Non-Catholics: Where's the inspired list?

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Hmm all very much worldly this, where did Paul get his inspiration? He got it through the Holy Spirit as did all believers, we can learn in many places, through thousands of books, the internet even, many teachers, our grounding in the true faith must be firm though and our relationship to God through Jesus on a firm footing as long as it agrees with scripture in it’s meanings, and the Spirit is in agreement, then it is good.
I’ve actually gone and printed ’ the early church fathers: anti-nicene fathers vol 1’
Been digging into Irenaeus against heresies, hard reading, but interesting, against gnostics and a belief of theirs that there’s a purgatory and a queen of heaven, he’s against it as am i.
To him it’s absolutely rediculous that anyone could believe such stuff, or be misled by it.
In my life i was called to read then study the bible, it was a calling, because, compared to most friends, I found it enthralling,
i’ve read it many, many times through, it’s the greatest set of books ever written, i’ve read different versions of it, even German ones now, it still has more to say to me, i have more to learn and this process doesn’t end, remember this though, we are human as was Peter and Paul, we must be carefull not to eat just the things we want to (possibly even out of context), we must let the Spirit of God lead us.
There is no list for me, i would read anything perporting to be Christian, yet some things i have felt (sensed - been told by the spirit ) are poisonous.
I read fantasy books, yet these are fantasy and remain so to me.
I’ve read about Francis of Assisi, that was great, many Christian books are great! Yet above all these is the Bible and above that is God our Father, who caused it to be written and put together.
Wow!!! didn’t think i’d ever be reading Irenäus though!
Still this site did egg me on a bit.
Thanks once more folks.
Remenber this, we make mistakes, Gods spirit never does, the disciples chose a 12th apostle to take the place of Judas, they didn’t wait for the Spirit to come as Jesus told them to!
Jesus through the Holy Spirit chose Saul, a persecuter and killer of Christians as the 12th to take the place of Judas!
You could say Judas followed, then betrayed!
Saul betrayed, then became Paul and followed!
Rubs against our wanting to control everything doesn’t it, we like democracy. God doesn’t.
Don’t think the way men think, let God work, as He always has!
It is written-‘be still and know that i am God’ Ps 46,
Hey Psalm 37’s great too, still the whole Bibles great, so that’s nothing new!
Gods’ blessings be with you as you live in Him.
May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you always.
Once more, Thanks everyone on this site.
 
PS I don’t think you’ll find many non-Catholics visiting here!
 
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Timothy888:
PS I don’t think you’ll find many non-Catholics visiting here!
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No guts, no Glory to God. If they can’t substantiant the inspiration of the books of the Bible from itself then they how do they know that they have an inspired canon at all?

This is all about truth, that’s all.

Let’s look at Jude as I said in post # 1

“So…now prove to us the inspiration of each and every book in the Bible. Let’s start with Jude, which quotes two non-Canonical books of Jewish traditional writings as inspired text. (The Assumption of Moses and The Book of Enoch)”

Tell me non-Catholics…how do you reconcile the inspiration of this book of the Bible?
 
CM, you reckon you’d get a better response in Non-Catholic Religions?
 
