Non-denominational Christians

[Janet_S]

Because I have been amazed at what I have learned and what I have not learned about religion, in my attempt to convert to Catholicism; at the general ignorance of religious and faith issues among many posters on both sides; at the unwillingness to listen, look and learn from others; at the tendency towards up-front bigotry which cannot be tolerated or sustained; at the barebones mental landscapes of many posters whose engagement with real life has been extraordinarily limited; at the unwillingness of many to look at the true essence of Christianity rather than at the rules and codes of religous organisations; about the general lack of humanity and inability to engage with the life of others, particularly the wretched of the earth who constitute 98 per cent of the world’s population, and who were the principal focus of Christ’s ministry to us. I felt ashamed.

Perhaps I expected too much. I am an academic, and I assumed that we would have something in the mode of a graduate seminar: that there would be those who know, and those who are learning, and that a vigorous debate of integrity would ensue. That did not happen, although one kept hoping it would. How much can one learn from those who cite opinions rather than ideas, or guesses rather than facts, or senses rather than insights?

What was particularly intolerable was the constant bickering, infighting and lack of civility which characterised too many debates - such as the one between arcadia and ephiasaph99 above, which I found revolting. There are senior members who are senior members by virtue of the fact that they have posted more than others. I read that to mean that they also have responsibility to guide, mentor and guard. Instead I found that they were some of the most vicious of opponents, and had no compunction about turning a poster into a target.

This brings me to another point: find out how many threads are ultimately dealing with transubstantiation and the Eucharist, the One True Church, and/or the heterodox Reformers. Again and again and again threads and posters wandered back to the same issues. This is boring. It is also irrelevant if we are really talking about being Christians - Roman Catholics or any other. This is a Catholic forum - that was made clear many times. But it would perhaps not be of any merit if learners, questers, the curious, the baiters and the challengers were not into the thick of it, or at least lurking about the edges. It gives a focus to the debate, and something to bite into. But what needs to be bitten into is the example Christ set for our Christian lives, his human and divine nature, his mission, his commandments, his love. These are the critical issues for any Christian, and should be focal points for this Forum. At present, they are pretty well absent, in substance and in deed.

I am not pointing fingers at any group of people, any faith, any organisation. I am saying straight what I have observed during my four weeks of trauma and fascination. I hope to wake up tomorrow and find the nightmare is over.

I thank those who have given me love and support throughout: you know who you are.

You may not see it, but Catholic doctrine is important–Catholics aren’t just social workers. I am sure you are aware of Mother Teresa. She gave her life to the poor, but she never compromised the Truth of Catholicism. She didn’t resort to handing out condoms to the poor in a false gesture of love. She knew what the heart of her mission was–Jesus, His Church, and the Eucharist. Here is an excerpt from her Nobel Peace Prize Speech:
nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/1979/teresa-lecture.html

I believe that we are not real social workers. We may be doing social work in the eyes of the people, but we are really contemplatives in the heart of the world. For we are touching the Body of Christ 24 hours. We have 24 hours in this presence, and so you and I. You too try to bring that presence of God in your family, for the family that prays together stays together. And I think that we in our family don’t need bombs and guns, to destroy to bring peace - just get together, love one another, bring that peace, that joy, that strength of presence of each other in the home. And we will be able to overcome all the evil that is in the world.

True love is always based on Truth. Love without Truth is no love at all. Catholics really do believe that the Church speaks with the voice of Christ in the world today. We can’t dismiss any of the Church’s teachings just because we find them difficult to understand or hard to follow. We believe that the CC’s teaching on artificial birth control (including condom use) is Christ’s teaching. We wouldn’t say to the CC any more than we would say to Christ “yes I hear what you say, but I don’t agree with you.”

 

[Janet_S]

I swore I would not post again. But your response to jackhawkins is outrageous. You should be ashamed to call yourself a Christian. This post is vicious, a personal attack on a quester, sarcastic, defensive in the extreme yet full of prideful arrogance, and lacks any perception of or empathy with our common humanity.

