Non-Orthodox aware of the Orthodox Church?

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

The typical man on the street might know it exists, but that’s about it. Educated people would think of it as “kind of like Catholic”. Other people wouldn’t think much of anything.

That’s exactly my impression also.

The typical American’s knowledge of Orthodoxy is so spotty, that the writers for Seinfeld thought they would make up an obscure religion for George Costanza to convert to, and presto, “Latvian Orthodoxy”. I found this mildly offensive, as it was barely recognizable as being even Christian — showed George getting ready to drink from a chalice (the significance of which was unspecified) while the priest said “welcome to the church!” — and I felt like it was lampooning apostolic Christianity and the Divine Liturgy.

Then they discovered, and I discovered as well, that there actually was a “Latvian Orthodox Church”!

As I understand it, the Latvian Church actually took it with a dose of good humor. Nothing like Seinfeld to get the word out about a small church that hardly anyone knew existed up till then!

 

[babochka]

My son is Eastern European (well, half) and there is nothing whatsoever about his appearance that would distinguish him anywhere from Reykjavik to Moscow and then south to the Alps.

My area is extremely culturally and ethnically diverse and I can pick out a Russian or Ukrainian with pretty good accuracy. It isn’t facial features; it is more subtle cultural markers. This is very often present even in young adults who were born here.

In answer to the original question, I think your average person in my city is aware of Orthodoxy because of the food festivals. We have a Greek Orthodox church that has been here since the 1920s and they’ve had a huge Greek Food Festival on Memorial Day weekend for as long as I can remember. (Not this year, I’m sure.) Slavic Orthodoxy is probably less known where I live. We have a large Eastern European community, but they are mostly from an immigration wave that started in the 1990s and are primarily Baptist and Pentecostal. We do have 2 long-standing Russian Orthodox Churches in the greater metropolitan area, though. I would say that Middle-Eastern and African Orthodoxy isn’t much on anybody’s radar, in spite of the presence of an Antiochian Church, Coptic Church, Syriac Church, and a Palestinian/Jordanian Community under the Ecumenical Patriarchate. We also have Chaldean, Melkite, and Maronite Churches. But most people still think all Middle-Easterners are Muslim.

 

[Inbonum]

@AlNg Long story short, as I now live in the capital, then I will speak from this perspective.
Yes, they are treated fairly, more justly than catholic Croats in Serbia.
We have them in our parliament, they have all the rights and financial support they need (and one they don’t need but we cannot change it), and all the other things they insist on. But they often mock us in their very popular and only newspapers for Serbs in Croatia, which are, incredibly, funded by taxpayers’ money.
Their representative in parliament has been active in Croatia for 30 years, but worst of all, he is doing the greatest divisions and does not allow reconciliation among the population in some parts of the country. Croats (catholic) in Serbia are on the brink; unrecognized, harassed and scared very often. They have to beg someone to give them a crumb, they barely manage to have any right even though in some cities they are majority.

Honestly, these are not tensions in which war could arise, but there is great intolerance, although there is no reason for it now. Even after all these years, the issues of the Homeland war have not been resolved and until agressor accepts truth and confesses their guilt we cannot as country go anywhere further, we are looking for almost 2000 missing civilians (kids, women, men) and soldiers who went to labor camps or killed in their homes… Serbs have records where are bodies but they do not want to give it to us (once they even tricked us with fake ones they already gave us long time ago). Absurd situations.
When there is no truth then there cannot be any future.

I knew a Serbian lady who was married to a Catholic Croat and they got along just fine.

They are fine because he is normal and she is also normal person who doesn’t live in lie. I also know people in “mixed” marriage and they live fine (most of them because they are not religious and nationality isn’t something they care or they care but are truthful and don’t hate someone because of it, they focus only on person).

There would be, in that part of the world. I was referring more to Americans, and in particular, smaller-town and more provincial people who haven’t traveled much, and who lack cross-cultural competence.

Then my apology because I was giving insight from specific perspective.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I also, doubt that most Christians realize that there are more “Orthodox” groups than just the “Eastern Orthodox.”

This is very true.

Also, most people are objectively aware of their national ecclesiology (at least from my experience). I learned that basic Orthodox faith is same as ours from Catholic Priest during religious lesson in school but before I wasn’t quite sure what are the differences… at one point of my life I assumed they are somehow closer to Islam than us (so I was completely off).