Ah you mean non Roman Catholics, big difference there!
Jude apparently wanted to write a treatise on salvation, but because of a problem of the time, nostics again! was called to write against these troublemakers to defend the Church and the faith, in writing it he used reference to writings that he considered useful in getting his arguements across, as did Paul in 1 Cor 15:33, hey, you can use a reference to Tolkien if God calls you to, to get a point across, or star wars if it helps,after all the people you are speaking to have to understand you, yet Jude stayed within the Spirit in what he tried to get across, not to listen to people who are supposedly spiritual, yet sin in the flesh, for they are false, hold true to what the Apostles of Jesus taught (because at that time i do assume the new testament was not complete, i think only 1,2 and 3 John were written after Jude, do correct me if i’m wrong) I can only assume they had heard the apostles speak, at this time most things were word of mouth, or letters.
They all fit in with the rest of the writings in the new testament though.
I’m sure the Church of Jerusalem worked hard at getting them finished along with all the other Churches, I’m sure they were guided by the Spirit for so an important task and well trained for this task. whether it was finished by the Roman church or not,
it was finished.
There were unbelievers in all the churches, as there are today, new age is a sort of cancerous movement as were the gnostics then.
So the fight against impurity in the church continues, the teaching must be on a level with the teachings of Christ though, otherwise it is known that false teaching is not from Christ, as false tradition isn’t either.
Don’t look at the tradition of what you were, look at what you have become over the centuries, look at what was taught and is taught,
look at the traditions of Christs Church, even the early Church Fathers, the Apostles and what they taught, Remember Jesus and God are the same, yesterday, today and forever.
Once the Roman Church was pure and had nothing to do with politics, today it is a city unto itself, full of politics and earthly riches.
Christ taught us how to be, He taught the Apostles how to be and they taught others, today we are truely blessed to be able to read Jesuses own words, as reported by the apostles themselves.
God knows this of course, as does Jesus.
So the responsibility we have as believers is greater than ever and the unity made difficult through egoism, every church wants to be the only right one!
Every other church must therefore be wrong, where was this egotism taught in the Bible?
It’s why i take no denominational name, the Church of Christ never had one, were i to only follow Paul (be a Paulist)and his words alone, or Peter(be a Peterist) and his words alone,I’d be wrong, they point, if i do not go where they point that would be terrible.
They point to Jesus, to Him i go.
Jude, a nice short book from a time when the church of even Rome was open to truth in love, not closed unto itself with its own doctrines.
I don’t honestly know if meat or milk is called for online, some would read this and run, others would think and pray and study.
Some would even pray for my salvation and return to the ‘flock’
Whatever you do, do it in Love, i left the Roman Church, because it no longer taught as it should and strangled the Spirit of God with it’s rules and non-biblical beliefs.
Though since that time i have learnt much, were the clocks rolled back with what i know now i’d have tried to do something from within, but i was too zealous and to be honest my love was not as strong as it has become over the years.
God bless you all as you walk in Jesus’ footsteps
 
Peace be with you!
Church Militant:
ooooohhhhh yeah…Well, maybe a serious sort of scholar might deal with this and attempt to enlighten us?
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Why do you insist in listening to vain human philosophy, when you can listen to the word of God? :rolleyes:

In love,
Psalm 45:9
 
If we do get any more Protestants here, they would probably enjoy seeing some pages from their earliest Bible! Here’s a link:

catholicapologetics.net/martin_luthers__apocrypha.htm

Martin Luther diligently translated the “Apocrypha” into German and had it printed in 1534 as the “Martin Luther German Bible”.

catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0009sbs.asp

And in response to the common response:
3. But the seven deuterocanonical books were added at the Council of Trent (1546) in order to justify Catholic doctrinal inventions.

This is a myth that always comes up but is simple to answer. At the Council of Rome in 382, the Church decided upon a canon of 46 Old Testament books and 27 in the New Testament. This decision was ratified by the councils at Hippo (393), Carthage (397, 419), II Nicea (787), Florence (1442), and Trent (1546).

Further, if Catholics added the deuterocanonical books in 1546, then Martin Luther beat us to the punch: He included them in his first German translation, published the Council of Trent. They can also be found in the first King James Version (1611) and in the first Bible ever printed, the Guttenberg Bible (a century before Trent). In fact, these books were included in almost every Bible until the Edinburgh Committee of the British Foreign Bible Society excised them in 1825. Until then, they had been included at least in an appendix of Protestant Bibles. It is historically demonstrable that Catholics did not add the books, Protestants took them out.

Luther had a tendency to grade the Bible according to his preferences. In his writings on the New Testament, he noted that the books of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation were inferior to the rest, and they followed “the certain, main books of the New Testament.” In 1519, this same attitude fueled his debate against Johannes Eck on the topic of purgatory. Luther undermined Eck’s proof text of 2 Maccabees 12 by devaluing the deuterocanonical books as a whole. He argued that the New Testament authors had never quoted from the seven books, so they were in a different class than the rest of the Bible.

