Non-Catholics, how is Mary not the Mother of God?

[Dokimas]

So here’s the point, Pat: the IC has been a teaching of the Apostles from the very beginning. It was taught in the first centuries (see examples) and in the middle centuries (see examples) and it is taught today.

Your Christian church, one of 30,000, sprang from this One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church which taught the IC at its very beginnings.

As for how many Christians believe in the dogma of the IC–do you really want to go there? I am certain that as a Christian you are not going to profess that majority wins in this dialogue, so why even bring that silly (and false) point up?

Speaking of ‘silly points’ … I really wish you stop with the 30,000 different denoms point.

Let’s throw the CC into the mix and call it 30,001 to make my next point. There’s only two teacnings on any subject - the correct understanding and ALL the rest which are incorrect. There’s not 30,001 understandings, there are but two - the right one and the wrong ones.

 

[PRmerger]

This is beginning to make me nauseated in all honesty.

Ah. So here it begins. Your modus operandi of posting on a Catholic thread, and then when Truth becomes apparent, running away.

I pray that I am wrong and this is not a hint at the beginning of your disapparance from this thread…but based on your posting history I don’t believe I am making an incorrect assessment:

I am not quite sure why you keep coming to the CAFs and posting, then retreating when your worthy debaters refute your comments. It seems to be a rather cowardly modus operandi–posting questions yet refusing to engage in further dialogue.

Each of these posts are by you, Pat–each from different threads, which you leave after posting for a few days. When Catholics come to provide apologia, you respond with:

You charity has ended dialogue; source

• Thanks for the invitation, but I really do not have anything to add and should not have posted here in the first place and again I do apologize for the rude disruption. source
• I am no longer responding to anyone on this thread because I not interested on being in this thread any longer. source
• for I do not plan to be here much longer; there is no point for me to be here and I have concluded that God probably would rather have me spend my time doing other things. source
• I’m done with the futility unless you are able to recognize or acknowledge some contextual understanding of Scripture–Pat De

All of the above is from just a few weeks of being on the CAFs.

God has clearly called you to be here on the CAFs, Pat. And kudos to you for saying yes! But have some integrity and stick around for the discussions.

 

[guanophore]

Are you anti-protestant?

No, but I am anti-heresy, and all Protestants have embraced heresies, to a greater or lesser degree.

 

[jlhargus]

Elijah NEVER died so he could not be reincarnated, could he?

JL: Which body will he then have at the rresurrection, the first one or last one? Also you didn’t answer, was Elizabeth the mother of Elijah?

 

[guanophore]

Speaking of ‘silly points’ … I really wish you stop with the 30,000 different denoms point.

Let’s throw the CC into the mix and call it 30,001 to make my next point. There’s only two teacnings on any subject - the correct understanding and ALL the rest which are incorrect. There’s not 30,001 understandings, there are but two - the right one and the wrong ones.

I am not fond of that figure either. However the point is that heresy causes splintering, and from the time of the original reformers until now, the Body of Christ has continued to fracture and divide. I think one of the major sources of that division is the heresy of
sola scriptura. We have seen the evidence of it in this thread, where there has been demonstrated a gross misapprehension that all of what pertains to us as Christians should somehow be found in the Bible, or it is not valid.

 

[PRmerger]

Are you saying Mary pre-existed like Jesus pre-existed so she could be the Ark mentioned in Hebrews 8 & 9? That’s one of the questions I’ve been asking.

Absolutely not. Mary did not pre-exist, like you believe John and Jesus did.

I would have harsh words to anyone who shows disgust towards Mary.

I absolutely believe that and love you for it!

It’s not real good to generalize. I know many non-catholic Christians and none that I have spoken to have any disgust for Mary. On the contrary, they would call her blessed.

Never heard a single one–not a one–in all my discussions with non-Cs here and in real life, call her “blessed”.

The disgust you think you detect could be confusion as to why your doctrines of Mary, **which aren’t found in the Bible **that I’m aware of, are so important to you.

Remember, Doki, you’ve pointed out to me many times that you have no problem with beliefs that aren’t found in Scripture, just ones that contradict Scripture, right?

 

[Dokimas]

No, but I am anti-heresy, and all Protestants have embraced heresies, to a greater or lesser degree.

And you hold to no herecies, correct?

BTW, I’m not anti-catholic; I do disagree with some of their/you undersandings. I will NOT say any of those teachings are heretical, but incorrect. I’ll leave that judgement to God. I will continue to share what I understand on the issues and why I think other opinions are incorrect. However, using your apparent definition of herecy, if I’m correct maybe some of your understandings fit your own definition.

 

[guanophore]

Ah. So here it begins. Your modus operandi of posting on a Catholic thread, and then when Truth becomes apparent, running away.

