” ***-- John 7:1-10
Are you going to say you know more than Jesus Himself did? Remember He is still in His hometown in Galilee to which Nazareth is a town in Galilee in case you did not know.

Continued: Acts 1:14, Galatians 1 (“Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.”)

Do you know more than the Apostle Paul or God or Jesus or the people in His small town of Nazareth?

Like I said before and now say again; most Christians know that Mary and Joseph had other children from a clear understanding of the Biblical record and for those of you that hold onto this perpetual virginity theory have to overcome a lot of Scripture, which is what I said before that it shows a lack of comprehension of the Bible in my opinion, but thank God it has no bearing on Salvation.

 

[guanophore]

Now you are getting generations and texts far removed from Scripture and the Truth in many ways and adding of Scripture to which we are warned against.

No, actually, Pat. Most of these writers preceeded the close of the canon of the NT in 382 AD. It was this group of people, with this faith, that formed the NT that you are so fond of using to beat up on us. It is a Catholic book.

You are right, the Catholic Church did “add to scripture”. We added the 27 books including the “memoirs of the Apostles” and the letters and other writings, and called them the New Testament. These were bound together with the Alexandrian Septuagint to create what is called The Bible.

I'm sticking with Scripture; as to avoid such heresy and make God into a liar.

It would be good if you did do this, but you don’t. You avoid the parts where God established a Church, and gave it authority, and directed the faithful to obey them.

God said no not one, all have fallen short.  Mary said my God my Savior.  Scripture is inspired of God and that I will listen to.  This is beginning to make me nauseated in all honesty.

Mary was saved by God. She is a creature, and needed to be redeemed from original sin. He did this to prepare her to become the Mother of His only Son, Jesus. He prepared an ark of the New Covenant so that He could draw His flesh from her sanctified flesh.

 

[PRmerger]

God tells us very little as to how He performed miracles. I have little to no idea.

God sure isn’t limited by our ability to understand, for which I’m very thankful.

Could have been Elizabeth’s.

See the contradiction you’ve worked yourself into, Doki?

It’s the same word that is used for Elizabeth that is used for Mary: conceived.

You can’t say Mary’s seed was not used but Elizabeth’s could have been.

It shows that you will do ****anything ****to twist your logic into denying Catholic teachings. :sad_yes:

 

[guanophore]

Seems this is another one of those times you can’t entertain you could be incorrect.

My desire that the brother not be embracing heresies is a correct desire, Dokimas. Jesus commanded all of us to hold fast to the Truth. I desire this for myself, as well as all who call upon His name. How could that desire be incorrect?

 

[guanophore]

Your lack charity is overwhelming; is this what you have been taught? I have an opinion and you have an opinion; are we only to express one opinion; is that the purpose for CAF?

Now I am the one who is confused! How is my inquiry about your purpose and goals uncharitable?

 

[Dokimas]

My desire that the brother not be embracing heresies is a correct desire, Dokimas. Jesus commanded all of us to hold fast to the Truth. I desire this for myself, as well as all who call upon His name. How could that desire be incorrect?

I quickly looked for where I said your desire was incorrect. I couldn’t find it. What I was referring to was your understanding of the topic, not your desire for us to understand and hold fast to the Truth. Your desire is wonderful. I share that desire with you.

I disagree, however, with your understanding of some specific topics.

Instead of thinking some are anti-catholic, why not realize that often their desires are for the Truth on a given subject is understood and held to.

 

[guanophore]

I’m not the one who “derailed” if you would go back and read the transcripts. AMF, I brought that very question up with PRmerger and he/she said there is nothing wrong with a little side discussion and it is common. But to answer your question. Yes.

I know. I watched her do it.

 

[guanophore]

Hmm…well, maybe I am not a “good” protestant to be answering this question (I will come home to the Church when I am able) but I do believe that Mary is the Mother of God. I’ve seen it with my own eyes in the Bible. I don’t understand how others do not see it that way. So, like you, I am also confused when people deny the truth of this statement!

Clearly you are reading the scripture through the lens of the faith that was handed down from the Apostles. Many of our separated brethren, Pat De among them, do not do this. They read them through the lenses of modern theological innovations that have emerged in the last 500 years. That is why they don’t see what we see.

 

[guanophore]

I disagree, however, with your understanding of some specific topics.

Instead of thinking some are anti-catholic, why not realize that often their desires are for the Truth on a given subject is understood and held to.

Both things are true in many cases. I would venture that they are in yours. You have very strong convictions about your doctrines, even though they are anti-Catholic. It also seems that part of the reason you are here at CAF is an earnest desire for the Truth.

 

[PRmerger]

Now you are getting generations and texts far removed from Scripture and the Truth in many ways and adding of Scripture to which we are warned against. I’m sticking with Scripture; as to avoid such heresy and make God into a liar. God said no not one, all have fallen short. Mary said my God my Savior. Scripture is inspired of God and that I will listen to. This is beginning to make me nauseated in all honesty.

So here’s the point, Pat: the IC has been a teaching of the Apostles from the very beginning. It was taught in the first centuries (see examples) and in the middle centuries (see examples) and it is taught today.

Your Christian church, one of 30,000, sprang from this One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church which taught the IC at its very beginnings.

As for how many Christians believe in the dogma of the IC–do you really want to go there? I am certain that as a Christian you are not going to profess that majority wins in this dialogue, so why even bring that silly (and false) point up?

 

[Dokimas]

Both things are true in many cases. I would venture that they are in yours. You have very strong convictions about your doctrines, even though they are anti-Catholic. It also seems that part of the reason you are here at CAF is an earnest desire for the Truth.

Are you anti-protestant?