You - and those like you - are the reason this Forum does not work for many. Ignorance, insult, egregious hurt to fellow Christians: these are the work of someone who is not a Christian at heart. You may take Eucharist, you may do your Hail Marys, you may believe the Church of Rome is the One True Church - and that is fine. But you do not have the first clue about what it means to be a true Christian. Do you really think that Christ would have spoken like this? Do you really think that you follow His example in this posting? Do you really think that you present Christ to others? Do you really think that you have Christ-inspired relations with others who are different from you? Do you really think that you can make the world a better place for even one person other than yourselv? Do you really think that you live in Christ, and Christ lives in you? Do you really think that you are one with the Beloved?

Yes, you should be ashamed. I shall not pray for you: words fail me. But I would expect that you would raise this issue at your next confession and pray for a less vicious nature daily.

Sorry, I just don’t see it. I think your response to me is a little over the top. Jack said he wanted to learn what the Church teaches. We Catholics told him. You and he don’t seem to want to know or to follow what the Church teaches. But these aren’t things we Catholics are making up.

I’m not ashamed, and my response comes nothing close to “viscious.”

Sorry someone like you with an “academic background” had to suffer such fools like us. You might want to look at your own charity. You seem like a tyrant to me when people don’t agree with you.

 

[Janet_S]

You don’t have any further comment to make at all? No mitigation or explanation?
To clarify, when I spoke to Fr James I discussed with him my concerns about for example the use of condoms for preventing HIV, and other biomedical matters, but nothing about the posters here at all which is of no importance in the grand scheme of things. I have always been up front with him and he had no problem with me being received into the church.
I would never let sinners like myself stop me joining the Church.

I don’t object to your being a sinner. Everyone in the CC is a sinner. I just have a hard time understanding why you would want to joint a Church that you don’t trust to teach correctly on faith and morals. And it doesn’t seem to me you have any intention of exploring the reasons for the Church’s teaching. Your mind is made up. Are you planning to protest against the Church forever? Really, do you think we Catholics here are just making up things?

 

[guanophore]

I swore I would not post again. But your response to jackhawkins is outrageous. You should be ashamed to call yourself a Christian. This post is vicious, a personal attack on a quester, sarcastic, defensive in the extreme yet full of prideful arrogance, and lacks any perception of or empathy with our common humanity.

You - and those like you - are the reason this Forum does not work for many. Ignorance, insult, egregious hurt to fellow Christians: these are the work of someone who is not a Christian at heart. You may take Eucharist, you may do your Hail Marys, you may believe the Church of Rome is the One True Church - and that is fine. But you do not have the first clue about what it means to be a true Christian. Do you really think that Christ would have spoken like this? Do you really think that you follow His example in this posting? Do you really think that you present Christ to others? Do you really think that you have Christ-inspired relations with others who are different from you? Do you really think that you can make the world a better place for even one person other than yourselv? Do you really think that you live in Christ, and Christ lives in you? Do you really think that you are one with the Beloved?

Yes, you should be ashamed. I shall not pray for you: words fail me. But I would expect that you would raise this issue at your next confession and pray for a less vicious nature daily.

This post comes across sounding very judgemental, hurt, and angry. All that were stated in the post by Janet S are basic facts that Jack told us about himself. I don’t see anything sarcastic in it at all, nor prideful arrogance. It is very puzzling that he would be interested in joining a church with which he is so vehemently opposed to the teachings thereof. there is no viciousness in that post. I would also say that it is inappropriate for one person to tell another what they should bring up in confession, unless somoene asks for advice about an examination of conscience. In general, we are much more effective in taking our own inventory than we are taking that of others. This is the task to which Christ calls each of us, “examine yourselves”. It is significant that this forum has brought such strong feelings to the forefront for you, Carol, and I think that confronting these are an essential step to your spiritual growth, regardless of which ecclesiastical community you eventually find yourself planted. You will remain in my prayers toward that end.

Peace,

your friend guan

 

[jack_hawkins]

I don’t object to your being a sinner. Everyone in the CC is a sinner. I just have a hard time understanding why you would want to joint a Church that you don’t trust to teach correctly on faith and morals. And it doesn’t seem to me you have any intention of exploring the reasons for the Church’s teaching. Your mind is made up. Are you planning to protest against the Church forever? Really, do you think we Catholics here are just making up things?

Well since you have misunderstood my position, you are attacking a straw man. Trust me, you do not know where I am at all.