And here is the crucial information they contained:

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?Pgnu=1&Pg=Forum9&recnu=22&number=438095
In the 16th century, Martin Luther adopted the Jewish list, putting the Deuterocanonical books in an appendix. He also put the letter of James, the letter to the Hebrews, the letters of John, and the book of Revelation from the New Testament in an appendix. He did this for doctrinal reasons (for example: 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 supports the doctrine of purgatory, Hebrews supports the existence of the priesthood, and James 2:24 supports the Catholic doctrine on merit). Later Lutherans followed Luther’s Old Testament list and rejected the Deuterocanonical books, but they did not follow his rejection of the New Testament books.
 
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Eden:
He argued that the New Testament authors had never quoted from the seven books, so they were in a different class than the rest of the Bible.
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And St. Paul quoted Pagan poetry, are they the Word of God? :confused:
 
Psalm45:9:
And St. Paul quoted Pagan poetry, are they the Word of God? :confused:
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Jude also quotes sources deemed not inspired. Likewise, the NT authors do not quote a bunch of OT books that everyone agrees are inspired.
 
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Eden:
If we do get any more Protestants here, they would probably enjoy seeing some pages from their earliest Bible! Here’s a link:

catholicapologetics.net/martin_luthers__apocrypha.htm

Martin Luther diligently translated the “Apocrypha” into German and had it printed in 1534 as the “Martin Luther German Bible”.

Thank you very much, i visited these sites and found them interesting, yes the non-canonical books are used, but Luther made sure it was noted, as such they are an interesting point of study to see how people lived then and the sins commited at that time against God, but never inspired by God and as such not to be counted in the same light, Luther dropped books he shouldn’t have, but this was relatively quickly ammended, i think within 30 years.
Many of the Apocryphal books teach heresy, against the word of God. Magic with the fish to deter demons and the devil, that’s pure witchcraft and Satanic Tobit 6:5-8
These books were rejected by most of the early church fathers, They were accepted as Cannon only by the Roman church.
Augustine the ‘Father of corrupt theology’ influenced the Councils of Hippo and Carthage in (393 and 397) A.D.To declare the apocrypha canonical. This has never been ammended in more than 600 years! Instead poor people have been expected to take this dangerous trash literature as Gods’ word, there’s a danger in Christs church today once more of gnosticism, it stretches through all Christian churches, yet very few suggest praying to the Queen of heaven, to most Christians this is Incredibly Abhorrent as it was to Irenaeus one of the Church Fathers who wrote much on the subject, wish all his stuff could have been rescued, nice that some of it was though.

catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0009sbs.asp

And in response to the common response:
3. But the seven deuterocanonical books were added at the Council of Trent (1546) in order to justify Catholic doctrinal inventions.

This is a myth that always comes up but is simple to answer. At the Council of Rome in 382, the Church decided upon a canon of 46 Old Testament books and 27 in the New Testament. This decision was ratified by the councils at Hippo (393), Carthage (397, 419), II Nicea (787), Florence (1442), and Trent (1546).

Further, if Catholics added the deuterocanonical books in 1546, then Martin Luther beat us to the punch: He included them in his first German translation, published the Council of Trent. They can also be found in the first King James Version (1611) and in the first Bible ever printed, the Guttenberg Bible (a century before Trent). In fact, these books were included in almost every Bible until the Edinburgh Committee of the British Foreign Bible Society excised them in 1825. Until then, they had been included at least in an appendix of Protestant Bibles. It is historically demonstrable that Catholics did not add the books, Protestants took them out.

Luther had a tendency to grade the Bible according to his preferences. In his writings on the New Testament, he noted that the books of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation were inferior to the rest, and they followed “the certain, main books of the New Testament.” In 1519, this same attitude fueled his debate against Johannes Eck on the topic of purgatory. Luther undermined Eck’s proof text of 2 Maccabees 12 by devaluing the deuterocanonical books as a whole. He argued that the New Testament authors had never quoted from the seven books, so they were in a different class than the rest of the Bible.

