Non confrontational question for any practicing Mormon (former mormons, please state so when posting)

[Jay53]

Those who DO tell us how arrogant and coercive our proxy work is…those critics you are defending, by the way…are wrong to do so. They are wrong to take offense at what we do for the reasons they claim, because what we do is not even close to being as coercive as what they do every time they pray for a dead loved one, or have a Mass said on his behalf, or when they light a candle for her.

Kindly point out to me where, from the point that I “jumped into this conversation”, I have defended those critics of proxy work. Post # or quote would be helpful, thanks.

And I’ll help you out - I believe I “jumped into this conversation” at Post #283.

 

[Jay53]

I would also like to make a general observation regarding prayers for the deceased and/or prayers of intercession in general. From the Catholic perspective (individually), I ask for God’s intercession for things that** I **want. If I am asking for God’s healing of someone it is because it is something that “I” want - I want this person to be healed or to be healthy again. If I am asking God to shorten the time in Purgatory for someone it is because it is again, something that “I” want - I want everyone to be together in Heaven experiencing the joy of being with God. I don’t think I need to ask anyone’s permission to ask for things that “I” want. I don’t need anyone to validate things that I like or that I want. Just because they may not want the same thing does not mean that I cannot ask God for things that I want. And I am always mindful of the fact that God will only answer prayers with a “yes” that are in accordance with His Will.

Hopefully that makes sense to anyone outside the argument going on here that may be reading this.

 

[mfbukowski]

…and that is what we believe.

I have posted what I believe.

 

[zerinus]

I have posted what I believe.

That is okay, provided you make it clear that it is what you personally believe, not what Mormonism teaches.

 

[Jay53]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dianaiad
Those who DO tell us how arrogant and coercive our proxy work is…those critics you are defending, by the way.…are wrong to do so. They are wrong to take offense at what we do for the reasons they claim, because what we do is not even close to being as coercive as what they do every time they pray for a dead loved one, or have a Mass said on his behalf, or when they light a candle for her.

Kindly point out to me where, from the point that I “jumped into this conversation”, I have defended those critics of proxy work. Post # or quote would be helpful, thanks.

And I’ll help you out - I believe I “jumped into this conversation” at Post #283.

 

[Stephen168]

Mormons do not believe that that the Catholic practice of praying for the dead is the same as a proxy baptism for the dead. They are just trying to justify their odd non-Christian practice. (Luke 23:39-43) If Mormons believe that prayer and baptism are the same thing, they would pray for their 8 years olds instead of baptizing them.
It seems to me the Mormon invention of a temple is basically useless unless they can find things to do it. I guess taking baths would be one thing.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Not quite the same thing, Robert. For one thing, how do you KNOW that the folks you are praying for actually want them? One can assume that you know your kid wants to go to college; you have actual conversations with him about it. If you ask him, what if he tells you 'no, Dad, I’m going to join the Navy and not go to college for a few years, and when I do go…if I ever go…I’ll let the Navy pay for it." Would you STILL save the money for college for him?

You’re missing the point Diana. Those in Purgatory are already headed for heaven. They’re not choosing an alternative. And because the prayers we make are in Christ, they are distributed by Christ as He directs. We trust in Him that no one will be "forced’ to accept anything they do not want.

dianaiad:

What you are doing is saving money for him…without the slightest idea whether he wants to go to college or not; you are simply assuming that he does, and will, and will be grateful for your help. Your assumption may well be right…but you don’t KNOW that, do you? Can you imagine for an instant that he might want to be a…street busker, instead?

Yes, we do know that everyone in purgatory, by definition, wants to go to heaven. And Scripture tells us to pray for each other, so we know our prayers are wanted. It’s nothing to worry about.

dianaiad:

I know for a fact that there are quite a few people out there who would be very much against Catholic prayers for their souls. They would be supremely insulted by the very idea…and so, I’m sure, do you know this. Even so, I’ll bet you pray for them anyway, right? Can’t hurt, after all.

I pray for all the souls in purgatory. If a person is in purgatory, they can use the prayers. If they are in purgatory, they are Catholic, regardless of their faith tradition during their earthly life.

dianaiad:

Your analogy is a good one…to prove my point, anyway. You HAVE communication with your kid; you have conversations and know what his goals are. Tell me…would the same point apply if you decided to save up and offer a scholarship to some random stranger with whom you have no communication? One who may well neither want, nor need, your college fund?