I pray that I am wrong and this is not a hint at the beginning of your disapparance from this thread…but based on your posting history I don’t believe I am making an incorrect assessment:

I am not quite sure why you keep coming to the CAFs and posting, then retreating when your worthy debaters refute your comments. It seems to be a rather cowardly modus operandi–posting questions yet refusing to engage in further dialogue.

Each of these posts are by you, Pat–each from different threads, which you leave after posting for a few days. When Catholics come to provide apologia, you respond with:

You charity has ended dialogue; source

• Thanks for the invitation, but I really do not have anything to add and should not have posted here in the first place and again I do apologize for the rude disruption. source
• I am no longer responding to anyone on this thread because I not interested on being in this thread any longer. source
• for I do not plan to be here much longer; there is no point for me to be here and I have concluded that God probably would rather have me spend my time doing other things. source
• I’m done with the futility unless you are able to recognize or acknowledge some contextual understanding of Scripture–Pat De

All of the above is from just a few weeks of being on the CAFs.

God has clearly called you to be here on the CAFs, Pat. And kudos to you for saying yes! But have some integrity and stick around for the discussions.

This is very good tracking PR. Thanks for collecting all those references. I have seen this pattern also. Right on!

That was worth a digression from the topic.

 

[Dokimas]

Absolutely not. Mary did not pre-exist, like you believe John and Jesus did.

Then Mary could not be the Ark in Heaven because it existed when Moses was making the Tabernacle because he used the pattern from Heaven shown him by God.

Heb 8:5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”

I believe the context is the Tabernacle which included the Ark.

Never heard a single one–not a one–in all my discussions with non-Cs here and in real life, call her “blessed”.

I guess you can’t say that any more because I just did. Let me do it again … Mary was blessed. If I’m not mistake, I’ve seen other non-catholic Christians here call her blessed. Why wouldn’t we? In so many words, the Bible says we should.

The problem isn’t calling her blessed but differing understandings of what that means. As I have pointed out, Jesus has a list of who will also be called blessed in Matthew 5.

Remember, Doki, you’ve pointed out to me many times that you have no problem with beliefs that aren’t found in Scripture, just ones that contradict Scripture, right?

Correct. That’s true about some of your understandings of Mary, IMO. They are contradicted by the Bible.

 

[guanophore]

And you hold to no herecies, correct?

If I do, then may the church that Jesus established to be the pillar and ground of the Truth correct me!

BTW, I'm not anti-catholic; I do disagree with some of their/you undersandings.  I will NOT say any of those teachings are heretical, but incorrect.  I'll leave that judgement to God.  I will continue to share what I understand on the issues and why I think other opinions are incorrect.  However, using your apparent definition of herecy, if I'm correct maybe some of your understandings fit your own definition.

You embrace and defend anti-Catholic theologies. It seems like you do it with all sincerity, believing that what you have embraced is the Truth.

Heresy is that which departs from the Once for all Deposit of Faith to the Church. Protetants became separated from that about 500 years ago, and have been creating a new deposit of faith ever since.

 

[PRmerger]

This is very good tracking PR. Thanks for collecting all those references. I have seen this pattern also. Right on!

That was worth a digression from the topic.

shaw:

I rather like doing this, you know.

(digressing, that is, not tracking posters who like to hit and run away…)

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Not having Mary in the Christian equation is a HUGE loss. She shared and shares the physical same blood and matter as Our Lord, was by His side at Cana, his Passion, His Resurrection, His Ascension, raised Him to adulthood, and is the Mother of God. That’s a no-brainer. She’s the Theotokos. That’s just common sense for anyone who knows the Early Church view of her. Mary points the way to the Lord. She tells us that all generations will call her blessed. I choose to stay consistent with that. Hail Mary, full of grace…

 

[Dokimas]

Ah. So here it begins. Your modus operandi of posting on a Catholic thread, and then when Truth becomes apparent, running away.

I pray that I am wrong and this is not a hint at the beginning of your disapparance from this thread…but based on your posting history I don’t believe I am making an incorrect assessment:

I am not quite sure why you keep coming to the CAFs and posting, then retreating when your worthy debaters refute your comments. It seems to be a rather cowardly modus operandi–posting questions yet refusing to engage in further dialogue.

Each of these posts are by you, Pat–each from different threads, which you leave after posting for a few days. When Catholics come to provide apologia, you respond with:

You charity has ended dialogue; source

• Thanks for the invitation, but I really do not have anything to add and should not have posted here in the first place and again I do apologize for the rude disruption. source
• I am no longer responding to anyone on this thread because I not interested on being in this thread any longer. source
• for I do not plan to be here much longer; there is no point for me to be here and I have concluded that God probably would rather have me spend my time doing other things. source
• I’m done with the futility unless you are able to recognize or acknowledge some contextual understanding of Scripture–Pat De

All of the above is from just a few weeks of being on the CAFs.

God has clearly called you to be here on the CAFs, Pat. And kudos to you for saying yes! But have some integrity and stick around for the discussions.

