Non-denominational Christians

[Enoch]

assuming that I wasn’t put off by the comments here you mean
I was
one not working at present

If you have been baptized you are, in fact, a Candidate, not a Catechumen, something you should have been told before you even entered RCIA. So either you are a Candidate or part of the worst RCIA program in history. What rites have you received so far? Were you received into the Church or not?

I’m sorry to hear you are in need of work, however, I find that a little surprising considering there is currently a critical demand for the following medical professionals in the UK:

Doctors:

Salaried GPs

Dentists:

Salaried General Dental Practitioners
Salaried Assistant Dentists
Salaried Vocational Dental Practitioner
Consultants in Dental Specialities

Consultant posts in the following specialist areas:

Accident & Emergency
Additional Dental Specialities
Anaesthetics
Cardiology
Cardiothoracic Surgery
Chemical Pathology
Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
Clinical Neurophysiology
Clinical Oncology
Clinical Radiology
Dermatology
Endocrinology & Diabetes Mellitus
Endodentics
Forensic Psychiatry
Gastroenterology
General Adult Psychiatry
General Internal Medicine
General Surgery
Genito-urinary Medicine
Geriatric Medicine
Haematology
Histopathology
Immunology
Infectious Diseases
Intensive Care Medicine
Medical Microbiology & Virology
Medical Oncology
Neurology
Neurosurgery
Nuclear Medicine
Obstetrics & Gynaecology
Occupational Health
Old Age Psychiatry
Opthalmology
Oral & Maxillo-facial Surgery
Orthodontics
Otolaryngology
Paediatric Cardiology
Paediatrics
Palliative Medicine
Plastic Surgery
Psychotherapy
Public Health Medicine
Rehabilitation Medicine
Renal Medicine
Respiratory Medicine
Rheumatology
Trauma & Orthopaedic Surgery
Urology

General:

Audiologist
Audiological Scientist
Clinical Psychologist
Dietician
Occupational Therapist
Pharmacists
Pharmacy Technician
Pre-Registration Cytogeneticists
Senior Physiotherapist
Speech & Language Therapist
Social Worker
State Registered Scientists in Cytogenetics
Biomedical Scientist / Medical Laboratory Scientific Officer (MLSO)
Qualified HPC Registered Diagnostic & Therapeutic Radiographers, including Ultrasonographers

I wish you the best of look in your pursuit for employment as a Doctor. Perhaps you should look into some of these. What did you do before you became an unemployed Doctor? God bless.

 

[arcadia]

This is exactly what I am referring to.

A statement like this is patronizing.

You have not offended my pride. You have offended my sense of decency and respectful discourse.

You are not being humble by making such a statement. Instead, you are being self-aggrandizing, trying to claim that I am prideful while you are humble.

Truly amazing!

Please remember to take the beam out of your own eye. Then you can clearly see the speck in someone else’s. PS. Please reread your own posts to me.

In love and humour,
your heretic,
arcadia

 

[jack_hawkins]

That’s a good question. This thread has been all over the place. Let me give you some background on Jack Hawkins, the OP. This is how he opened the thread:

Jack: “Thinking about things and listening to what Catholics have to say here, I have come to the conclusion that the only Christianity that makes any sense to me is non-denominational Christianity. Are there many non-denominational Christians here?”

Keep in mind Jack says he is an English doctor, he is a former Pentecostal, his wife is a Catholic, and he is preparing to convert to Catholicism through RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults), (perhaps he was brought into the Church last night at Easter Vigil.)

Jack has been a very busy poster on this forum until recently. He **almost always argues and disagrees with the Catholics **here who support Catholic Church teaching, especially regarding its moral teachings (artificial birth control, abortion, and especially in vitro fertilization).

So if you are confused by the OP, join the club. It’s all very perplexing.

Yes and why did I stop posting?
What a wonderful analysis, you have really laid bare my soul
I would like to correct you on a few points but that would be counterproductive, since you seem to be so convinced that you have me down to a T
I especially like this nice touch “*Keep in mind Jack says *” - neatly suggests some doubt without actually calling me a liar
ho hum

 

[guanophore]

guanophore, where does that assertion get us?
I can say absolutely truthfully that this forum did not help me in any way spiritually -in fact it had the opposite effect
what happened to the spiritual works of mercy of “counselling the doubtful” and “being patient with those in error”?
my Curate was quite scathing about some of the things said here and advised not to log on anymore - I am only doing so to help others who may feel discouraged like I was what insulting comments did I make?
please quote one
and even I did - what about the above spiritual works of mercy? are they conveniently ignored?