 

[homewardbound]

Such un-Christian behavior is so depressing. No wonder non-Catholics come here and get even more confused! The facts of the faith may be presented, but even if the facts are correct I wouldn’t trust a denomination that spawns such hatred towards those who aren’t perfect in their faith(as if anyone is!) I have NEVER seen such awful behavior from so-called Christians before. Shame shame! How dare we take it on ourselves to lead others to what we think is right! How dare we assume our way of thinking and doing things is the only way(meaning an individual does things one way, and thinks one way, and therefore thinks everyone else should do the same or they are in error) How disgusting that someone would be so cruel to someone who is merely trying to understand a faith they want to be a part of. Thank God I was not treated in this manner when I first started looking into the Catholic Church. Thank God not all Catholics are so uncharitable. I pray the non-Catholics who read this realize that. I’m just in shock at this thread.

 

[guanophore]

Carol, I continue to wish you well. I

You have never wished me well, from the start. I have no intention, nor did I ever have one, to change or sway the belief system manifested by the Church of Rome.

You suggested that the church needed modernization, recognition and acceptance of the reformation more graciously, and adapt itself to the social gospel more appropriately. For that reason, it does seem that you wanted the Church to “evolve”. You also vigorously opposed the Church’s notion that it is the sole and authoritative deposit of faith. You frequently championed the the insightes of the reformers, and commended their work to the Catholic Church. Your opinions come across sounding like you believe the Roman Church needs to change, to evolve, to reform.

I said also that I would have preferred to move on to the substance of this Forum which should be the nature and mission of Christ our Lord. There is so little of substance about Christianity itself.

This word “should” that appears in your posts is a red flag for judgemental thinking. It indicates that you are putting your expectations upon others of what you think is right and proper. You come across sounding as if others ought to conform to your standards. When you tell another poster “you should be ashamed of yourself” you are applying your standards of proper behavior, as well as finding them deficient in them.

I have not made arguments against Catholic belief systems, but queried them, and expected intelligent and helpful answers.

I am confused by what you say here. Do you think you are not arguing against Catholic belief systems, or is that a typo? Your “queries” often come across as bold assertions, flat out refusals, and when you are angry, flaming. I have no problem with arguement, myself. I have also become accustomed to your somewhat hostile method of polemic. However, you cannot expect to have an intelligent and helpful response by using that method. Iowa Mike is right on this point, you are reaping what you are sowing.

You inevitably put words into my mouth for your own purposes. I have not complained about RCC teachings, only the fact that here they leave out the core: caritas and Christ. It does not matter what church, as long as you worship Christ. That is apparently perhaps beyond you: anyone can be with Christ in any setting, as I have seen in the 54 countries I have worked in. And yes, there are different kinds of Catholicism.

On the contrary, I think you have plenty of complaints about the RCC teachings. I think you brought them to the right place! In this passage above there is an example of one of those strong polemics that you use: “it does not matter what church”. To those of us who are Catholic after a long journey, it does matter very much. If you are speaking for yourself, fine, but the way this is worded, it comes across as though you expect the statement to apply to all. There is also a condescending tone added “that is apparently beyond you”. This is an example of what Iowa Mike is saying that you seem to become hostile when others don’t agree with you. I don’t know what Iowa Mike’s background is, but it seems that he has chosen to be with Christ in the Catholic Church, a choice that I think is worthy of honor, at least as much as your choice to be with Christ in any of 54 countries.

Are you saying that my style of engagement is in any way parallel to yours? Shame.

While you are busy giving shame out liberally, you are missing the feedback that is being offered.

… on issues like what I believe about God and the origin of the universe,… our need to engage with the wretched of the earth with compassion, humility and courage - that I was asking not for support, but for intelligent discussion, debate. Did I get it on any of these issues? Not a one. Not a one. Oh, except for someone who gave me a definition of ‘divine’ out of a dictionary. Oh Lord how long?

I think you very much do need support, Carol, and you are cutting yourself off from it with your hostility, defensiveness, and judgemental attitudes. I think, with the type of interactional style you have demonstrated here, you will be waiting a long time te have intelligent discussion and debate. Ideas are great to bat back and forth, but if you cannot interact well socially with people of different attitudes, beliefs, and values, then the debate will not be life giving.