I guess most people around me who were religious would not know too much about their beliefs, Filioque or anything like that… they just knew about Patriarchs and not accepting Pope and so on. I am unsure if validity of Orthodox Sacraments is what people knew about too.

That said, once I started browsing internet to educate myself in Christian religions to choose which denomination I believe is correct, Orthodox beliefs were clarified to me pretty soon and I think you can find lots of information once you start searching. It’s much easier than googling for certain Protestant denominations and since Orthodoxy has less dogmas, easier than Catholicism too.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

My son is Eastern European (well, half) and there is nothing whatsoever about his appearance that would distinguish him anywhere from Reykjavik to Moscow and then south to the Alps.

My area is extremely culturally and ethnically diverse and I can pick out a Russian or Ukrainian with pretty good accuracy. It isn’t facial features; it is more subtle cultural markers. This is very often present even in young adults who were born here.

Then those young adults were probably raised in thoroughly Russian and Ukrainian homes, and were brought up that way. My son is half-Polish and has never been raised with Polish cultural expectations — sadly, despite his mother’s and my best efforts, he does not even speak Polish (she’s Polish, I’m not but I have a basic command of the language). The only things “Polish” about him are certain facial features (really more Ukrainian) and a strong, strong will! (The concept of “will” is very prominent in Polish culture and “Wola” — Polish for “will” — is a feature in many city names. Chopin was born in Zelazowa Wola and there is a city named Stalowa Wola, meaning “Iron Will” and “Steel Will” respectively.)

Not too long ago, I noticed something a little “different” about a pharmacist who was filling my prescription at the drug store. I couldn’t quite put my finger on it, she was a very striking-looking lady, just something about the set of her facial expression, something about the body language. Then I got nosy and read the pharmacists’ certificates that were posted on the wall — yes, sure enough, she was
Russian. I can’t describe it, but I know it when I see it.

In answer to the original question, I think your average person in my city is aware of Orthodoxy because of the food festivals. We have a Greek Orthodox church that has been here since the 1920s and they’ve had a huge Greek Food Festival on Memorial Day weekend for as long as I can remember. (Not this year, I’m sure.)

I know all about the Greek food festivals. People might have some idea that there is a “Greek church” that hosts these festivals, but your typical Baptist or Methodist couldn’t tell you the first thing about what that church believes, does, or teaches.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

When my late mother was young, they still had Christmas on Jan. 7. Other kids would tease her, saying: “Are you a Red Russian or a White Russian?” She NEVER forgot that even years later.

Btw, she was Byzantine Catholic (Carpatho-Rusyn) so she wasn’t Russian period.

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

There was a young man years ago who converted to Orthodoxy from Protestantism. His family were thoroughly convinced he had joined a cult and tried many different ways of persuasion to get him saved from the “cult”. Year after year he prayed for them, finally his father said ‘I am going to pray you back [to Evangelicalism]’, the young man replied, ‘I am going to pray for you as well.’ After a week of mutual prayer, the father converted to Orthodoxy leading the rest of the family into the Church.

Most people have so very little Catechesis in Church History in this country, that Orthodoxy is always identified by its ethnic roots and has the allure of exotic mystery, “Oh, you’re Russian Orthodox? Or Greek Orthodox?.” Trying to explain that one is American Orthodox and then further complicating matters by saying, “but my bishop is Lebanese, connected to Antioch, the Church founded by Ss. Peter and Paul”, only gives a glazed incoherent look.

I think those dear brothers and sisters in the Orthodox Church in America have the best chance for things making sense in casual conversation because most of their bishops are Americans and the Metropolitan Cathedral is in Washington D.C.

 

[babochka]

Most people have so very little Catechesis in Church History in this country, that Orthodoxy is always identified by its ethnic roots and has the allure of exotic mystery, “Oh, you’re Russian Orthodox? Or Greek Orthodox?.”

This is often exacerbated by the people themselves. My best friend growing up was Orthodox, but you wouldn’t have heard her describing herself in that way. If you asked her what her religion was, she would have said, “I am Greek.” Her grandmother, born in Greece, would have told you she’s Orthodox. But the cultural aspects in everyday life overshadowed the religious aspects. The had Greek Easter and the grandmother had a Greek funeral. Orthodoxy was never featured.

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

This is often exacerbated by the people themselves. My best friend growing up was Orthodox, but you wouldn’t have heard her describing herself in that way. If you asked her what her religion was, she would have said, “I am Greek.” Her grandmother, born in Greece, would have told you she’s Orthodox. But the cultural aspects in everyday life overshadowed the religious aspects. The had Greek Easter and the grandmother had a Greek funeral.

