Non-Catholics, how is Mary not the Mother of God?

[Dokimas]

Has it occurred to you that Moses might have seen a vision, like John did in Revelation?

Have you considered that Heaven, and the Mind of God are outside the space time continuum? That God brought these things into being before the foundation of the world?

Then you expect the Ark Moses made was in the form of a woman or a womans womb?

The Ark that was built by Moses is a shadow of what was to come in the NT. In the NT, the Word, the Staff of Life, and the Bread of Life were contained in the womb and heart of Mary, His Mother…

Indeed. You will get no disagreement with me on this point.

But this is not possible, because the Bible was produced out of the same Sacred Tradition from which the understandings of Mary come. They are both from the same Source, and therefore, cannot contradict. If it appears that they do,then the reader has a lack of understanding of one, the other, or both.

The NT came about from the letters that circulated in the 1st century. It had little to nothing to do with sacred tradition.

Reading you exatly, did they have the same Source or did the Bible come out of ST as It’s source?

Or maybe some of what is believed to be ST is incorrect. Any part of ST that contradicts the Bible can’t come from the same source, can it?

 

[Dokimas]

Mary is not the wooden Ark of the covenant made out of acacia wood.

*That *Ark was just a foreshadowing of the real Ark of the Covenant–the person of Mary.

Mary as the Ark of the Covenant has nothing to do with whether she pre-existed Jesus (she did not).

I’m not sure why you are telling me Mary isn’t the Ark Moses made. I never said she was nor did I ever say the CC teaches she was.

If you read me carefully, I think you’ll see if you believe Mary is the Ark of Heaven in Hebrews 9, then she pre-existed at least to the time of Moses.

 

[Dokimas]

It is a good thing, since you are good at both of them.

I think Pat De has a significant degree of resentment toward Catholicism, so if she needs her space, there is probably a good reason.

Is Pat De a she?

 

[PRmerger]

Maybe she/he has been treated as I suggested long before ‘cowardice’ was brought up. BTW, ‘cowardice’ was only a small part of my post and point. You haven’t commented on the rest (of course I haven’t look past this post so I may have ‘egg all over my face’).

Perhaps she has been treated rudely. That’s what the mods are for.

However, I’m just saying I see the pattern and it’s not a noble way to dialogue.

 

[PRmerger]

If you read me carefully, I think you’ll see if you believe Mary is the Ark of Heaven in Hebrews 9, then she pre-existed at least to the time of Moses.

She is the new Ark of the Covenant. And in being so she does not have to pre-exist Jesus, like you believe John did.

 

[PRmerger]

The NT came about from the letters that circulated in the 1st century. It had little to nothing to do with sacred tradition.

Maybe if you tell us what you think “sacred tradition” is, then we can discuss from the same starting point.

 

[PRmerger]

It is a good thing, since you are good at both of them.

LOL! It’s good to be good at something!

I think Pat De has a significant degree of resentment toward Catholicism, so if she needs her space, there is probably a good reason.

Perhaps.

Again, I’m just sayin’ that it’s not a gracious way to dialogue.

 

[Dokimas]

Perhaps she has been treated rudely. That’s what the mods are for.

However, I’m just saying I see the pattern and it’s not a noble way to dialogue.

I don’t need the mods to see when someone is being treated rudely.

Isn’t the mods place to decide what’s noble and what’s not?

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t need the mods to see when someone is being treated rudely.

Isn’t the mods place to decide what’s noble and what’s not?

:dts:

 

[Dokimas]

:dts:

Could you clarify, please?

 

[jlhargus]

We seem to agree that there was a time that God the Son did not have flesh and God use Mary as the vessel for the incarnation when God the Son entered Human Flesh.

JL: Of course there was a time God the Son did not have flesh. God the Son BECAME the GOD MAN when he was born of Mary the mother of God. God did not ENTER Human Flesh, God BECAME HUMAN. The Word was God, THE WORD BECAME FLESH=HUMAN. God did not inhabit a body of flesh God BECAME FLESH=HUMAN. God BECAME HUMAN uniting his nature as God with his humanity. To deny Mary is mother of God IS to deny God BECAME human, scripture tells us this is the spirit of anti-christ.

1Jn4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that JESUS CHRIST is COME IN THE FLESH is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Not if John the Baptist pre-existed as Elijah as Jesus said.

[Jn1:19 And THIS IS THE RECORD OF JOHN, when the Jews sent priests and LEVITES from Jerusalem to ASK HIM, WHO ART THOU? 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I AM NOT THE CHRIST. 21 And they asked him, What then? ART THOU **ELIAS? And he saith, I AM NOT. ART THOU THAT PROPHET? And he answered, NO. 22 Then said they unto him, WHO ART THOU? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 23 He said, I AM THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, Make straight the way of the Lord, AS SAID THE PROPET ESAIAS.]

[Jn1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, WHY BAPTIZEST THOU then, IF thou be NOT that CHRIST, **NOR ELIAS, NEITHER THAT PROPHET?]

Lk1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb. 16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. 17 And HE SHALL GO BEFORE HIM IN THE SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIAS, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. 18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.

So is Elizabeth mother of Elijah?

 

[Dokimas]

Jn1:19 And THIS IS THE RECORD OF JOHN, when the Jews sent priests and LEVITES from Jerusalem to ASK HIM, WHO ART THOU? 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I AM NOT THE CHRIST. 21 And they asked him, What then? ART THOU ELIAS? And he saith, I AM NOT. ART THOU THAT PROPHET? And he answered, NO. 22 Then said they unto him, WHO ART THOU? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 23 He said, I AM THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, Make straight the way of the Lord, AS SAID THE PROPET ESAIAS.]

