Non-denominational Christians

[contramundum7]

I am a liberal Catholic. I see nothing wrong with non-denominational Christianity. Many of my friends were non-d. Christians. I think that some Catholics view it as dangerous because sometimes non d. Christians may become confused on how to interpret the Bible. Catholics have the Pope along with many other educated Catholics who interpret the Bible.

In general I see nothing wrong with non d. Christians as long as you are careful about choosing a good church which has a well informed interpretation of the Bible. This shouldnt be a problem there are many great non d. churches. The most imporatnt thing is to love and serve God.

There is no such thing as a “liberal Catholic” - if by that you mean one who supports a woman’s “right” to abortion, you don’t think there’s anything wrong with contraception, etc…
Liberal and Catholic are incompatible terms…

 

[jmcrae]

There is no such thing as a “liberal Catholic” - if by that you mean one who supports a woman’s “right” to abortion, you don’t think there’s anything wrong with contraception, etc…
Liberal and Catholic are incompatible terms…

Maybe he is a liberal Catholic like I am a liberal Catholic - in the sense that the authentic teachings of the Church inform one’s politics and other every-day decisions, and not just affecting Sundays only.

By the way, I think that opposition to abortion and birth control are far more liberal than support of these things, since liberalism is supposed to be about human freedom. A human being who is either dead or enslaved, even by the “free choice” of another person (or even the person herself, in the case of contraception), is not free.

 

[mgupta]

There is no such thing as a “liberal Catholic” - if by that you mean one who supports a woman’s “right” to abortion, you don’t think there’s anything wrong with contraception, etc…
Liberal and Catholic are incompatible terms…

I guess what I meant by liberal Catholic is that I am an open minded Catholic. I still believe that abortion is wrong, but I do not agree with everything the Catholic Church says. I dont think that it is necessary to be Catholic or Christian to attain salvation. That is probably the only thing that I disagree with. I guess when I say liberal I mean open minded.

 

[guanophore]

I am a liberal Catholic. I see nothing wrong with non-denominational Christianity. Many of my friends were non-d. Christians. I think that some Catholics view it as dangerous because sometimes non d. Christians may become confused on how to interpret the Bible. Catholics have the Pope along with many other educated Catholics who interpret the Bible.

In general I see nothing wrong with non d. Christians as long as you are careful about choosing a good church which has a well informed interpretation of the Bible. This shouldnt be a problem there are many great non d. churches. The most imporatnt thing is to love and serve God.

Claiming to be a liberal Catholic is a way of saying one is a heretic or a Protestant using “nicer” language. One who does not accept the teachings of the Church is not Catholic.

 

[mgupta]

Claiming to be a liberal Catholic is a way of saying one is a heretic or a Protestant using “nicer” language. One who does not accept the teachings of the Church is not Catholic.

Are there people who agree with every single thing the Catholic Church says?? I was raised Catholic and have many Catholic values, but I cant say that I agree with everything in the Catholic Church. I still feel Catholic, but I guess to other Catholics I’m a “fallen Catholic”. My parents never taught me it was wrong to have my own opinions regarding faith.

I’m not sure about this, but I think that the Catholic Church makes improvements in the Catechism or develops the doctrine over time. Feel free to correct me on this.

 

[guanophore]

Are there people who agree with every single thing the Catholic Church says?? I was raised Catholic and have many Catholic values, but I cant say that I agree with everything in the Catholic Church. I still feel Catholic, but I guess to other Catholics I’m a “fallen Catholic”. My parents never taught me it was wrong to have my own opinions regarding faith.

I’m not sure about this, but I think that the Catholic Church makes improvements in the Catechism or develops the doctrine over time. Feel free to correct me on this.

No, I agree with you, that the Church does make improvements on the catechism. The essence of the doctrine does not change, but the manner of teaching it does get better. The Church also applies doctrine to current issues. For example, there was no way for the Apostles to anticipate stem cell research, but their teachings are easily applied by the magesterium in a manner that is understandable.