I think I can help you understand because I may have been where Pat seems to be. You all say her/his understandings have be correctly refuted. My experience that’s not always correct even though you hold tenaciously to that idea. Then what Pat says is most likely destorted by some here including yourself. Then you call her/him a coward. Not to mention you claim she/he is running away from Truth because she/he won’t accept your understanding.

Most likely this is why Pat feels sick in the stomach. I’ve been there too. It’s very frustrating and disheartening.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Good apologetics relies on patience, charity, not taking things personally, and not being too militantly offensive. Many Catholics in here are quite knowledgable and capable apologists, a credit to their faith, but are so reactionary and easily-stirred that they have the reverse affect of turning people away. Honestly, my wife and I are talking about returning to Catholicism. Probably soon. I have many doubts and questions myself and I must say that the lack of charity, the win at all costs dialogue, the triumphalism, and bragging as well as condescention at times in here has actually done more to keep me away from Catholicism. My intellect and heart are more Catholic than anything and I am feeling a pull of sorts I think. And if, which I am most likely going to do, I go back to Catholicism, I will never be the type of apologist for the faith that is ready to snap, bark, attack, and take things personally.

Don’t give up on the Catholic Faith and also realize that many of these Catholic posters have great intentions but the delivery doesn’t always come out the right way. Passions, pride, and sin affect us all. We’re all frail human beings with egos to bruise, me included! God bless.

I think I can help you understand because I may have been where Pat seems to be. You all say her/his understandings have be correctly refuted. My experience that’s not always correct even though you hold tenaciously to that idea. Then what Pat says is most likely destorted by some here including yourself. Then you call her/him a coward. Not to mention you claim she/he is running away from Truth because she/he won’t accept your understanding.

Most likely this is why Pat feels sick in the stomach. I’ve been there too. It’s very frustrating and disheartening.

 

[Dokimas]

Don’t give up on the Catholic Faith and also realize that many of these Catholic posters have great intentions but the delivery doesn’t always come out the right way. Passions, pride, and sin affect us all. We’re all frail human beings with egos to bruise, me included! God bless.

Speaking for myself, I have wrong passions, pride and other sins that affect me. I understand I’m NO better than anyone else and subject to wrong understanding just as anyone else here at CAF.

I too am frail. God knows my frame and it’s but dust.

Thanks for sharing God’s blessing with me. I share it back to you.

 

[PRmerger]

I think I can help you understand because I may have been where Pat seems to be. You all say her/his understandings have be correctly refuted. My experience that’s not always correct even though you hold tenaciously to that idea. Then what Pat says is most likely destorted by some here including yourself. Then you call her/him a coward. Not to mention you claim she/he is running away from Truth because she/he won’t accept your understanding.

Most likely this is why Pat feels sick in the stomach. I’ve been there too. It’s very frustrating and disheartening.

Pat was using this m.o. long before cowardice was brought up.

(See all my examples).

 

[guanophore]

Then Mary could not be the Ark in Heaven because it existed when Moses was making the Tabernacle because he used the pattern from Heaven shown him by God.

Has it occurred to you that Moses might have seen a vision, like John did in Revelation?

Have you considered that Heaven, and the Mind of God are outside the space time continuum? That God brought these things into being before the foundation of the world?

The Ark that was built by Moses is a shadow of what was to come in the NT. In the NT, the Word, the Staff of Life, and the Bread of Life were contained in the womb and heart of Mary, His Mother…

Heb 8:5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”

I believe the context is the Tabernacle which included the Ark.

Indeed. You will get no disagreement with me on this point.

Correct. That’s true about some of your understandings of Mary, IMO. They are contradicted by the Bible.

But this is not possible, because the Bible was produced out of the same Sacred Tradition from which the understandings of Mary come. They are both from the same Source, and therefore, cannot contradict. If it appears that they do,then the reader has a lack of understanding of one, the other, or both.

 

[PRmerger]

Then Mary could not be the Ark in Heaven because it existed when Moses was making the Tabernacle because he used the pattern from Heaven shown him by God.

Mary is not the wooden Ark of the covenant made out of acacia wood.

*That *Ark was just a foreshadowing of the real Ark of the Covenant–the person of Mary.

Mary as the Ark of the Covenant has nothing to do with whether she pre-existed Jesus (she did not).

 

[guanophore]

shaw:

I rather like doing this, you know.

(digressing, that is, not tracking posters who like to hit and run away…)

It is a good thing, since you are good at both of them.

I think Pat De has a significant degree of resentment toward Catholicism, so if she needs her space, there is probably a good reason.

 

[Dokimas]

Pat was using this m.o. long before cowardice was brought up.

(See all my examples).

Maybe she/he has been treated as I suggested long before ‘cowardice’ was brought up. BTW, ‘cowardice’ was only a small part of my post and point. You haven’t commented on the rest (of course I haven’t look past this post so I may have ‘egg all over my face’).