Your post made it sound like it was the content of what you brought that created problems. I don’t think that is the case. I think the problems resulted from the attitude in which they were brought. I am sorry that the forum did not help you spiritually. I have learned very much here, including from yourself! It was your objections to the teaching of the Church that spurred me to study them more in detail, and in trying to respond to your accusations, I learned how to think better. So, I am grateful.

I will PM you some of your comments that I found bristly, so that we will not get further off topic.

Meanwhile, I will affirm that it is more productive for all of us to have discussion charitably, and make corrections graciously to each other.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Your post made it sound like it was the content of what you brought that created problems. I don’t think that is the case. I think the problems resulted from the attitude in which they were brought. I am sorry that the forum did not help you spiritually. I have learned very much here, including from yourself! It was your objections to the teaching of the Church that spurred me to study them more in detail, and in trying to respond to your accusations, I learned how to think better. So, I am grateful.

I will PM you some of your comments that I found bristly, so that we will not get further off topic.

Meanwhile, I will affirm that it is more productive for all of us to have discussion charitably, and make corrections graciously to each other.

Well don’t change on account of me - I have no intention of posting here after tomorrow at the latest. I regret coming back today, which was against my better judgment. If the forum had merely not helped me spiritually that would be one thing, but it had a very pronounced negative effect. I wonder how many other people have found this - at least one other that I (and you) know of.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Well don’t change on account of me - I have no intention of posting here after tomorrow at the latest. I regret coming back today, which was against my better judgment. If the forum had merely not helped me spiritually that would be one thing, but it had a very pronounced negative effect. I wonder how many other people have found this - at least one other that I (and you) know of.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Well don’t change on account of me - I have no intention of posting here after tomorrow at the latest. I regret coming back today, which was against my better judgment. If the forum had merely not helped me spiritually that would be one thing, but it had a very pronounced negative effect. I wonder how many other people have found this - at least one other that I (and you) know of.

I am probabaly the other person you are referring to - Carol Coombe the nerfherder, dragged out of Star Wars, and flung by this great debate into the outer abyss. I too woke this morning, and prayed that I would be given the discipline not to write further on this Forum. But here I am. Why?

Because I have been amazed at what I have learned and what I have not learned about religion, in my attempt to convert to Catholicism; at the general ignorance of religious and faith issues among many posters on both sides; at the unwillingness to listen, look and learn from others; at the tendency towards up-front bigotry which cannot be tolerated or sustained; at the barebones mental landscapes of many posters whose engagement with real life has been extraordinarily limited; at the unwillingness of many to look at the true essence of Christianity rather than at the rules and codes of religous organisations; about the general lack of humanity and inability to engage with the life of others, particularly the wretched of the earth who constitute 98 per cent of the world’s population, and who were the principal focus of Christ’s ministry to us. I felt ashamed.

Perhaps I expected too much. I am an academic, and I assumed that we would have something in the mode of a graduate seminar: that there would be those who know, and those who are learning, and that a vigorous debate of integrity would ensue. That did not happen, although one kept hoping it would. How much can one learn from those who cite opinions rather than ideas, or guesses rather than facts, or senses rather than insights?

What was particularly intolerable was the constant bickering, infighting and lack of civility which characterised too many debates - such as the one between arcadia and ephiasaph99 above, which I found revolting. There are senior members who are senior members by virtue of the fact that they have posted more than others. I read that to mean that they also have responsibility to guide, mentor and guard. Instead I found that they were some of the most vicious of opponents, and had no compunction about turning a poster into a target.