And we know from Scripture and Tradition that (1) all in purgatory are in a state of grace and headed for heaven, where they want to be; and (2) that we are to pray for each other, as members of the body of Christ.

So, I think you are still misunderstanding the concept. Sorry I cannot explain it to you any better. As I indicated, analogies are never perfect.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Jay53]

Originally Posted by dianaiad
Those who DO tell us how arrogant and coercive our proxy work is…those critics you are defending, by the way…are wrong to do so. They are wrong to take offense at what we do for the reasons they claim, because what we do is not even close to being as coercive as what they do every time they pray for a dead loved one, or have a Mass said on his behalf, or when they light a candle for her.

Kindly point out to me where, from the point that I “jumped into this conversation”, I have defended those critics of proxy work. Post # or quote would be helpful, thanks.

And I’ll help you out - I believe I “jumped into this conversation” at Post #283.

---

Bump

Still waiting for a response and/or an apology.

I do expect an apology for false accusations.

 

[twopekinguys]

Kindly point out to me where, from the point that I “jumped into this conversation”, I have defended those critics of proxy work. Post # or quote would be helpful, thanks.

And I’ll help you out - I believe I “jumped into this conversation” at Post #283.

---

Bump

Still waiting for a response and/or an apology.

I do expect an apology for false accusations.

Lots of luck with that one. I think you have a better chance of seeing wings on a pig.

 

[dianaiad]

I would also like to make a general observation regarding prayers for the deceased and/or prayers of intercession in general. From the Catholic perspective (individually), I ask for God’s intercession for things that** I **want. If I am asking for God’s healing of someone it is because it is something that “I” want - I want this person to be healed or to be healthy again. If I am asking God to shorten the time in Purgatory for someone it is because it is again, something that “I” want - I want everyone to be together in Heaven experiencing the joy of being with God. I don’t think I need to ask anyone’s permission to ask for things that “I” want. I don’t need anyone to validate things that I like or that I want. Just because they may not want the same thing does not mean that I cannot ask God for things that I want. And I am always mindful of the fact that God will only answer prayers with a “yes” that are in accordance with His Will.

Hopefully that makes sense to anyone outside the argument going on here that may be reading this.

jay, Thank you.

You are indeed praying for what YOU want…but you want stuff happening to other people, and you don’t consult them first.

You seem to be confusing this very simple fact with a criticism of your actually DOING this. As I have mentioned several times, we all do this. We all pray for those who are ill, for the safety and well being of others because that’s what WE want to see. This isn’t a bad thing, at all: we all want what is best for everybody.

…and of course, we all think that what we believe is best for everybody, don’t we? This is not said with any sense of irony; it’s fact. we all believe that we have the Truth,and that Truth would be the best option anybody could choose. You believe that of your beliefs, I believe that of mine.

Here’s the thing…trying one last time to beat this moribund horse…this isn’t about whether praying for the dead is a bad thing. It is simply pointing out that you DO it…and in doing it you don’t consider, the wishes of those for whom you pray unless it is to assume that of course they would welcome what you do.

In fact, your first post…the one you directed me to (283) was a tacit admission of exactly that: you claimed that your prayers were not to ask “God to do something for or to the dead,” but were to ask Him to “have mercy on them, forgive them their sins and bring them to everlasting life with God.” (…er…isn’t that the EPITOME of “doing something to or for them?”) You then went on to say that 'if the deceased…would not want this done then they’re probably not in Purgatory or Heaven anyway." Thus, you are simply assuming that, of course, anybody in Purgatory would want and accept your wishes, prayers, and whatever God did about them.

This is how y’all deal with the matter. It’s not a good thing. It’s not a bad thing. It’s just…a thing.

My point is that this is, whether it is done for the best of reasons, or even if you are correct about them welcoming your efforts 100%, it’s still you being coercive. Perhaps it’s like you being coercive in the sense that a doctor is coercing a patient to do what is required to save his life–when the patient wants his life saved, but it’s still coercion. It is what it is.