Agreed, 100%.

Perhaps in American Orthodoxy we can recover the catholicity of the Church, because we have nearly all of the jurisdictions represented in America. One can only hope and pray.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

PilgrimMichelangelo:

Most people have so very little Catechesis in Church History in this country, that Orthodoxy is always identified by its ethnic roots and has the allure of exotic mystery, “Oh, you’re Russian Orthodox? Or Greek Orthodox?.”

This is often exacerbated by the people themselves. My best friend growing up was Orthodox, but you wouldn’t have heard her describing herself in that way. If you asked her what her religion was, she would have said, “I am Greek.” Her grandmother, born in Greece, would have told you she’s Orthodox. But the cultural aspects in everyday life overshadowed the religious aspects. The had Greek Easter and the grandmother had a Greek funeral. Orthodoxy was never featured.

It is never going to happen, because I take seriously the words of Pope Boniface VIII, “It is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff” (Unam sanctam, 1302) — others may not know any better, but I know better (and I’m not the only one) — but one difficulty I would have with becoming Orthodox, is that many Orthodox Church give the appearance of conflating religion with ethnicity, and that’s a turn-off to anyone who doesn’t share that ethnicity.

When I became a Catholic, I had absolutely no sensation of joining the “Italian National Catholic Church” (my Catholic environment was a mix of German and Irish, with a smattering of Italians and the occasional Slav). By contrast, I recall from the film My Big Fat Greek Wedding, otherwise a very funny, joyous movie, the baptism scene of the non-Greek groom — “now you’re Greek!”. I wanted to scream and throw something at the TV! As I said in another post recently, I would blend in far better in a Russian Orthodox church, in that I have adopted some Slavic ways through marriage, it would not be immediately obvious from my appearance that I am not Russian, I can understand some of the language at a very elementary level, and I have come to realize that pork, sour cream, potatoes, and cabbage are, indeed, among the basic food groups But Greek or Lebanese? No way. (Food, absolutely. Ethnicity, never.)

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

Pope Boniface VIII, “It is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff” (Unam sanctam, 1302)

I am coming to believe this more and more as Orthodoxy becomes increasingly incoherent in the realm of polity, faith and morals, etc.

many Orthodox Church give the appearance of conflating religion with ethnicity,

Yes. Sadly this is all too often the case similar to what I ran into in many Evangelical circles, the assumption that just because you are American you are automatically Evangelical-Protestant (but really all true Americans are Baptists, doncha know? ) Meanwhile in the background the Anglicans become royally indignant, and the Catholics just sigh, while the Orthodox are busy building their own ethnic ghettoes.

“ now you’re Greek!”. I wanted to scream and throw something at the TV!

Ditto. That movie is hilarious but very accurate in that it captures the confusion between ethnicity and faith perfectly. Too many of us convertodox have had encounters with some old ya-ya (grandmother) or second generation Greek who asks if we are Greek, and when we reply “no” they ask “Then why are you here? This is Greek Church”. Cue the exasperated sighs as we zealously try to explain that the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church (the Orthodox Church) is for everyone, and all we get is a similar consternated reply such as “But you are Greek?”.

I have come to realize that pork, sour cream, potatoes, and cabbage are, indeed, among the basic food groups But Greek or Lebanese? No way. (Food, absolutely. Ethnicity, never.)

Yes. Yes. and uhhhh yes.

 

[babochka]

Too many of us convertodox have had encounters with some old ya-ya (grandmother) or second generation Greek who asks if we are Greek, and when we reply “no” they ask “Then why are you here? This is Greek Church”.

This sort of thing happens in the Eastern Catholic churches as well. How much depends on the jurisdiction and it doesn’t happen as much as it used to.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

PilgrimMichelangelo:

Too many of us convertodox have had encounters with some old ya-ya (grandmother) or second generation Greek who asks if we are Greek, and when we reply “no” they ask “Then why are you here? This is Greek Church”.

This sort of thing happens in the Eastern Catholic churches as well. How much depends on the jurisdiction and it doesn’t happen as much as it used to.

I realize this. I used to attend a Byzantine Catholic (Carpatho-Rusyn) parish, and I mean no offense in saying this, but the vibe was “Slovak social club comprised of transplanted Pittsburghers”, and I never felt like I belonged there. Nobody was hostile or unhospitable, it just wasn’t my place — I’m not Slovak and I’m not a Yinzer.