And here is the crucial information they contained:

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?Pgnu=1&Pg=Forum9&recnu=22&number=438095
]Peace to you and grow strong in Christ our Lord
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Psalm45:9:
And St. Paul quoted Pagan poetry, are they the Word of God? :confused:
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When it’s not against the rest of the Bible it is, and in the context it’s very apt, what are words, God can use them through anyone.
 
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Timothy888:
When it’s not against the rest of the Bible it is, and in the context it’s very apt, what are words, God can use them through anyone.
Click to expand...
And the Deuterocanoncicals do not go against the rest of the Bible.
 
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Genesis315:
Jude also quotes sources deemed not inspired. Likewise, the NT authors do not quote a bunch of OT books that everyone agrees are inspired.
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The NT authors did not directly quote the Dueterocanonicals, but there are allusions. The Epistle to the Hebrews makes an allusion to the Mother and the 7 sons in 2 Maccabees. Many of Jesus’ parables make allusions Sirach and the Passion according to St. Matthew makes an allusion to Wisdom.
 
Psalm45:9:
And the Deuterocanoncicals do not go against the rest of the Bible.
Click to expand...
Tobit 6:5-8
Tob 6:5 So the yong man did as the Angel commaunded him, and when they had rosted the fish, they did eate it: then they both went on their way, till they drew neere to Ecbatane.

Tob 6:6 Then the yong man saide to the Angel; Brother Azarias, to what vse is the heart, and the liuer, and the gall of the fish?

Tob 6:7 And he said vnto him, Touching the heart and the liuer, if a deuil, or an euil spirit trouble any, we must make a smoke thereof before the man or the woman, and the party shalbe no more vexed.

Tob 6:8 As for the gall it is good to anoint a man that hath whitenesse in his eyes, and he shalbe healed.

Witchcraft would never be taught by an angel of God.

Money gets you into heaven!!!
Sirac and Tobit! I always was taught Jesus was the only way!
Sir 3:30 Water will quench a flaming fire, and almes maketh an attonement for sinnes.
and
Tob 12:8 Praier is good with fasting, and almes and righteousnesse: a little with righteousnes is better then much with vnrighteousnesse: it is better to giue almes then to lay vp gold.

Tob 12:9 For almes doth deliuer from death, and shall purge away all sinne. Those that exercise almes, and righteousnesse, shall be filled with life.
And of course the only support for Immaculate conception in Wisdom of Solomon
Wis 8:19 For I was a wittie child, and had a good spirit.
Wis 8:20 Yea rather being good, I came into a body vndefiled.
None of this is in harmony with scripture
 
OOps i’m getting away from the original string here, somebody pull me back onto it, though i would say in general thet the inspired list would be the books as they stand in the new testament and the books in the Jewish canon, the rest is perhaps good for reference, you can quote them if you like, but not as scripture, many of the the Deuterocanonical books teach herasy, against the word of God.

But this is what Jesus made sure the early church did, the deuterocanonical books only became canon in the Roman church after it killed one of Gods children sent to reprove it, and excomunicated another.Instead of doing what Christ wanted.
 
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Timothy888:
1.
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So the fight against impurity in the church continues, the teaching must be on a level with the teachings of Christ though, otherwise it is known that false teaching is not from Christ, as false tradition isn’t either.

2.Don’t look at the tradition of what you were, look at what you have become over the centuries, look at what was taught and is taught, look at the traditions of Christs Church, even the early Church Fathers, the Apostles and what they taught, Remember Jesus and God are the same, yesterday, today and forever.

3.Once the Roman Church was pure and had nothing to do with politics, today it is a city unto itself, full of politics and earthly riches.

**4.**Christ taught us how to be, He taught the Apostles how to be and they taught others, today we are truely blessed to be able to read Jesuses own words, as reported by the apostles themselves.

5.God knows this of course, as does Jesus.
So the responsibility we have as believers is greater than ever and the unity made difficult through egoism, every church wants to be the only right one!

