Non confrontational question for any practicing Mormon (former mormons, please state so when posting)

[mfbukowski]

I completely agree.

 

[dianaiad]

Sorry, you typed over 6000 words! so I just snipped it…

No, I didn’t. If I had they wouldn’t have let me post the thing in one go.

You sure put in a lot of steps for one small passage in James.

You’re right. You not only snipped it, you didn’t READ it. All those ‘steps’ were about the bit in the Book of Mormon, for which I gave the link…and I did THAT to keep the post under 6000 characters. In fact, the conclusion was that you were funny; here you are accusing us of believing that we could get whatever we wanted to if we pray right, and yet the scripture in the Book of Mormon has so many more caveats than the one in James, which is the one YOU are supposed to believe is applicable. That one actually comes out and tells you that if you pray, having faith in Christ, you can have anything you want.

I think I’d give up praying altogether…oh wait, as a mormon I did.

which explains more than you might want to to admit.

I guess Diana, if you think God is that inaccessible it is no wonder you’re still LDS.

But thanks for the explanation. It still reads to me that if you aren’t getting the answer you want, there is something wrong with you.

As I said, you not only snipped the whole thing, you didn’t bother to read it.

 

[dianaiad]

PS…item 5 I disagree with you completely. I prayed as an atheist, expecting nothing. Feeling absolutely ridiculous talking to the air. God gave me a gift called faith. Very unexpected and like nothing I ever experienced in my life.

Really?

Actually, as an atheist we say what you need to do is simply figure that if there IS a God, THEN He will answer you. It’s a matter of having a mind open enough to accept a possibility. You may have felt silly, but you trusted enough to try it.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Really?

Actually, as an atheist we say what you need to do is simply figure that if there IS a God, THEN He will answer you. It’s a matter of having a mind open enough to accept a possibility. You may have felt silly, but you trusted enough to try it.

It was an experiment. There wasn’t really any trust there, more like, let’s try this and see what happens.

I don’t know how anyone could “find” God without His help. I certainly couldn’t do it. I would still be an atheist if I had to figure out the existence of God first, before He helped me out.

No, definitely, I prayed for a very long time before I figured out someone was answering. It was only the encouragement of Catholic friends that kept me going. They kept telling me God heard my prayers, that His hearing my prayers wasn’t dependent on my belief.

This is very logical Diana. To think God disappears because one does not believe He is there, is a very childish way to think.

 

[dianaiad]

It was an experiment. There wasn’t really any trust there, more like, let’s try this and see what happens.

I don’t know how anyone could “find” God without His help. I certainly couldn’t do it. I would still be an atheist if I had to figure out the existence of God first, before He helped me out.

No, definitely, I prayed for a very long time before I figured out someone was answering. It was only the encouragement of Catholic friends that kept me going. They kept telling me God heard my prayers, that His hearing my prayers wasn’t dependent on my belief.

This is very logical Diana. To think God disappears because one does not believe He is there, is a very childish way to think.

Locking Him out of any possibility of accepting Him is a very adult way to think. I know very few atheists who would even try the experiment…and for you to even CALL it an experiment tells me that you were at least able to consider the idea of it coming out differently than you thought it would.

No, you are correct that everybody needs His help…but as you mentioned, you prayed for a long time before YOU figured out that someone was answering. Your friends were right; He heard you, belief or not. it was finally your willingness to hear HIM that made a difference.

And thank you.

I really didn’t want to leave this forum with the last post I wrote to you, in that other thread.

 

[Jay53]

Jay, I never accused you of believing that LDS proxy baptisms were effective, y’know.

For WHAT, specifically?

Seriously. What for?

Seriously? :hypno:

Try reading Posts #412-415 - actually reading them!

 

[mfbukowski]

Locking Him out of any possibility of accepting Him is a very adult way to think. I know very few atheists who would even try the experiment…and for you to even CALL it an experiment tells me that you were at least able to consider the idea of it coming out differently than you thought it would.

D and R:

Notice how much of an Alma 32 experience this is!

I think it is clear that R had some bad experiences with being LDS for whatever reason, but clearly she is still very LDS in attitude just as she accuses me of being Catholic in attitude.

I was in a similar place myself and found the LDS church, coming out of Catholicism into atheism - I think that is why Rebecca and I get along so “well” - we are total opposites.

Male, out of Catholicism into Atheism into the LDS church

Female, out of Mormonism into atheism into the Catholic church

All based on God answering prayers and being guided by the spirit, and being willing to “experiment” a la Alma 32.

This to me just proves that God takes us from where we are to where we need to be to get closer to him.

(But of course that is a totally LDS perspective). I am sure she will have some smart ***** comeback, but that is to be expected I guess.

I have a unique perspective on this I think this week since I am planning my very Catholic mother’s funeral, with the mass and whole thing. It makes one less likely to battle I think.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I have a unique perspective on this I think this week since I am planning my very Catholic mother’s funeral, with the mass and whole thing. It makes one less likely to battle I think.