By posting as you did, as justifying your prayers,etc., because you believe that you are correct in your beliefs and because you assume that your actions and prayers will be welcome, you were entering into the debate on the side of those who were criticising LDS proxy work because, they claim, we are going against the wishes of the families, and of the dead themselves; in other words, they claim, we are being coercive.

You are, in other words, saying that, even though you don’t take the wishes of those you pray for into account, your beliefs are correct so it’s OK. However, our actions are NOT OK…because of course we are incorrect in our beliefs. Not because they are ‘coercive,’–because your prayers, as well intentioned as they are, are far more coercive–but because we are ‘untrue.’

cont. on next post…

 

[dianaiad]

cont. from last post:
The thing is, Jay, LDS proxy work doesn’t come close to being as coercive as the simplest plea you make in behalf of others. If you have visitors to your home, and if you pray for their safety on the road as they drive home, THAT is more coercive than LDS proxy work, if you didn’t first ask them if they would like you to pray for them.

…because the entire idea behind what we do, in proxy work, is that it must have the complete and willing acceptance of the person for whom it is done in order to be valid.

It’s a very simple concept, Jay. the debate here isn’t about whether it is a good thing or a bad thing to pray for our loved ones. As I have said SEVERAL times now, I think it is a good thing. I do it…and I"ve also said THAT several times. You don’t need to justify it!

The debate is:
a; most of the people in this thread who have criticised LDS proxy work do so because they claim that it is coercive; that we somehow go against the wishes of those who have passed on, and that we go against the wishes of their families and cultural groups.

b: I point out that if they are going to oppose proxy work, they are going to have to find a different reason to do so because, if they are Catholic (or any other sort of Christian, for that matter), they disregard the wishes of those for whom they pray, especially when those prayers are for the dead. In fact, they go further than that; they simply assume that, of course, the dead welcome such prayers. There isn’t even a hint of wonder there as to whether the dead would welcome such prayers. Your posts are shining examples of that inability to wrap the mind around the concept of 'wow, I wonder if they actually want me to do this?"

c: what we do is all about asking. Unlike you, bless you, who simply cannot seem to grok the idea that someone might not want your prayers, we DO accept that some of these people might not want what we offer, and we also accept that some will actually say no…and when they do, what WE do on their behalf is moot. Invalid. It disappears.

I think, Jay, that this a fundamental difference between Mormons and some other Christians; our entire foundation is based partly upon the idea of free will. We do believe, like other Christians, that we cannot save ourselves without God’s grace. However, we also believe that God’s grace is out there for everybody. He doesn’t pick and choose this person over that one; His offer is for all of us. However, we must choose (and there’s that word again) to accept it.

It is a fundamental difference in world view, I think…one that those who accuse us of being coercive when we do proxy work simply do not get. Without that ability to choose, without free will, then all of this----mortality, life, death, beliefs, suffering, joy, family, religion–all of it is nothing more than puppet shadows on a wall.

In general, though, that is one thing that Mormons and Catholics share a bit more than other Christians do; this emphasis upon free will.

Eventually we are asked to give ourselves to God and give Him control over our lives…but that’s the point, isn’t it? He doesn’t TAKE control. We give that control to Him.

COULD God, as an omnipotent and omniscient Being, be in complete control of us and manipulate our strings? Of course He can. Many believe He does. However, we believe that He CHOOSES not to do so; it is His gift to us, that free will. It’s sometimes a very bitter gift; the vast majority of us misuse it; it is still a gift.

 

[dianaiad]

Kindly point out to me where, from the point that I “jumped into this conversation”, I have defended those critics of proxy work. Post # or quote would be helpful, thanks.

And I’ll help you out - I believe I “jumped into this conversation” at Post #283.

---

Bump

Still waiting for a response and/or an apology.

I do expect an apology for false accusations.

Jay:

It might be safe to assume that I have abandoned the debate if I leave for weeks at a time, but it is quite normal for people to actually, y’know, have a life outside these forum virtual walls.

A little patience might be in order, here. As you are by now aware, I did indeed answer you. However, and please don’t be offended by this, my father’s cataract surgery and a trip up the coast took precedence over answering you.