Your friend,

guan

ps, I apologize if this is off topic. In reading it, I thought it did apply to discussion between persons of various denominations.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

I swore I would not post again. But your response to Jack Hawkins is outrageous.

And then we get more of the same:

---

1. Janet S PM to Jack Hawkins

**

I hope you did not enter the CC this Easter

. I would be interested in what you told your Curate about us horrible, wretched Catholics. *

And as far as your being a doctor, I wondered the same thing as that other poster-- how do you have so much free time to spend on the internet. !!! Perhaps he has terminal cancer: do you have any idea?]

If you truly are traumatized by your experience on this forum, I think you should look at yourself and the way you behaved. It’s not the Catholic posters here who you have a problem with; it’s the teachings of the CC and the CC itself. You consistently argued with us against Church teaching. Believe me, we Catholics here are not making this stuff up,–this is the official teaching of the Pope and the CC. How many different versions of Catholicism do you think there are? [Many, did you but know it.]

And for someone who knows so little about the CC, the last thing you should be doing is coming here to argue with Catholics. I agree with your Curate–you should stay away from this forum (since you only want to argue with people). If you really want to learn what the Church teaches, get off this forum and start reading the Catechism. !!!] It amazes me how blind you are to your own uncharitable behavior on this forum. Now you are the Jack, the innocent victim. Please–get a grip on reality

1. From Janet S
   Response to JH question: do you seriously believe that I’m lying about these biographical details? if so, on what basis?

You have no business nosing around in people’s private lives in the first place, or commenting on them in the second. To suggest someone lies is insufferable. What do we know about you? Why should we bother? And you have given no basis for assuming JH is lying about his biography.

I would say the same thing to you as I have written to Iowa Mike: you do not have the first clue about what it means to be a true Christian. Do you really think that you live in Christ, and Christ lives in you? Do you really think that you are one with the Beloved?

I suggest that you remember this when next you go to confession - if you do - and that you discuss with your spiritual director - if you have one - how to associate your religion, your beliefs and your relationships with other people. You bring shame to Christ and his teachings. You give the Church of Rome a bad name.

We all must strive to remember that the vast majority of Catholics are not like you and Iowa Mike, but are decent, loving, Christian people, just like those who hang out in other Christian denominations, in other faiths, or are non-denominational - which several senior clerics have recently suggested is the new wave.

I have indulged in a tongue lashing because it is time to say that this kind of behaviour is intolerable for all of us who are trying. You must be ashamed of yourself. We are ashamed for you and your need, which is apparent.

If you insist this is a Catholic Forum, then it is better confined to members, so you can mill around amongst yourselves to reassure yourselves that you are indeed correct because divinely inspired.

That may help you, but I honestly say that it does not help Christianity, and it does not help the world. Surely we can engage with each other as Christians, in the best understanding of Christ’s example? If we cannot at least do that, we might as well stop here.

How far we are away from the beautiful words of the Bible, which are for all of us: For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[MrS]

You may not see it, but Catholic doctrine is important–Catholics aren’t just social workers. I

Amen to that.

The Charity and the Social Work should be the fruits of the Eucharist in the Mass… not the other way around.

No priests, no Eucharist… No Eucharist, no Church.

.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

I swore I would not post again. But your response to jackhawkins is outrageous. You should be ashamed to call yourself a Christian. This post is vicious, a personal attack on a quester, sarcastic, defensive in the extreme yet full of prideful arrogance, and lacks any perception of or empathy with our common humanity.

You - and those like you - are the reason this Forum does not work for many. Ignorance, insult, egregious hurt to fellow Christians: these are the work of someone who is not a Christian at heart. You may take Eucharist, you may do your Hail Marys, you may believe the Church of Rome is the One True Church - and that is fine. But you do not have the first clue about what it means to be a true Christian. Do you really think that Christ would have spoken like this? Do you really think that you follow His example in this posting? Do you really think that you present Christ to others? Do you really think that you have Christ-inspired relations with others who are different from you? Do you really think that you can make the world a better place for even one person other than yourselv? Do you really think that you live in Christ, and Christ lives in you? Do you really think that you are one with the Beloved?

Yes, you should be ashamed. I shall not pray for you: words fail me. But I would expect that you would raise this issue at your next confession and pray for a less vicious nature daily.