I don’t think it is wrong to have different opinions, or to think for oneself. In the end, what it boils down to is an act of will. Persons that will be received into the Church this week will be asked “Do you believe all that the Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches?” I know that there are many of us that call ourselves Catholic that either don’t know, or don’t agree with the teachings. A liberal Catholic is saying "I refuse to follow’ those teachings. I can still obey things I don’t like, don’t understand, and don’t agree with.

For example, Christ’s teaching to “turn the other cheek” just boggles my mind. It seems to me that, if you let bullies continue, it creates more evil. I think I should DO something! However, I have chosen to obey the command, even though I don’t like it, agree with it, or understand it.

 

[distracted]

I know that the Catholic Church excludes others, because I’ve been to many of them. I know my non-denominational church welcomes Catholics, because we have a couple of people who are Catholic who attend on a regular basis and they have even said themselves that they feel quite welcome.

In my life-long history of being Catholic (and “Catholic” ) I’ve been treated poorly by this or that person in the Church but never in all my years was i told not to come to Mass… and never have i heard of or seen anyone else told that, directly or by “implication”… I feel immediately at home in a Catholic Church no matter waht strange town i a may be in (& i’ve been in a few). It’s because my best Friend lives there. :yup: Jesus said (Matthew 28:20) that He would never leave us; he would be with us until the end… This promise was/is fulfilled in the Catholic Church, where His Real, physical Presence abides 24/7. I get joy just thinking about that.

 

[mgupta]

In my life-long history of being Catholic (and “Catholic” ) I’ve been treated poorly by this or that person in the Church but never in all my years was i told not to come to Mass… and never have i heard of or seen anyone else told that, directly or by “implication”… I feel immediately at home in a Catholic Church no matter waht strange town i a may be in (& i’ve been in a few). It’s because my best Friend lives there. :yup: Jesus said (Matthew 28:20) that He would never leave us; he would be with us until the end… This promise was/is fulfilled in the Catholic Church, where His Real, physical Presence abides 24/7. I get joy just thinking about that.

I agree and this is what I love most about the Catholic Church. No matter where you are the Church is always there and it is the same everywhere.

 

[Janet_S]

Are there people who agree with every single thing the Catholic Church says?? I was raised Catholic and have many Catholic values, but I cant say that I agree with everything in the Catholic Church. I still feel Catholic, but I guess to other Catholics I’m a “fallen Catholic”. My parents never taught me it was wrong to have my own opinions regarding faith.

I’m not sure about this, but I think that the Catholic Church makes improvements in the Catechism or develops the doctrine over time. Feel free to correct me on this.

The important thing is to study the reasons why the Church teaches what it does. If you are going to disagree with the Church, at least be well informed. Don’t just assume that the Church is “out of touch” and “behind the times” and stubbornly hold on to your opinion out of pride. You’ll be surprised at what you learn when you investigate the particular teaching you instinctively have the most problem with. You might end up being its biggest advocate.

And there is so much information out there. There is no excuse in this day and age for not knowing our faith.

 

[guanophore]

Are there people who agree with every single thing the Catholic Church says??

Only Catholics.

I was raised Catholic and have many Catholic values, but I cant say that I agree with everything in the Catholic Church. I still feel Catholic, but I guess to other Catholics I’m a “fallen Catholic”. My parents never taught me it was wrong to have my own opinions regarding faith.

“feeling catholic” does not make you one!

“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?”
Luke 6:46

21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. " Matt 7:21-22

 

[jmcrae]

Are there people who agree with every single thing the Catholic Church says??

Keep in mind that the Catholic Church is the only organization on earth that was established by God (Jesus Christ).

Everything else, including the various kinds of science and psychology that doubt the teachings of the Church, were put together by human beings.

So, if you are saying that you doubt some teaching of the Church because scientists say this, or because psychologists say that, keep it in the back of your mind that God knows more about us than any of these human beings, no matter how many Ph.D.s they may have.