Condolescences for you mother’s passing bukowski. I’ll have you both in my prayers.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Locking Him out of any possibility of accepting Him is a very adult way to think. I know very few atheists who would even try the experiment…and for you to even CALL it an experiment tells me that you were at least able to consider the idea of it coming out differently than you thought it would.

No, you are correct that everybody needs His help…but as you mentioned, you prayed for a long time before YOU figured out that someone was answering. Your friends were right; He heard you, belief or not. it was finally your willingness to hear HIM that made a difference.

And thank you.

I really didn’t want to leave this forum with the last post I wrote to you, in that other thread.

Perhaps Diana, as in my experiment I came to realize that I was angry at a god, and having this realization, well, what do you think about an atheist who is angry at a god? Obviously there is still belief. That really torqued my shorts. I thought I had purged that god from myself. I had to work through that anger, with this new concept I never heard before, until a Catholic explained to me, that God IS Love.

So you might have a point. I exchanged belief in a false god for Truth, and followed His Love to where I am at today. I give some credit to my mormon upbringing, in that, my anger was directed at the mormon concept of ‘heavenly father’, but it is Jesus who guided me to His Church. He pulls me into Him. Since I never viewed Jesus before as God, I never had that anger aimed at Him and was able to trust Him. Something I could never do with your mormon god.

My prayers were to Him. It took me a very, very long time before I could find myself able to pray a personal prayer to Our Father, other than the prayers at Mass.

Those are my thoughts of late, and as I find myself able to more and more accept the love of God, I’m not so angry at mormonism. I realize that anger comes through in my posts at times, and so I think of leaving it behind, and leave these conversations to Catholics who perhaps are more charitable about this particular subject. I view mormonism as a poison, which is not so charitable I know. But I find lately, during this Lent, I would like to forgive.

Peace be with you.

 

[Jay53]

You are still not getting it. We aren't talking about HIS will, or whether you think everything is up to Him. We are talking about the will and wishes of those for whom you pray. You can't even concieve of the idea that they might want to have any (name removed by moderator)ut, do you? You pray for what you want, and leave it up to God to do what He wants about what you want...but where does what THEY want come into it?

You just don’t get that what God wants trumps what they want - ALWAYS! What God wants trumps what WE want! Still, God **is not coercing **them to do or not do anything. They still have free will. They DO have (name removed by moderator)ut. They can/do give their opinion to God just the same as us. They can ignore what God tries to give them; they can ignore His signs; they can ignore His Church. You still have not shown where there is any coercion on anyone’s part.

Bringing it down a little closer to home here: here is this,oh…wolf cub. You see it abandoned–orphaned by its mom. It’s starving. You report it. You know that the forest service people might already know about this cub, and certainly will (probably) do the best thing for it, but you go ask them anyway; how about capturing and protecting this wolf cub, raising it in captivity and then releasing it into the wild when it’s healthy and old enough? You know that the FS people will either capture the cub or not according to the will (and guidelines) of their jobs, so you’re ok with simply bringing the situation to their attention…though you might nag a little if you don’t see that the cub is getting what you think is the correct attention.

The FS decides that the cub is too young to make it, and there is a way to catch, raise it and keep it wild, so it goes and does it; puts the cub in a humane cage, brings it to a sanctuary, raises it and eventually lets it run free to join a pack. Everything is just dandy.
Right?
Well, where in any of this did you consider what the CUB might want? I know, I know…it is inconcievable that the cub even knows what it wants, much less that it might understand what is being offered enough to make such a decision…and this is why I’m using this example. Nobody ever asks the cub. However, people are not wolf cubs, are they? They are just like you. I imagine that those who have passed on actually know more about the after life than you do, come to think of it; it’s not exactly a stretch to assume this. After all, they are actually THERE, you aren’t. However, you are treating them exactly like you’d treat the wolf cub; assuming that you know what they need more than they do, and asking God, like you ask the Forest Service, to impose your wishes upon them. You are quite willing to accept what HE thinks, says and does, but you never, even once, consider the cub.

That’s where you’re wrong. We do consider the cub. We may not know exactly what the cub does or does not want, but we know that the FS DOES KNOW and we trust them to guide and help the wolf cub as needed.

I think you underestimate the faith and trust that we put in God. We trust in Him completely. We know that He will accept (name removed by moderator)ut from those we are praying for - we trust in Him to do whatever is best for that person according to His Will. There still is no coercion.

To expound on your example with the wolf cub. You’ve added in things that we are not asking for. We would not be asking for the FS to capture the wolf cub and raise it in captivity. That would be taking away free will - which the FS (God) would not do whether we asked Him to or not. So, we don’t even expect or ask Him to. If, for some reason, He did, that was simply His choice and you would have to take it up with Him.