This brings me to another point: find out how many threads are ultimately dealing with transubstantiation and the Eucharist, the One True Church, and/or the heterodox Reformers. Again and again and again threads and posters wandered back to the same issues. This is boring. It is also irrelevant if we are really talking about being Christians - Roman Catholics or any other. This is a Catholic forum - that was made clear many times. But it would perhaps not be of any merit if learners, questers, the curious, the baiters and the challengers were not into the thick of it, or at least lurking about the edges. It gives a focus to the debate, and something to bite into. But what needs to be bitten into is the example Christ set for our Christian lives, his human and divine nature, his mission, his commandments, his love. These are the critical issues for any Christian, and should be focal points for this Forum. At present, they are pretty well absent, in substance and in deed.

I am not pointing fingers at any group of people, any faith, any organisation. I am saying straight what I have observed during my four weeks of trauma and fascination. I hope to wake up tomorrow and find the nightmare is over.

I thank those who have given me love and support throughout: you know who you are.

Blessings

Jabulani!
(I chose this motto which means ‘Let us rejoice and be glad’ in the South African Xhosa language, Mandela’s language. It seemed appropriate at the time.)

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Well don’t change on account of me - I have no intention of posting here after tomorrow at the latest. I regret coming back today, which was against my better judgment. If the forum had merely not helped me spiritually that would be one thing, but it had a very pronounced negative effect. I wonder how many other people have found this - at least one other that I (and you) know of.

Jack,

Whatever do you mean?

Iowa Mike

 

[jack_hawkins]

Jack,
Whatever do you mean?
Iowa Mike

Is that a purely rhetorical (or facetious) question Iowa Mike? Or do you genuinely want to know?

 

[Iowa_Mike]

There is nothing lurking behind the bush I really want to know.

Iowa Mike

 

[Iowa_Mike]

There is nothing lurking behind the bush, I really want to know.

Iowa Mike

 

[contramundum7]

Well I guess you are really saying that in all all honesty you are ignorant. A catholic poster named Contradundrum7 wrote… "One more thing: The Catholic Church teaches that all baptized Christians (or is it just Catholic ones??? Sorry, i’m not sure… but someone out there is…), but anyway, it teaches we are all “Priest, Prophet and King”.( pg 17 of this thread)

What about Rev 1:5-6 ? “To him who loved us and washed away our sins in his own blood and has made us kings and priest to His God and Father…” There are other scriptures too that clearly state the same thing ( I have read them, but I have to find them)

…So sorry about that brother, but you are more than what your limiting beliefs are. But that is good news isn’t it?

Let me ask you what does it mean for us to be called a servant king? How about a priest? How about a prophet? Overcomer?

People does anyone else agree with me that we are more than what we are manifesting to the world? ( I know some of you think of me as a brother) Don’t Christians and Catholic Christians equally look a lot like the world? Similar houses, cars, jobs, worries, divorce rates, etc? I am talking about me too.

I am beginning to understand that I have wandered all over the map with my posts. Please forgive me. It was my first forum. Next time I will stay on topic.

with respect and love,

your friend arcadia

Yes, we do look like the worldly ones… hard to tell the difference sometimes…
But Jesus calls us to “hate” our lives in this world (even our brothers, sisters, children, etc, even our very selves…). And yes, i believe Jesus meant 2 use the word “hate”… meaning: Hate whatever interferes w/ you and Jesus and salvation… And everything and eveyrone can / does interfere… Doing the right thing doesn’t always set too well with others… (“Do not be unequally yoked”)…

 

[jmcrae]

Not a very charitable thought
what happened to “being patient with those in error” for example? or “counselling the doubtful”? does CAF not do that?

It’s an Internet Forum - people have to be brief, quick, and to the point. People are trying their best to be charitable, but it’s difficult to convey a “kind” tone of voice while correcting errors in 150 words or less.

Also, with the whole world reading along, you don’t want to let error stand without being immediately stomped out, so that nobody reading along can ever get the impression that it can be permitted to believe such things. This is not intended as an attack on the person; it’s an attack on the error itself.