It may just be my imagination, but Melkite churches seem to be a bit more welcoming to anyone and everyone. Might just be the Lebanese tendency to be warm, engaging, and welcoming on general principles, or possibly the recognition that “Christianity pretty much started here — “they were first called Christians in Antioch” — and the message is for the whole world”. I don’t know.

 

[ReaderT]

Orthodoxy becomes increasingly incoherent in the realm of polity, faith and morals, etc.

With no offense meant, the Roman church has done a few things lately that have me puzzled too… Why, for example, are there shamans planting trees in the Vatican? Why did the Italian Bishops’ agency put a prayer to Pachamama in their publication? They are violating very fundamental concepts of Christianity… Moscow would never do these things

 

[HomeschoolDad]

PilgrimMichelangelo:

Orthodoxy becomes increasingly incoherent in the realm of polity, faith and morals, etc.

With no offense meant, the Roman church has done a few things lately that have me puzzled too… Why, for example, are there shamans planting trees in the Vatican? Why did the Italian Bishops’ agency put a prayer to Pachamama in their publication? They are violating very fundamental concepts of Christianity… Moscow would never do these things

And Moscow would be right.

If Russian Orthodoxy could enter into some kind of union with Rome, “the lightest touch possible”, reforming what few doctrines and practices there are which conflict with Catholicism (divorce and remarriage, denying purgatory, etc.), and leaving Moscow alone to run her own affairs otherwise, I could easily become a Russian Orthodox adherent.

 

[AlNg]

I couldn’t quite put my finger on it, she was a very striking-looking lady, just something about the set of her facial expression, something about the body language. Then I got nosy and read the pharmacists’ certificates that were posted on the wall — yes, sure enough, she was
Russian. I can’t describe it, but I know it when I see it.

Very true. Russian women are among the most beautiful and elegant in the whole world. Of course Asian women are also right up there with the best. And i don’t want to leave out anyone, so there is no doubt that there are beautiful African women, European women, and Latino women too. With so many wonderful women, mothers and wives out there, it is too bad that the Roman church is reluctant to ordain married men as priests (with few exceptions).

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

With no offense meant, the Roman church has done a few things lately that have me puzzled too… Why, for example, are there shamans planting trees in the Vatican? Why did the Italian Bishops’ agency put a prayer to Pachamama in their publication? They are violating very fundamental concepts of Christianity… Moscow would never do these things

Moscow has capitulated to the world before, ie Sergianism, priests working for the Soviets via the Confessional etc. so I would be very cautious to say that Moscow would never do these things. That being said, yes, Rome is falling into an apostasy, a denial of Christ that some have likened to St. Peter’s threefold denial of the Master during His Passion. We all (especially Orthodox Christians) should be praying for Pope Francis and the RCC during this time of confusion in the Church. For if Rome falls away totally, even for a time, just as St. Peter was not numbered amongst the Apostles until his restoration after the Resurrection, the whole world will be plunged into a bitter darkness far worse than the widespread confusion, moral anarchy and anti-Christian spirit that is manifest today. We must watch and pray, and dedicate ourselves to continual personal repentance.

 

[George720]

Moscow would never do these things

Never is a long time…

But yes, for now, the MP is strong, and would not put a pagan idol on their Altar as did happen in Rome under the direction of Her Pope…

Lord have Mercy!

And God protect the Moscow Patriarchate!

geo

 

[HomeschoolDad]

And God protect the Moscow Patriarchate!

May Almighty God indeed protect the Moscow Patriarchate and bring her into union with The First Rome.

I am not taking sides in any of the intra-Orthodox struggles. I’m for everyone, Rome, Moscow, Kiev, Constantinople, and everyone else.

 

[ReaderT]

Moscow has capitulated to the world before, ie Sergianism, priests working for the Soviets via the Confessional etc. so I would be very cautious to say that Moscow would never do these things.

You’re right that Sergius made compromises to Stalin (he likely didn’t know about the infiltration of the priesthood, a clandestine KGB operation) - but that of course amounts to just another form of erastianism, placing the State above the Church, of which there have been many instances in the Old Testament and in 1900 years of Church history. There is nothing theological in that, but human weakness. On the other hand, encouraging prayer to a demon (as “All the gods of the pagans are demons” Psalm 96:5) should make one seriously question what is going on with those Italian Bishops. It should say to us, something is way off here and needs adjustment