I know, I know…doesn’t seem reasonable, but there it is.

Diana

 

[Jay53]

Lots of luck with that one. I think you have a better chance of seeing wings on a pig.

Given the most recent posts, obviously you are right. She didn’t even *acknowledge *that she made false accusations against me, let alone apologize for them.

And, she continued with the snottiness!

 

[dianaiad]

Given the most recent posts, obviously you are right. She didn’t even *acknowledge *that she made false accusations against me, let alone apologize for them.

And, she continued with the snottiness!

I didn’t make false accusations, Jay. You came in on the opposing side. In later posts you did talk specifically about proxy work and how offensive family members might find it to see their relatives associated with the church in any way. How is my saying so a 'false accusation?"

I AM sorry…that is, I feel sorrow…that you have misunderstood both what we do and what I am trying to say, but being sad that I’m not communicating well enough is not the same thing as apologizing for being wrong, because, frankly, I don’t think I am wrong about this. However, you don’t think you are wrong, either…and I notice that you aren’t apologizing for your beliefs.

I’m not asking you to do that, either…nor should you.

As for 'snottiness…" Jay, there was nothing snotty in my response to you. If you saw ‘snotty’ in my response to your several times repeated comments about my not answering you in a timely enough manner (repeating that post, word for word, THREE TIMES? Now THAT’S snotty!) then…sorry about that, but frankly, m’friend, I DO think that my father’s surgery and a much needed time off trumps your demand for an instant apology for imagined offenses.

 

[Jay53]

I didn’t make false accusations, Jay. You came in on the opposing side. In later posts you did talk specifically about proxy work and how offensive family members might find it to see their relatives associated with the church in any way. How is my saying so a 'false accusation?"

You posted:

Posted by dianaiad: (Post #397) How was I supposed to do that, when you didn’t mention that you didn’t mind proxy work until several days AFTER you jump into the debate?

My first post to you - NOT about Mormon proxy work, but trying to correct your misconceptions about Catholic prayer and practices - which incidentally, you STILL don’t understand, but I’m not willing to even try with you anymore - was on March 2, 2010 at 11:56pm.

My second post - again, having NOTHING to do with Mormon proxy work was on March 3, 2010 at 12:07pm

My third post - again, having NOTHING to do with Mormon proxy work was on March 3, 2:19pm

My fourth post, which first mentions Mormon proxy work at all, was March 3, 2010 at 5:42pm NOT “several days AFTER * jump[ed] into the debate” as you claimed.

If you will also note this was my comment in that post about proxy work.

And again, I am saying there is no decision to be made. I honestly don’t care if you do this proxy work or not.

My next post, on March 3, 2010 at 6:10pm had nothing to do with Mormon proxy work and in fact, did not mention it at all.

My next post, obviously showing my frustration at your inability to understand what everyone was trying to tell you, again has nothing to do with Mormon proxy work.

Next post, (#334) nothing to do with Mormon proxy work.
Next post (#335) nothing to do with Mormon proxy work.
Next post (#338) nothing to do with Mormon proxy work.
Next post (#340) nothing to do with Mormon proxy work. In fact, in this post I was kindly trying to direct someone else to the philosophy section to have their question answered. Which you very snottily told me that you wanted to discuss it here. (Post #362) (After I had already said, go ahead and discuss it if you want to. (Post #355))

Post #351 is where I actually mention Mormon proxy work. Here is part of my post (emphasis added now)

Quite frankly, I don’t think Mormon proxy baptisms are coercive because they absolutely have no effect. My own issue with Mormon proxy baptisms, **(if I even need to have one **

) is the fact that Mormonism, a false religion, is being associated with those who know it to be false.

I then tried to make you see that some people might have a problem with proxy work because it forever links the person IN WRITING with Mormonism (just the fact that the proxy baptism was performed) which they may not appreciate. That’s all. That IS something that you do - you record IN WRITING that a proxy baptism for Mormonism was performed for such-and-such person. Please note that I did not ask you to stop doing it or to even stop recording it. Both options are obviously not feasable nor reasonable.