Here’s a closer analogy to what is actually occurring:
Let’s say the FS has a refuge where all the wolves live happily ever after. (Heaven) And there’s this little wolf cub out there who seems to be lost. So we ask the FS to guide the little wolf cub. Now, the FS DOES NOT go out and pick up the wolf cub and put him on the right path, nor do we expect Him to. The FS may try and lead the wolf cub to the right path, i.e. give the wolf cub signs to the right direction, put other wolves in his path to try and lead him in the right direction etc., but it is still up to the wolf cub to follow the signs. He can very easily say, “No, Joe Smith wolf () told me this is the path to follow and I will follow it no matter what.” So the wolf cub ignores all of the FS signs and goes on his merry way. That certainly doesn’t mean we can’t keep asking the FS to help the cub. But there is definitely no coercion going on. If the wolf cub eventually decides to follow one of the signs the FS left and discovers that this new path is the correct path and decides to follow it, was he coerced in any way to follow that path. NO!

To extend the analogy to the souls in Purgatory. If the wolf cub is a soul in Purgatory making its way to the FS refuge, then the wolf cub has already told the FS that it wants to go to the refuge and is already on the path to get there. That is the only path available to him. There is no other path and there are no detours to another destination. The only catch is that he cannot see any available shortcuts to make his trip faster and he cannot avoid any rocky patches or obstacles. He simply has to plod along until he reaches the refuge. We, (with our prayers) would simply be asking the FS to show the wolf cub some shortcuts or to make his journey smooth. If, for some reason, the wolf cub does not want to take any shortcuts or does not want a smooth path, the FS will not give it to him. Again, there is no coercion on anyone’s part whatsoever.

You still have failed to show where there is any coercion.

 

[Jay53]

I have a unique perspective on this I think this week since I am planning my very Catholic mother’s funeral, with the mass and whole thing. It makes one less likely to battle I think.

May she rest in peace.

 

[Jay53]

Jay, I never accused you of believing that LDS proxy baptisms were effective, y’know.

I know. You falsely accused me of believing that Mormon proxy work is coercive and of defending others who hold that position. You also falsely accused me of telling you that you have to apologize for your faith and beliefs.

 

[mfbukowski]

Thanks

 

[ParkerD]

Thanks

MFBukowski,
May I also add my condolences in your loss, and the hope that your entire family will have great peace envelope them during the coming days and weeks. God bless you all.

 

[AMDGtoo]

I am planning my very Catholic mother’s funeral, with the mass and whole thing.

May she rest in peace.

 

[dianaiad]

I know. You falsely accused me of believing that Mormon proxy work is coercive and of defending others who hold that position. You also falsely accused me of telling you that you have to apologize for your faith and beliefs.

I see.

Ok, I apologize. My rationalle for doing so was that you jumped into the middle of the debate squarely in defense of, and on the side of, those who were very clearly of that opinion, so I assumed that you shared the opinions of those you defended. I was wrong about that, and I do owe you an apology. You know what they say about how everybody is worthwhile for something, even if it’s only to serve as a bad example? well, I guess I’m taking my turn at that one in regard to assuming things.

As for the second one, I was using 'You" in the general, rather than the personal sense, as I tend to do when I get involved in threads like this. You see, I don’t think I can ever remember finding myself in the majority opinion in this forum; I’m usually the single fighter (or the one with one or two sympathetic comrades) against five, six or more opponents. Since the attacks seem to be similar in form and tone, I can forget exactly who said what, so I respond to the group rather than the specific poster. That is especially true if I have been embattled in a thread for days or weeks and a newbie jumps in on the side of the other guys. .

…and yes, that is very sloppy of me. So, since being sloppy caused me to misrepresent your position, I do owe you an apology. I’ll make you a deal, though; I’ll try harder to remember who’s holding the sword currently being swung at my head, if you will, when I do this again (and I probably will, for the reasons I just gave you) not automatically assume that I am out to deliberately lie about what YOU, specifically, said.

 

[Jay53]

I see.

Ok, I apologize. My rationalle for doing so was that you jumped into the middle of the debate squarely in defense of, and on the side of, those who were very clearly of that opinion, so I assumed that you shared the opinions of those you defended. I was wrong about that, and I do owe you an apology. You know what they say about how everybody is worthwhile for something, even if it’s only to serve as a bad example? well, I guess I’m taking my turn at that one in regard to assuming things.

As for the second one, I was using 'You" in the general, rather than the personal sense, as I tend to do when I get involved in threads like this. You see, I don’t think I can ever remember finding myself in the majority opinion in this forum; I’m usually the single fighter (or the one with one or two sympathetic comrades) against five, six or more opponents. Since the attacks seem to be similar in form and tone, I can forget exactly who said what, so I respond to the group rather than the specific poster. That is especially true if I have been embattled in a thread for days or weeks and a newbie jumps in on the side of the other guys. .

…and yes, that is very sloppy of me. So, since being sloppy caused me to misrepresent your position, I do owe you an apology. I’ll make you a deal, though; I’ll try harder to remember who’s holding the sword currently being swung at my head, if you will, when I do this again (and I probably will, for the reasons I just gave you) not automatically assume that I am out to deliberately lie about what YOU, specifically, said.

Thank you. :hug1:

 

[mfbukowski]

Thanks again to all.

I am doing fine- she was sick a long time, and my faith is strong.

I just don’t feel like arguing about silly stuff. Death has a way of focusing the attention on important matters.