So, when we say that we believe the teachings of the Church, what we mean by that is that we believe Christ. Christ, through the gift of the Holy Spirit, is protecting the Church from teaching us anything that is false. Therefore, whenever there is a disagreement between the Church and modern scientific opinion, it is more likely that the Church is right, than that the science is right.

 

[contramundum7]

I guess what I meant by liberal Catholic is that I am an open minded Catholic. I still believe that abortion is wrong, but I do not agree with everything the Catholic Church says. I dont think that it is necessary to be Catholic or Christian to attain salvation. That is probably the only thing that I disagree with. I guess when I say liberal I mean open minded.

The Catholic Church does not teach you must be Christian to be saved… just that it is easier to be saved if you are…
Is there anything else you disagree with??

 

[mgupta]

The Catholic Church does not teach you must be Christian to be saved… just that it is easier to be saved if you are…
Is there anything else you disagree with??

Yeah, you are right. Its born again christians that say you have to be “saved” to go to heaven. The thing that I disagree with is that I dont think that any one religion has more truth than another. The Catholic Church says that they have more truth than any other religion. Other religions may have some truth but the Catholic Church contains the most. I disagree with this.

 

[mgupta]

Only Catholics.

“feeling catholic” does not make you one!

“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?”
Luke 6:46

21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. " Matt 7:21-22

what makes you a Catholic?

 

[arcadia]

Hi Conundrum, you said:

The Catholic Church does not teach you must be Christian to be saved… just that it is easier to be saved if you are…
Is there anything else you disagree with??

No church saves. I repeat, no denomination, no organization no matter how old. No institution can save you. Only Jesus!
" I am the way the truth and the life. No one, no one ,comes to the father except through me." (Jn14:6) You name is either written in his book of life or it isn’t. Period. Therefore, since a Christian is a follower or disciple of Christ you must be a Christian to be saved. Not a Christian in name only. You cannot be a Christian just because you grew up in a Christian home either. Jesus said “MOST ASSUREDLEY, I say to you, unless one is born of the water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (Jn 3:8) He who belives in HIM is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" Jn 3:19 You cannot be partially pregnant. You are , or you are not. Same with salvation. You are or you are not. Period. You see he went to to prepare a place for his own. “Not everyone who says to me. Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in Your name and cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in your name?” And I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!” Therefore whoever hears these saying of mineand does them…

Worshipping in Spirit and in Truth,

arcadia

 

[arcadia]

Arcadia,

Please read Chapter 16 in the Book of Numbers. That’s what I would like you to comment on.

Janet

Janet, I am familiar with Numbers 16. I scanned it again. It deals with the rebellious sons of Korah.

Do you mean to liken the Catholic Church to Moses? And other Christians as rebellious sons of Korah? I hope not.

in truth,
arcadia

 

[eliasaph99]

Hi Conundrum, you said:

No church saves. I repeat, no denomination, no organization no matter how old. No institution can save you. Only Jesus!
" I am the way the truth and the life. No one, no one ,comes to the father except through me." (Jn14:6) You name is either written in his book of life or it isn’t. Period. Therefore, since a Christian is a follower or disciple of Christ you must be a Christian to be saved. Not a Christian in name only. You cannot be a Christian just because you grew up in a Christian home either. Jesus said “MOST ASSUREDLEY, I say to you, unless one is born of the water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (Jn 3:8) He who belives in HIM is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" Jn 3:19 You cannot be partially pregnant. You are , or you are not. Same with salvation. You are or you are not. Period. You see he went to to prepare a place for his own. “Not everyone who says to me. Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in Your name and cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in your name?” And I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!” Therefore whoever hears these saying of mineand does them…

Worshipping in Spirit and in Truth,

arcadia

What you have written above is true, but you are not carrying the interpretation to its logical conclusion.

To begin, I want to state that being a member of the Catholic Church does not gain a man salvation. Likewise, not being a member does not guarantee a man damnation.