Post #356:

And I don’t think Mormon baptisms have any effect on anything either

Post #363:

For the gazillionith time, I DON’T BELIEVE MORMON PROXY BAPTISMS COERCE ANYONE TO DO ANYTHING. I THINK THEY ARE USELESS AND HAVE NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER!!!

Then, post #375 (March 5, 2010)

I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MORMON PROXY WORK COERCES ANYONE AT ALL. I DON’T BELIEVE IT HAS ANY EFFECT WHATSOEVER!!! I AM NOT ACCUSING MORMONS OF COERCING ANYONE TO DO ANYTHING - ALIVE OR DEAD!!!

This would be after you posted **again **(#367):

No coercion…and you cannot accuse us of it, especially when you believe that what you do and pray for is just and right because you believe it is just and right.

… to be continued*

 

[Jay53]

…cont’d

THEN, after all of this, on March 6, 2010 (#393) you post your diatribe about how you will not apologize for your faith.

…and I will not apologize for my faith, Jay. I will explain why it is WE believe that those who take offense at what we do are misunderstanding what it is we do. I see absolutely no reason to apologize for giving offense—when we haven’t done what those claiming offense say we did.

Please note; I’m not asking you to apologize for your beliefs, or to change what you believe. I’m simply asking you, and others, to make their judgments according to what actually IS, not upon what isn’t.

However, do you see the irony in requiring me to apologize for my beliefs, to moderate my actions, and to ‘empathize’ with people who completely misunderstand what we do?

First, I NEVER asked you to apologize for your faith. Nor did I REQUIRE you do to anything which you allege in your last question.

Second, you again intimate that I am making judgments about proxy baptism which are unfounded. Which, if you had actually READ the posts, you would know that I have not.

THEN, when I explain to you that I HAVE NOT done any of what you are accusing me of, you post #397:

Those who DO tell us how arrogant and coercive our proxy work is…those critics you are defending, by the way…are wrong to do so.

I have not defended anyone who has said that Mormon proxy baptisms are arrogant and coercive. This was a completely false accusation on your part. I first asked you to address this issue, March 6th at 2:26pm. I then repeated my request on March 7, 2010 at 8:53am just so that the thread wouldn’t get lost at the bottom of the list. I then repeated my request this morning after realizing that you had been online yesterday and had not addressed this thread at all.

Your snottiness has to do with the fact that you added on to your last post:

I know, I know…doesn’t seem reasonable, but there it is.

after indicating that you had other things to do - as if I would not know or understand that; as well as the fact that you posted:

However, you don’t think you are wrong, either…and I notice that you aren’t apologizing for your beliefs.

suggesting AGAIN that I have said that you should apologize for your beliefs which I most emphatically HAVE NOT.

As to this actual debate about Catholic prayer, I will not engage in it any longer with you. Mormons (in general) from what I have learned have a completely different view of prayer and how it works/what it means etc., so I fear that you will not understand anything more that I might add. And I don’t appreciate your attitude towards me and others on this forum. Perhaps others would be willing to discuss this with you.

 

[dianaiad]

Jay,

You came in the middle of the discussion, which WAS specifically about LDS proxy work. That’s what the topic was!

My point was, at the time, that those who criticised us for being coercive were not paying attention, because what we do is far less coercive than Catholic (or for that matter, anybody else’s) prayers to God on behalf of another person when they didn’t ask that other person for permission.

YOUR first post was to address my ‘misconception’ about what Catholic prayer is…and in doing so was defending those others who were also defending their position on LDS proxy work. It is your job to figure out the entire argument of the people whose position you are defending before you jump in and join their side, because you will be held accountable for what they are doing when you defend what they are doing.

The fact is, Jay, you are accusing me of misunderstanding what you are saying about prayer…but the thing is, I’m not.

You tell me that your prayers for the dead are not coercive because you can’t coerce God.

Fine…but I never claimed you were attempting to coerce God. I claimed that what you do when you ask God to show mercy to others, or to shorten their stint in Purgatory, or to do whatever good thing you want for them, is to ask HIM to coerce THEM. It doesn’t matter whether they WANT those good things. It doesn’t matter that they ARE good things. The simple thing is, you don’t ask them. You can’t even get your mind around the concept that they might want to have some (name removed by moderator)ut. That’s fine…that’s your faith.