Every other church must therefore be wrong, where was this egotism taught in the Bible?

**6.**It’s why i take no denominational name, the Church of Christ never had one, were i to only follow Paul (be a Paulist)and his words alone, or Peter(be a Peterist) and his words alone,I’d be wrong, they point, if i do not go where they point that would be terrible.

**7.**They point to Jesus, to Him i go.
Jude, a nice short book from a time when the church of even Rome was open to truth in love, not closed unto itself with its own doctrines.

8.I don’t honestly know if meat or milk is called for online, some would read this and run, others would think and pray and study.

**9.**Whatever you do, do it in Love, i left the Roman Church, because it no longer taught as it should and strangled the Spirit of God with it’s rules and non-biblical beliefs.
Though since that time i have learnt much, were the clocks rolled back with what i know now i’d have tried to do something from within, but i was too zealous and to be honest my love was not as strong as it has become over the years.
  1. So how do you know that what they have told you is correct? I WAS like you for over 34 years and I HAD TO come home because Christ calls us the the truth…not half of it and all it’s attendant confusion. In studying I found that the teachings of the n-C denoms were not supported by the beliefs & practices of the NT church & that they more closely resmble the Catholic Church of today… The church of today is an beautiful evolution of those early church teachings.
  2. Already answered in # 1
  3. This is nothing more than an anti-Catholic allegation that is not supported by the fact at all. Having been part of several n-C churches and even the non-denoms…I think this is literally the pot callin’ the kettle black. I often have to laugh when I hear folks like you make these kinds of remarks, knowing that there is as much (if not more such bunk going on in them). The Vatican is a diocese like all the rest and they operate at a loss, just like most of them. I’m actually offended that you allege this sort of stuff because no one else stands against ABC, and the culture of death as strongly as we do. Do you artificially contracept? That’s was hated even by the pagans. No one else calls governments to moral accountability. N-Cs can’t agree about what they’s say on their best days…
    cont’d
 
  1. How do you know that those are the inspired books? Who says so?
  2. It’s not about ego, though I could ask the same thing of you. How do I know that your doctrine is correct? I have checked them against the early church’s writings and most I find are not in agreement with them. If you love truth you’ll look beyond the a-C rhetoric at the historical facts and what they really did teach and then…if you’re honest and committed to the truth (like me) you’ll have no choice but to to obey the truth that you will find.
  3. This is completely false. Ignatius of Antioch was bishop of that city & a close friend and disciple of St. John’s and he wrote the following less than 10 years after John died. “Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” so the early church was Catholic in name by then… 77 years after Jesus ascended into heaven.
  4. This is no point, just your lame attack on the Catholic Church. If Jude qoutes the Assumption of Moses and the Book of Enoch into inspired canon, then who says they aren’t inspired too. Who do we trust in this decision?
    You will allege that the church erred and is no longer the christian church which is patently bunk. That thread is called “the Great Apostasy: Fact or Fiction” search for it.
  5. Oh please…bring the meat if you have any to offer, but be advised that it is the result of the study, prayer and guiding of the Holy Spirit that I am Catholic.
If you really were Catholic then you have to be about the most poorly taught I’ve met since you’ve allowed yourself to be led away from the apostolic succession and worst of all the Eucharist. In rejecting that you have lost the greatest and most miraculous treasure of all Christianity. You know full well that you read around the passages that are so very Catholic and that support the sacraments. You can’t tell me that you don’t because i did it and I was probably the most hard core dude you’d ever wanna meet. But I’m not stupid and when someone tells me the Bible teaches something I go lookin’. If you wanna believe all that rhetoric about Catholicism…Hey suits the socks offa me, but don’t try to tell me that you are some sort of Bible believer when I know that that is not true. It’s all there in context and accurate and when you read it with an open heart you can’t miss the call to Catholicism. If it wasn’t truth I sure as vitam aeternam wouldn’t be here defending it to guys like you. Simple as that. I’d be in some easy church that doesn’t catch all the flak from guys like you… :rotfl: :rotfl:
  1. This last is a screamin’ case of nothing more than ignorant rhetoric. IF you believe that you need to run away as fast as you can because there’s a whole new breed of Catholics comin’ out into the world my friend and we know what the facts are and all this kind of offensive trash will not stand before the the truth of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit.
There are no errors in Church teaching…there are only people making allegations and misrepresentations of the truth…worse still there are those who willfully bear false witness against us and I say with St. Paul. “May God repay them” (2nd Timothy 4:14)