However, I would, in particular, call your attention to the last quote in your statement. “He who does the will of my Father in Heaven…” The will of the Father in Heaven is that we all be united in one Church under one Earthly shepherd. This is why the Father revealed Christs identity to Peter. It is also why Christ said that He would found his Church on Peter, and also why, before Christ ascended into Heaven, He appointed Peter to shepherd the flock.

I would submit to you that by not belonging to the Catholic Church, especially in light of the knowledge you are gaining here, you are being deliberately disobedient and are not doing the will of the Father in Heaven.

When a man knows that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ, and deliberately remains outside of it, he displays flagrant disobedience. He is not following Christ, but is following his own path.

So, I think you’re right. What saves a man is obedience to Christ. A man must be obedient to the teachings of Christ of which he reasonably has knowledge of, without simple willfull refusal to acknowledge those teachings. In light of this, not belonging to the Catholic Church is extremely disobedient, especially to one such as yourself who has knowledge of its truth and has been plainly witnessed to.

 

[guanophore]

Hi Conundrum, you said:

No church saves. I repeat, no denomination, no organization no matter how old. No institution can save you. Only Jesus!
" I am the way the truth and the life. No one, no one ,comes to the father except through me." (Jn14:6) You name is either written in his book of life or it isn’t. Period. Therefore, since a Christian is a follower or disciple of Christ you must be a Christian to be saved.,

This is making God awfully small, Arcadia. Is your Jesus really so narrow and impotent that He cannot save people that don’t know who He is?

Not a Christian in name only. You cannot be a Christian just because you grew up in a Christian home either. Jesus said “MOST ASSUREDLEY, I say to you, unless one is born of the water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (Jn 3:8) He who belives in HIM is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" Jn 3:19

Are you saying that you believe baptism is required?

You cannot be partially pregnant. You are , or you are not. Same with salvation. You are or you are not. Period.

Sounds like some of that OSAS thinking!

You see he went to to prepare a place for his own. “Not everyone who says to me. Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”

So, Arcadia, what is the will of the Father that you must do in order to be saved?

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in Your name and cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in your name?" And I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" Therefore whoever hears these saying of mineand does them…

Worshipping in Spirit and in Truth,

arcadia

You write here that one must practice lawfullness adn obedience in order to attain salvation. However, I wonder if you are even reading what you are writing?

 

[guanophore]

what makes you a Catholic?

Not finding myself to be a very good Catholic I will answer this question in a general manner. I think what makes a person Catholic is believing all the teachings of the Church, and by corollary, practicing those beliefs daily.

 

[Janet_S]

Janet, I am familiar with Numbers 16. I scanned it again. It deals with the rebellious sons of Korah.

Do you mean to liken the Catholic Church to Moses? And other Christians as rebellious sons of Korah? I hope not.

in truth,
arcadia

Arcadia,

I asked you to read the Book of Numbers, Chapter 16 because you posted this:

Arcadia: "**The use of titles separates and exhaults and **demeans. We are all brothers. Do you agree? I have seen people almost worship a pastor or a priest. This is not healthy for the pastor or the church member. Close friends and peers are called by their first names. **By refraining from the titles **we can be closer as friends and brothers. Your priest will still be respected, perhaps more so. He will still be considerd a teacher for that is what he does. However, by dropping the titles we find ourselves looking less to man and more to God."

I asked you to read Numbers 16 because your attitude (from what you wrote above) reminds me of the attitude of Korah and his cohorts:

“With them were 250 Israelite men, well-known community leaders who had been appointed members of the council. They came as a group to oppose Moses and Aaron and said to them, ‘You have gone too far! The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the LORD is with them. Why then do you set yourselves above the LORD’s assembly?’” (Numbers 16:2-3)

The point from Numbers 16 is that God does establish earthly figures of authority–Moses in the OT and the Apostles in the NT. When you go against those in authority, you go against God Himself.

The Church established by Christ has people of authority too:

And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then **workers of **miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? (1 Corinthians 12:28-30)

And here is a question for you. Who is the “Moses” of Christianity today? Who are the “Apostles” of Christianity today?