Carol,

Carol,

Hey, thanks for the spelling lesson!

They say when a person loses their temper their real feelings just ‘pop’ out. I think we are now seeing your true colors. By the way, the color red denotes anger.

Sorry Carol but your rant here is both off target and out of place on any Christian discussion forum. It calls to mind that old adage about the ‘pot calling the kettle black’. Talk about a lack of Christian charity!

While you are shaking your judgmental finger at me and others on this forum, you might take some time to put your own house order. You have engaged in duplicitous behavior by using two screen names on this forum, have engaged in name calling, proselytizing and the use of crass and mocking language to make your points. You apparently are driven to repeatedly tell everyone that you are an 'academic, a historian, have international experience, are a writer, etc. etc. etc. This suggests that you are either terribly insecure or are narcissistic. I think the disdainful manner in which you communicate would indicate narcissism.

I’ve long questioned your motives for being on this forum. Your explicit opposition to almost all Catholic teachings and doctrine seem to contradict your stated ‘RICA’ claim. You seem to want to live in a ‘non-denominational’ world void of those pesky doctrines and rules so you can float around expounding on your version of Christianity unchallenged.

Where have I gone wrong?

By the way, I prayed for you this morning Carol and I hope you find what you’re looking for.

Iowa Mike

 

[Iowa_Mike]

And then we get more of the same:

---

You have no business nosing around in people’s private lives in the first place, or commenting on them in the second. To suggest someone lies is insufferable. What do we know about you? Why should we bother? And you have given no basis for assuming JH is lying about his biography.

I would say the same thing to you as I have written to Iowa Mike: you do not have the first clue about what it means to be a true Christian. Do you really think that you live in Christ, and Christ lives in you? Do you really think that you are one with the Beloved?

I suggest that you remember this when next you go to confession - if you do - and that you discuss with your spiritual director - if you have one - how to associate your religion, your beliefs and your relationships with other people. You bring shame to Christ and his teachings. You give the Church of Rome a bad name.

We all must strive to remember that the vast majority of Catholics are not like you and Iowa Mike, but are decent, loving, Christian people, just like those who hang out in other Christian denominations, in other faiths, or are non-denominational - which several senior clerics have recently suggested is the new wave.

I have indulged in a tongue lashing because it is time to say that this kind of behaviour is intolerable for all of us who are trying. You must be ashamed of yourself. We are ashamed for you and your need, which is apparent.

If you insist this is a Catholic Forum, then it is better confined to members, so you can mill around amongst yourselves to reassure yourselves that you are indeed correct because divinely inspired.

That may help you, but I honestly say that it does not help Christianity, and it does not help the world. Surely we can engage with each other as Christians, in the best understanding of Christ’s example? If we cannot at least do that, we might as well stop here.

How far we are away from the beautiful words of the Bible, which are for all of us: For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Carol,

Temper, temper.

Your non-Christian side is out in front at the moment.

The RCC has been around for 2000 years with the same old doctrines, teachings and traditions. You and your senior clerics may think non-denomination worship is the wave of the future but the dogma’s of the Catholic Church isn’t going to change to accomodate free spirits.

Iowa Mike

 

[guanophore]

And then we get more of the same:

***1. Janet S PM to Jack Hawkins; I hope you did not enter the CC this Easter. I would be interested in what you told your Curate about us horrible, wretched Catholics.

---

You have no business nosing around in people’s private lives in the first place, or commenting on them in the second. To suggest someone lies is insufferable. What do we know about you? Why should we bother? And you have given no basis for assuming JH is lying about his biography.

While I don’t support the practice of name-calling on the forum (or elsewhere for that matter) pointing out that someone is presenting as duplicitious or inconsistent, or misrepresenting can be very valuable feedback. Many times, an individual does not even realize that it seems this way. All that aside, Jack stated clearly on this forum that he did not “believe all the teachings of the church”, which is one of the questions asked of those being recieved during the inituation rites. If he stated that he did, when it truth he does not, what does that mean? Personally, I agree with you that whether he is received into the church is between himself, God, and his confirmation team. It is not for anyone on this forum to say he should or should not. However, I echo the hope that, if people do elect to join the Church, that they do not do so ingenuously.