Finally…you failed to deal with the topic of this thread and have drawn me off topic as well but I’d puke if I read that and let you hijack my thread to use as platform for this anti-Catholic drivel and your evangelism. I suggest that YOU do the study…from real Catholic sources like the Catholic Home Study Service where the FREE courses will teach you all that you missed when you were part of the real New Testament church. Here’s the link. amm.org/chss/chss.htm
Have ya got the guts to do it?

BTW you cannot says you accept the Jewish canon, since my Orthodox Jewish friends tell me that that’s just the Peneteuch The Jewsih canon was certainly not the one set at Jamnia, since they scarcely dealt with that at all and had no councillar authority even among the Jews. History doesn’t support you there and the fact that 90% of all the NT quotes of the OT are from the Greek Alexandrian text should tell you which OT the Apostles used. I figure if it was the Septuagint with ALL the books in it that was good enough for them then it’s just fine for me.
Pax tecum,
 
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Timothy888:
Tobit 6:5-8
Tob 6:5So the yong man did as the Angel commaunded him, and when they had rosted the fish, they did eate it: then they both went on their way, till they drew neere to Ecbatane.

Tob 6:6Then the yong man saide to the Angel; Brother Azarias, to what vse is the heart, and the liuer, and the gall of the fish?

Tob 6:7And he said vnto him, Touching the heart and the liuer, if a deuil, or an euil spirit trouble any, we must make a smoke thereof before the man or the woman, and the party shalbe no more vexed.

Tob 6:8As for the gall it is good to anoint a man that hath whitenesse in his eyes, and he shalbe healed.

Witchcraft would never be taught by an angel of God.

Money gets you into heaven!!!
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Where do you see whitchcraft? Sounds like a nice natural remedy to me:confused: . Even if it’s a miraculous one, I’m sure God can give angels the authority to work miracles in His name. He did it for the prophets.
Sirac and Tobit! I always was taught Jesus was the only way!
Click to expand...
Sir 3:30Water will quench a flaming fire, and almes maketh an attonement for sinnes.
and
Tob 12:8Praier is good with fasting, and almes and righteousnesse: a little with righteousnes is better then much with vnrighteousnesse: it is better to giue almes then to lay vp gold.

Tob 12:9For almes doth deliuer from death, and shall purge away all sinne. Those that exercise almes, and righteousnesse, shall be filled with life.

Or, that goes against Luther’s man-made doctrine of Sola Fide. Probably why he didn’t like this book and why he didn’t like James as well.
And of course the only support for Immaculate conception in Wisdom of Solomon
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Wis 8:19For I was a wittie child, and had a good spirit.
Wis 8:20Yea rather being good, I came into a body vndefiled.
None of this is in harmony with scripture

Oh nice. I never knew about this support for the IC. Thanks for pointing that out. Oh, and it’s perfectly in harmony with Scripture.
 
  1. This is completely false. Ignatius of Antioch was bishop of that city & a close friend and disciple of St. John’s and he wrote the following less than 10 years after John died. “Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” so the early church was Catholic in name by then… 77 years after Jesus ascended into heaven.
    Hmm Ignatious, haven’t finished reading him yet, still didn’t John say:
    1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as yee haue heard that Antichrist shall come, euen now are there many Antichrists, whereby wee know that it is the last time.
    1Jo 2:19 They went out from vs, but they were not of vs: for if they had beene of vs, they would no doubt haue continued with vs: but they went out that they might be made manifest, that they were not all of vs.
 
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