You mean John was not all knowing? John is like me; sometimes my understanding of the Truth is different that the understanding of Jesus. I don’t feel so bad knowing God uses people that don’t know everything.

So is Elizabeth mother of Elijah?

Surrogate, sure I’ll buy that.

Maybe God’s ways are beyond our understanding. We don’t have to understand everything to trust Jesus. If we wait til we understand all we’ll never come to Him.

 

[guanophore]

Then you expect the Ark Moses made was in the form of a woman or a womans womb?

No, I expect Moses made the Ark just like he saw in his vision.

The Ark that was built by Moses is a shadow of what was to come in the NT. In the NT, the Word, the Staff of Life, and the Bread of Life were contained in the womb and heart of Mary, His Mother…

The NT came about from the letters that circulated in the 1st century. It had little to nothing to do with sacred tradition.

Yes, they were letters that were circulated. The letters reminded the believers of the Sacred Tradition that had been committed to them by their Apostles. They gave instructions on how to live according to the Word of God they had received already.

 did they have the same Source or did the Bible come out of ST as It's source?

Both came from the HS. The Bible is the product of Sacred Tradition, which is the revelation of God.

Or maybe some of what is believed to be ST is incorrect.

This is not possible. The Sacred Tradition comes from the HS. He cannot be “incorrect”. Some of the traditions of men may not be correct, and have not been. That is why it is so important to distinguish between the two.

Any part of ST that contradicts the Bible can’t come from the same source, can it?

There is no Sacred Tradition that contradicts Scripture. No, they are from the same Source, so they complement one another.

 

[guanophore]

Is Pat De a she?

Pat De reasons emotionally, so I assumed she was.

 

[jlhargus]

You mean John was not all knowing? John is like me; sometimes my understanding of the Truth is different that the understanding of Jesus. I don’t feel so bad knowing God uses people that don’t know everything.

JL: I have no idea what you are talking about here.

Surrogate, sure I’ll buy that.

JL: So which body will Elias have in the resurrection, the one from his first mother or the one from his SURROGATE mother?

John was not literally Elias as the scripture clearly teaches.

Lk1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb. 16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. 17 And HE SHALL GO BEFORE HIM IN THE SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIAS, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. 18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.

Maybe God’s ways are beyond our understanding. We don’t have to understand everything to trust Jesus. If we wait til we understand all we’ll never come to Him.

JL: Who said we had to understand everything? Again I don’t know what you are talking about here. If you don’t KNOW something then DON’T make up things. By the way are you United Church of Christ, Church of Christ in Christian Union or one of the other Churches of Christ demoninations. That is the only group I have ever heard teach Mary was a surrogate. By the way surrogates don’t conceive, the fertilized egg is implanted.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Sounds like the principal I work for. She’s retiring in one year. I beg the Lord to send us a male pricipal, just once! LOL

Pat De reasons emotionally, so I assumed she was.

 

[jlhargus]

You mean John was not all knowing? John is like me; sometimes my understanding of the Truth is different that the understanding of Jesus. I don’t feel so bad knowing God uses people that don’t know everything.

JL: I have no idea what you are talking about here.

Surrogate, sure I’ll buy that.

JL: So which body will Elias have in the resurrection, the one from his first mother or the one from his SURROGATE mother?

John was not literally Elias as the scripture clearly teaches.

Lk1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb. 16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. 17 And HE SHALL GO BEFORE HIM IN THE SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIAS, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. 18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.

Maybe God’s ways are beyond our understanding. We don’t have to understand everything to trust Jesus. If we wait til we understand all we’ll never come to Him.

JL: Who said we had to understand everything? Again I don’t know what you are talking about here. If you don’t KNOW something then DON’T make up things. By the way are you United Church of Christ, Church of Christ in Christian Union or one of the other Churches of Christ demoninations. That is the only group I have ever heard teach Mary was a surrogate. By the surrogates don’t conceive, the fertilized egg is implanted.

 

[guanophore]

Sounds like the principal I work for. She’s retiring in one year. I beg the Lord to send us a male pricipal, just once! LOL

Or a woman whose reasoning is not running amok as the result of emotional dyscontrol.

Women reason differently than men. God made men and women differently, so that they could complement one another. Maybe she just needs a good male assistant to give her balance?

 

[Dokimas]

No, I expect Moses made the Ark just like he saw in his vision.

The Ark that was built by Moses is a shadow of what was to come in the NT. In the NT, the Word, the Staff of Life, and the Bread of Life were contained in the womb and heart of Mary, His Mother…

Yes, they were letters that were circulated. The letters reminded the believers of the Sacred Tradition that had been committed to them by their Apostles. They gave instructions on how to live according to the Word of God they had received already.

Both came from the HS. The Bible is the product of Sacred Tradition, which is the revelation of God.

This is not possible. The Sacred Tradition comes from the HS. He cannot be “incorrect”. Some of the traditions of men may not be correct, and have not been. That is why it is so important to distinguish between the two.

There is no Sacred Tradition that contradicts Scripture. No, they are from the same Source, so they complement one another.

Your opinion is noted. Thanx.

 

[PRmerger]

Sounds like the principal I work for. She’s retiring in one year. I beg the Lord to send us a male pricipal, just once! LOL

Ooohhh, yes! We need male principals 'cause, as well all know, ***women can’t keep secrets. *** Which provides a good apologia for the CC’s teaching against women’s ordination–how could a woman priest keep the confessional sacrosanct? She’d want to go blab the latest gossip to the other priestesses! (This is actually an explanation my mother has given before. )

Note: I am speaking with tongue firmly planted in cheek!