People who want to do their learning in this kind of environment need to develop a thick skin, and they need be prepared to seek understanding rather than follow their inclination to be offended by correction. It is a very rare gift to be able to correct someone’s error while making them feel good about it - I know I don’t have that gift, for sure. But it’s better for someone to be offended by me than to go to the Judgement Day with their errors having gone unchallenged for their whole life, and never even having the opportunity to repent and turn to the right way.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Because I have been amazed at what I have learned and what I have not learned about religion, in my attempt to convert to Catholicism; at the general ignorance of religious and faith issues among many posters on both sides; at the unwillingness to listen, look and learn from others; at the tendency towards up-front bigotry which cannot be tolerated or sustained; at the barebones mental landscapes of many posters whose engagement with real life has been extraordinarily limited; at the unwillingness of many to look at the true essence of Christianity rather than at the rules and codes of religous organisations; about the general lack of humanity and inability to engage with the life of others, particularly the wretched of the earth who constitute 98 per cent of the world’s population, and who were the principal focus of Christ’s ministry to us. I felt ashamed.

Perhaps I expected too much. I am an academic, and I assumed that we would have something in the mode of a graduate seminar: that there would be those who know, and those who are learning, and that a vigorous debate of integrity would ensue. That did not happen, although one kept hoping it would. How much can one learn from those who cite opinions rather than ideas, or guesses rather than facts, or senses rather than insights?

What was particularly intolerable was the constant bickering, infighting and lack of civility which characterised too many debates - such as the one between arcadia and ephiasaph99 above, which I found revolting. There are senior members who are senior members by virtue of the fact that they have posted more than others. I read that to mean that they also have responsibility to guide, mentor and guard. Instead I found that they were some of the most vicious of opponents, and had no compunction about turning a poster into a target.

This brings me to another point: find out how many threads are ultimately dealing with transubstantiation and the Eucharist, the One True Church, and/or the heterodox Reformers. Again and again and again threads and posters wandered back to the same issues. This is boring. It is also irrelevant if we are really talking about being Christians - Roman Catholics or any other. This is a Catholic forum - that was made clear many times. But it would perhaps not be of any merit if learners, questers, the curious, the baiters and the challengers were not into the thick of it, or at least lurking about the edges. It gives a focus to the debate, and something to bite into. But what needs to be bitten into is the example Christ set for our Christian lives, his human and divine nature, his mission, his commandments, his love. These are the critical issues for any Christian, and should be focal points for this Forum. At present, they are pretty well absent, in substance and in deed.

I am not pointing fingers at any group of people, any faith, any organisation. I am saying straight what I have observed during my four weeks of trauma and fascination. I hope to wake up tomorrow and find the nightmare is over.

Carol,

I continue to wish you well. Is it possible that, as an academic, you are disappointed that you have been unable to sway or change Catholic beliefs using your considerable academic skills?

In discussions about transubstantiation, the One True Church etc. you complain that you are bored because the same arguments come up again and again. Please realize that your arguments against these Catholic tenants are nothing new and nothing most Catholics haven’t experienced many, many times before? You consider them old and tired arguments, I consider them ‘His Truth’.

at the unwillingness of many to look at the true essence of Christianity rather than at the rules and codes of religous organisations

The essense of Christianity according to who? You apparently want a church that has no doctrines because you continuously complain about Catholic doctrines, traditions and teachings. I believe the essense of Christianity is found in the Catholic Church, its doctrines, traditions and teachings. That’s the big difference between your views and mine.

What was particularly intolerable was the constant bickering, infighting and lack of civility which characterised too many debates - such as the one between arcadia and ephiasaph99 above, which I found revolting. There are senior members who are senior members by virtue of the fact that they have posted more than others.

Carol, have you considered your own style? Perhaps you are reaping what you are sewing.

One more thing, have you ever considered, even for a minute, that your arguments are just plain wrong?

Iowa Mike

 

[arcadia]

Because I have been amazed at what I have learned and what I have not learned about religion, in my attempt to convert to Catholicism; at the general ignorance of religious and faith issues among many posters on both sides; at the unwillingness to listen, look and learn from others; at the tendency towards up-front bigotry which cannot be tolerated or sustained; at the barebones mental landscapes of many posters whose engagement with real life has been extraordinarily limited; at the unwillingness of many to look at the true essence of Christianity rather than at the rules and codes of religous organisations; about the general lack of humanity and inability to engage with the life of others, particularly the wretched of the earth who constitute 98 per cent of the world’s population, and who were the principal focus of Christ’s ministry to us. I felt ashamed.

What was particularly intolerable was the constant bickering, infighting and lack of civility which characterised too many debates - such as the one between arcadia and ephiasaph99 above, which I found revolting.