I would say the same thing to you as I have written to Iowa Mike: you do not have the first clue about what it means to be a true Christian. Do you really think that you live in Christ, and Christ lives in you? Do you really think that you are one with the Beloved?

I suggest that you remember this when next you go to confession - if you do - and that you discuss with your spiritual director - if you have one - how to associate your religion, your beliefs and your relationships with other people. You bring shame to Christ and his teachings. You give the Church of Rome a bad name.

This is a lot of judgemental language. If you really feel this way, I think it would do more good to pray for the people that are offending you, rather than shaming them in a public place.

I have indulged in a tongue lashing because it is time to say that this kind of behaviour is intolerable for all of us who are trying. You must be ashamed of yourself. We are ashamed for you and your need, which is apparent.

I do not think that Christ taught shame anywhere, and passing it back and forth among ourselves does not glorify Him in any way. If other people’s behavior is intolerable, then it is time to look within, and develop tolerance. One cannot change other people, whether by violence (verbal or physical), shaming, or even tongue lashing. We only have control over our own selves.

If you insist this is a Catholic Forum, then it is better confined to members, so you can mill around amongst yourselves to reassure yourselves that you are indeed correct because divinely inspired.

Although you may feel that you have not had anything of value here, I disagree. I think this forum has brought you face to face with the attitudes, beliefs, and values that are hindering you from moving forward in your spiritual path.

That may help you, but I honestly say that it does not help Christianity, and it does not help the world. Surely we can engage with each other as Christians, in the best understanding of Christ’s example? If we cannot at least do that, we might as well stop here.

Judging from your statements in this post, you consider Christ to be exemplifying blame, shame, indignance, and intolerance! You are right. We might as well stop here!

Carol_Coombe:
How far we are away from the beautiful words of the Bible, which are for all of us: For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

And He taught that we can follow HIm by laying down our lives for one another. How can we all do that right now, instead of flaming one another?

I fear we are grossly off topic, and are about to get this thread closed for a lack of charity.

 

[jack_hawkins]

If you really feel this way, I think it would do more good to pray for the people that are offending you, rather than shaming them in a public place

There’s plenty of Biblical precedents for rebuking people in public before the congregation, esp when their sins have been public

 

[jack_hawkins]

All that aside, Jack stated clearly on this forum that he did not “believe all the teachings of the church”, which is one of the questions asked of those being recieved during the inituation rites. If he stated that he did, when it truth he does not, what does that mean?

I don’t remember saying that but I’ll take your word for it. Surely the answer to your conundrum is obvious, and doesn’t involve any duplicity on my part whatsoever?
Why people should speculate thus on a Christian forum baffles me.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

It’s an Internet Forum - people have to be brief, quick, and to the point. People are trying their best to be charitable (too rarely true), but it’s difficult to convey a “kind” tone of voice while correcting errors in 150 words or less (why does it always have to be 'correcting errors?’ if there is a genuine discussion going on? Others might sometimes be right, or have useful information which can be shared, as you did once you consulted your textbooks.)

Also, with the whole world reading along, you don’t want to let error stand (not everything is an error) without being immediately stomped out (stomping out is unnecessary as Fr Vincent Serpa consistently demonstrates), so that nobody reading along can ever get the impression that it can be permitted to believe such things (the issue of authority and permission to think is a critical one). This is not intended as an attack on the person; it’s an attack on the error itself (not very often).

People who want to do their learning in this kind of environment need to develop a thick skin (why - because they have to know how to go up against people who deal out blows and what is ostensibly always and inevitably correct interpretation?), and they need be prepared to seek understanding rather than follow their inclination to be offended by correction (why does seeking understanding always sit on one side, and correction always sit on the other - none of us is pure as driven snow, the keepers of every truth, or knowledgeable about every life experience, and it seems arrogant to think this way). It is a very rare gift to be able to correct someone’s error while making them feel good about it (do you really see yourself as an ‘error corrector’ and nothing else, not a learner or sharer or discussant or companion or guide or friend?)- I know I don’t have that gift, for sure (I think I for one have become aware of that on this Forum). But it’s better for someone to be offended by me than to go to the Judgement Day with their errors having gone unchallenged for their whole life, and never even having the opportunity to repent and turn to the right way (will you ever understand that there are people who would prefer not to be saved in this way, by an obdurate and unquestioning patroness; but on the other hand, you do try - I wil give you credit for that, if only you could do your teaching with compassion in your heart rather than a perception of The Other as Idiot).