However, the fact that you believe that nobody would NOT want what God might grant them is irrelevent to the fact that you don’t ask them first. It really is.

And I can think of at least one circumstance where a soul in purgatory might not want you praying to God to shorten his stay there. What if he is so guilt ridden–so self accusatory…that he can’t forgive himself just yet? What if he honestly feels the need to have more time in that place of purging of sins? Some Catholic orders had monks who deliberately punished themselves physically because they believed that was a way to get closer to God, in their view; the more punishment, the more dedication, the closer they were to God.

You don’t think that these devoted men wouldn’t take that attitude with them? I think they might. Now in their case, do you think that they MIGHT object to your prayers for them? Now, of course, you have faith that God would know when their punishment became less a purging and more a pride issue, and thus know when to stop it, …but do you absolutely trust THEM to know this?

In their case, it may well be the appropriate thing to do to ask God to intercede…but if He does, isn’t He doing something for them in spite of them?

Jay, you jumped in the middle of the conversation. I was discussing this issue with other people, and you began defending a position that was directly defending their criticism of us. How in the name of all that is wonderful was I supposed to know that you were pretending that the entire thread didn’t exist, except for what you, specifically had to say?

That’s like asking the guy with the blindfold to pay attention to each shooter individually, and ignore all the others. Sorry, but if you are all standing in a line shooting, it’s too much to expect the target to separate everything into a bunch of separate conversations. That’s what the thread is about…not private chats, but a topic in which several people contribute, hopefully understanding that every contributor to the thread is aware of what the thread is about.

If you want only to talk about what you want to talk about, unrelated to the larger issue, then you need to start a new thread.

 

[Jay53]

Jay, you jumped in the middle of the conversation. I was discussing this issue with other people, and you began defending a position that was directly defending their criticism of us. How in the name of all that is wonderful was I supposed to know that you were pretending that the entire thread didn’t exist, except for what you, specifically had to say?

Again with the snottiness.

First of all, I was not pretending the rest of the thread didn’t exist - I was correcting (or attempting to anyway) your errors regarding Catholic beliefs.

How would you know I was doing that? How about by umm…actually reading what people post… instead of skimming over the posts and lumping everyone together in one category? I understand that you are defensive about this issue, but that doesn’t give you the right to make false accusations about someone - especially after they have corrected you FIVE different times.

YOUR first post was to address my ‘misconception’ about what Catholic prayer is…and in doing so was defending those others who were also defending their position on LDS proxy work

No, I was NOT defending “those others”. My contribution to the thread was to correct your misconceptions about Catholic prayer. You simply generalized and lumped me in with others who may have misconceptions about Mormon beliefs. Just because I don’t agree with one part of your post doesn’t mean I’m automatically “on the other side”. In the same way that you don’t like to have your faith misrepresented, I don’t either.

Even this post of yours gives evidence to your ignorance about the whole concept of Purgatory, how Catholics view it and how Catholics view our relationship to God. You seem to have some odd idea that when someone prays to God, God will answer that prayer/grant the request no matter what - even if it goes against His Will.

You refuse to acknowledge or apologize for your mistakes - and YES, you did make false accusations against me. My last 2 posts clearly showed that. I corrected your beliefs about my position, yet you continued to accuse me of thinking that proxy work is coercive and accused me of defending that position and those that hold it. I think your followup posts are clear enough evidence for everyone else reading this thread, so I suppose that will have to be good enough.

Have a wonderful evening.

 

[Jay53]

I’d also like to apologize to Rebecca J and Robert in SD because both of you posted information about Purgatory and Catholic beliefs which I thought were very informative and insightful (Posts #369 and #404), but in the ensuing argument they seem to have been glossed over. Hopefully others will go back and give them a second look.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’d also like to apologize to Rebecca J and Robert in SD because both of you posted information about Purgatory and Catholic beliefs which I thought were very informative and insightful (Posts #369 and #404), but in the ensuing argument they seem to have been glossed over. Hopefully others will go back and give them a second look.

Hey, no need to apologize.

I think it is important to respond to the errors in Catholic belief and just plain made up stuff that LDS post. I don’t think they are interested, but people reading might assume they actually know what they are talking about, when they don’t.