This brings me to another point: find out how many threads are ultimately dealing with transubstantiation and the Eucharist, the One True Church, and/or the heterodox Reformers. Again and again and again threads and posters wandered back to the same issues. This is boring. It is also irrelevant if we are really talking about being Christians - Roman Catholics or any other. This is a Catholic forum - that was made clear many times. But it would perhaps not be of any merit if learners, questers, the curious, the baiters and the challengers were not into the thick of it, or at least lurking about the edges. It gives a focus to the debate, and something to bite into. But what needs to be bitten into is the example Christ set for our Christian lives, his human and divine nature, his mission, his commandments, his love. These are the critical issues for any Christian, and should be focal points for this Forum. At present, they are pretty well absent, in substance and in deed.

I thank those who have given me love and support throughout: you know who you are.

Blessings

Jabulani!

]

Please forgive me all of you especially ephiasaph99. I should not have called you ignorant. I also said “sorry your pride was offended”. What I originally meant to say was say was simply “sorry I offended you” but ended up throwing out the “Pride” word in a bit of mockery and fun but now I realize that it was in very poor taste. I sincerely apologize to you and the entire forum.

arcadia

 

[jack_hawkins]

normally PMs should be kept private. however I find this one so unbelievably uncharitable that I think before I leave this forum I should make it public. I am flabbergasted that someone on a Christian forum could say such things personally, but I will let others decide for themselves

You say you are planning to become a Catholic but you have come to the conclusion that the only Christianity that makes sense is non-denominational Christianity?

I certainly hope you did not enter the CC this Easter. I would be interested in what you told your Curate about us horrible, wretched Catholics on this forum. Did you remember to tell him some of the things you posted here like the fact that you feel only non-denominational Christianity makes sense? Like Peter wasn’t the first Pope? Like you know the Bible better than Catholic priests do? Like you don’t have to follow Catholic moral teachings because they are dictated by old celibate men?

And as far as your being a doctor, I wondered the same thing as that other poster-- how do you have so much free time to spend on the internet.

If you truly are traumatized by your experience on this forum, I think you should look at yourself and the way you behaved. It’s not the Catholic posters here who you have a problem with; it’s the teachings of the CC and the CC itself. You consistently argued with us against Church teaching. Believe me, we Catholics here are not making this stuff up–this is the official teaching of the Pope and the CC. How many different versions of Catholicism do you think there are?

And for someone who knows so little about the CC, the last thing you should be doing is coming here to argue with Catholics. I agree with your Curate–you should stay away from this forum (since you only want to argue with people). If you really want to learn what the Church teaches, get off this forum and start reading the Catechism. Once you read that, start reading some papal encyclicals. Since you are unemployed, you have plenty of time to do this.

Otherwise, maybe you should become a non-denominational Christian and get on one of their forums. See how that goes.

Sorry if I seem mean to you, but it amazes me how blind you are to your own uncharitable behavior on this forum. Now you are the Jack, the innocent victim. Please–get a grip on reality

so I’m a liar who needs to get a grip on reality apparently, who definitely shouldn’t have joined the Catholic Church
nice:thumbsup:

 

[Janet_S]

normally PMs should be kept private. however I find this one so unbelievably uncharitable that I think before I leave this forum I should make it public. I am flabbergasted that someone on a Christian forum could say such things personally, but I will let others decide for themselves

so I’m a liar who needs to get a grip on reality apparently, who definitely shouldn’t have joined the Catholic Church
nice:thumbsup:

That was my PM to Jack, in case anyone wondered.

My response was to this question he asked me: “do you seriously believe that I’m lying about these biographical details? if so, on what basis?”

 

[Carol_Coombe]

That’s a good question. This thread has been all over the place. Let me give you some background on Jack Hawkins, the OP. This is how he opened the thread:

Jack: “Thinking about things and listening to what Catholics have to say here, I have come to the conclusion that the only Christianity that makes any sense to me is non-denominational Christianity. Are there many non-denominational Christians here?”

Keep in mind Jack says he is an English doctor, he is a former Pentecostal, his wife is a Catholic, and he is preparing to convert to Catholicism through RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults), (perhaps he was brought into the Church last night at Easter Vigil.)