 

[jmcrae]

Carol;

“Questers” don’t go on the attack against their would-be teachers.

They also don’t try to instruct their teachers, either in what to teach, or in how to teach it. They humbly receive the teachings, and focus their questions on the content of the teaching, rather than on the manner of the delivery.

You have probably learned somewhere in all that sociology and psychology that, when a large group of people seems to be on the defense, then there is an attacker in their midst.

If the people are directing their defensiveness at you, then you might think about changing your approach.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

You may not see it, but Catholic doctrine is important–Catholics aren’t just social workers. I am sure you are aware of Mother Teresa. She gave her life to the poor, but she never compromised the Truth of Catholicism. She didn’t resort to handing out condoms to the poor in a false gesture of love. She knew what the heart of her mission was–Jesus, His Church, and the Eucharist. Here is an excerpt from her Nobel Peace Prize Speech:
nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/1979/teresa-lecture.html

Oh please. Mother Theresa treated people of every faith without quibble, and did not hand out condoms because her people were at death’s door: I assume sexual activities were far from their minds.

As HIV specialists, our concern, our Catholic concern, in Africa is that saving life is of greater significance than allowing conception to take place. The doctrine of the church allows for life-saving to take priority over anything else. If you give a condom to someone, you have a chance to save their lives. If you do not, his or her life is at risk. Irish nuns in Africa, for example, know that, and do something about it.

And do not go into moral spirals about Africans sinning, doing wrong and all the rest. We live in a very different cultural environment than North America, and a poverty stricken and undereducated one at that. The HIV pandemic is now reaching Asia and will be worse than Africa. Already over 70 million people have died, 2.5 million of them in South Africa. We have 10 million HIV orphans.

You come here, and refuse to hand out condoms on the basis of some arcane interpretation of God’ scriptures. In the past, we know that RCC interpretations of scripture *have *been made in reaction to a current event. This is the time to do that again: allow people to live. (Google paper by my friend and colleague Fr Michael J Kelly SJ on condoms and the Catholic Church - Michael is a saintly 78 by the way.)

I believe that we are not real social workers. We may be doing social work in the eyes of the people, but we are really contemplatives in the heart of the world. For we are touching the Body of Christ 24 hours. We have 24 hours in this presence, and so you and I. You too try to bring that presence of God in your family, for the family that prays together stays together. And I think that we in our family don’t need bombs and guns, to destroy to bring peace - just get together, love one another, bring that peace, that joy, that strength of presence of each other in the home. And we will be able to overcome all the evil that is in the world.

True love is always based on Truth. Love without Truth is no love at all. Catholics really do believe that the Church speaks with the voice of Christ in the world today. Well said.

We can’t dismiss any of the Church’s teachings just because we find them difficult to understand or hard to follow. We believe that the CC’s teaching on artificial birth control (including condom use) is Christ’s teaching. We wouldn’t say to the CC any more than we would say to Christ “yes I hear what you say, but I don’t agree with you.” Not well said.

Then come and watch the people die. Over two million in South Africa alone, population 50 m… Watch the burials - mortuaries and cemeteries full to overflowing, families impoverished by the cost of funerals, children caring for and burying each parent, and wrapping around them the last blanket they own - just before the cold season. Come and see the children who are not in school or church, who are not being socialised, who have no one to teach them the values that we apply so easily to our lives.

I am impatient because the world out here is a fiery furnace: Nero while Rome burns; Shadrack, Mishack and Abednigo in the fiery furnace come to mind. Nice words, kindly thoughts, backing away from social justice or just plain good deeds or at least compassion for the suffering will never make a child into an full human being.

Yes I am passionate, I am confrontational. I am also speaking with authority, which is sometimes understood as confrontation. But if the Roman Church turns its back, if individuals turn their backs to the real issues - and concentrate on fripperies such as altar cloths, the minutiae of religious rites, the ins and outs of the Reformation instead of on our responsibilities *now *as Christians - real anger and frustration boil over. And I have no apology for that.

 

[jmcrae]

Carol;

Condoms don’t prevent AIDS.

If people are doing the sort of activities that require them to wear condoms, then they are already well outside of the Church’s teachings, long since. Why do they suddenly now care what the Church thinks?

They didn’t care what the Church thought of their adulterous affairs or their bestial and/or homosexual activities. But now that they have AIDS, it’s suddenly this great big deal that the Church forbids condoms?

What’s wrong with this picture?

 

[jack_hawkins]

Carol;

Condoms don’t prevent AIDS.

jmcrae - yes they do

why do people here refuse to face the scientific facts?
Carol is an expert in the field, examining and exploring an organisation which she knows has some deep-rooted opposition to her work - shouldn’t that be respected? doesn’t that mean something?

 

[Carol_Coombe]

This post comes across sounding very judgemental, hurt, and angry. You are right: it is all those things. My efforts to learn in conditions which jmcrae describes blithely as ‘correcting error’ of questers like myself and JH, has made me more than grumpy.

All that were stated in the post by Janet S are basic facts that Jack told us about himself. I don’t see anything sarcastic in it at all, nor prideful arrogance. The way in which the comments were phrased, her sarcasm about his unemployment (I asked her if perhaps he was terminally ill with cancer; or he might be waiting for assignment to a developing country with Medecins sans Frontieres (Doctors Without Borders): we cannot know), and her assumption that every question or comment was an attack in need of correction or discipline, with scant attempt at compassion or empathy was ‘radically surprising’ (can’t think of how to put it more politely) to me.

I have reread his postings, and cannot think why he raised such ire. He and I have similar concerns: at least he got to join RCC, while I still have freedom to decide. And I ***know ***the trauma under which this kind of excessive discipline has put both of us.

Why is there such an adverse reaction to hard questioning, to challenges, to puzzlement, or lack of knowledge? People who do ask questions are told to be patient, to be polite, to be less arrogant, not to overtep the bounds of … I know that Defence of the Faith is an explicit and very tangible responsibility for all Catholic Christians. And perhaps that explains the sometimes frantic efforts to deliver correction, truth and conviction. That is what is damning us all: it is hard to learn from correctors, and correctors are reluctant to learn.

It is very puzzling that he would be interested in joining a church with which he is so vehemently opposed to the teachings thereof. (Guan, your grammar is atrocious here!) That is a matter of no concern to us: it is between JH, his priest and God. If all three are lined up, then there has been a conversion. You especially know that not every question is answered before we become converts: you yourself have said numerous times it is a process of greater understanding from the point where we start, even after conversion. None of us is expected to know all there is to know about transubstantiation and the founding of the RCC inter alia in one go.

There is no viciousness in that post. I ask myself why she wrote in these terms a private message to JH? What did she want to say that she could not say in public?

I would also say that it is inappropriate for one person to tell another what they should bring up in confession, unless somoene asks for advice about an examination of conscience. In general, we are much more effective in taking our own inventory than we are taking that of others. This is the task to which Christ calls each of us, “examine yourselves”. I am sorry if I have offended the inherent courtesies of the Church.

It is significant that this forum has brought such strong feelings to the forefront for you, Carol, and I think that confronting these are an essential step to your spiritual growth, regardless of which ecclesiastical community you eventually find yourself planted. I am not sure what you mean by ‘significant’ and I would like to know. I am still questing; I am still at Mass 5-6 times each week; I live in Fr Marc’s pocket. He is not threatened - and has never been - by any question I have put to him in person, and that can be truly ferocious! The same can be said of my two other mentors.

I have learned much from you, from others, less from others. The strong feelings are perhaps not so much about the Church, but about people and their focus, their seeming self-righteous carelessness about (as I have said before) their responsibilities as opposed to their prerogatives as Catholic Christians.

I live on the edge of life, of the life of the dying and diseased, the poor and the hungry, the uneducated and the alienated. Perhaps it is just that there is no interface between North American Catholicism, and its ritual preferences, and that of Africa and Asia, with their social preferences and obligations.

I do not fight the doctrines of the RCC: I seek to use them to my advantage and to the advantage of others, and I have made that clear in other postings.

Yours in Christ dear Guan,
Carol

You will remain in my prayers toward that end.

Peace,

your friend guan