Jack has been a very busy poster on this forum until recently. He **almost always argues and disagrees with the Catholics **here who support Catholic Church teaching, especially regarding its moral teachings (artificial birth control, abortion, and especially in vitro fertilization).

So if you are confused by the OP, join the club. It’s all very perplexing.

I swore I would not post again. But your response to jackhawkins is outrageous. You should be ashamed to call yourself a Christian. This post is vicious, a personal attack on a quester, sarcastic, defensive in the extreme yet full of prideful arrogance, and lacks any perception of or empathy with our common humanity.

You - and those like you - are the reason this Forum does not work for many. Ignorance, insult, egregious hurt to fellow Christians: these are the work of someone who is not a Christian at heart. You may take Eucharist, you may do your Hail Marys, you may believe the Church of Rome is the One True Church - and that is fine. But you do not have the first clue about what it means to be a true Christian. Do you really think that Christ would have spoken like this? Do you really think that you follow His example in this posting? Do you really think that you present Christ to others? Do you really think that you have Christ-inspired relations with others who are different from you? Do you really think that you can make the world a better place for even one person other than yourselv? Do you really think that you live in Christ, and Christ lives in you? Do you really think that you are one with the Beloved?

Yes, you should be ashamed. I shall not pray for you: words fail me. But I would expect that you would raise this issue at your next confession and pray for a less vicious nature daily.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Carol,

I continue to wish you well. You have never wished me well, from the start.

Is it possible that, as an academic, you are disappointed that you have been unable to sway or change Catholic beliefs using your considerable academic skills? I have no intention, nor did I ever have one, to change or sway the belief system manifested by the Church of Rome.

In discussions about transubstantiation you complain you are bored. I said also that I would have preferred to move on to the substance of this Forum which *should *be the nature and mission of Christ our Lord. Most RCC members however prefer to engage with the often arcane institution of their Church, navel-gazing. There is so little of substance about Christianity itself.

Realize your arguments against Catholic tenants are nothing new …I consider them ‘His Truth’. The word is **tenets **not tenants (renters of a house or flat) or tenents (?). I have **not **made arguments against Catholic belief systems, but queried them, and expected intelligent and helpful answers. What you call **His Truth **is of Christ - see second posting to you.

You apparently want a church that has no doctrines… I believe the essense of Christianity is found in the Catholic Church, its doctrines, traditions and teachings.

You inevitably put words into my mouth for your own purposes. I have not complained about RCC teachings, only the fact that here they leave out the core: caritas and Christ. **It does not matter what church, as long as you worship Christ. **That is apparently perhaps beyond you: anyone can be with Christ in any setting, as I have seen in the 54 countries I have worked in. And yes, there are different kinds of Catholicism.

Carol, have you considered your own style? Perhaps you are reaping what you are sewing. Are you saying that my style of engagement is in any way parallel to yours? Shame.

Have you ever considered that your arguments are just wrong? Of course - you need not even ask that question. Do you not think, by opening my mind to posters who are strangers - on issues like what I believe about God and the origin of the universe, the definition of divine, God’s role in the material and in the social world, the rise of values and belief systems and ultimately - from early creation myths - the evolution of religions, the nature of heaven and hell, the new understanding we need to have as a result of the Hubble photographs of the universe, our need to engage with the wretched of the earth with compassion, humility and courage - that I was asking not for support, but for intelligent discussion, debate. Did I get it on any of these issues? Not a one. Not a one. Oh, except for someone who gave me a definition of ‘divine’ out of a dictionary. Oh Lord how long?

So now I suggest that you go and find another target for your venom and ignorance.

Iowa Mike

See my reply to JanetS above. The same applies to you and I have set it out for you on another thread.

 

[jack_hawkins]

That was my PM to Jack, in case anyone wondered.

My response was to this question he asked me: “do you seriously believe that I’m lying about these biographical details? if so, on what basis?”

You don’t have any further comment to make at all? No mitigation or explanation?
To clarify, when I spoke to Fr James I discussed with him my concerns about for example the use of condoms for preventing HIV, and other biomedical matters, but nothing about the posters here at all which is of no importance in the grand scheme of things. I have always been up front with him and he had no problem with me being received into the church.
I would never let sinners like myself stop me joining the Church.