Non-Orthodox aware of the Orthodox Church?

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

You’re right that Sergius made compromises to Stalin (he likely didn’t know about the infiltration of the priesthood, a clandestine KGB operation) - but that of course amounts to just another form of erastianism, placing the State above the Church, of which there have been many instances in the Old Testament and in 1900 years of Church history.

Fair enough, but I certainly would not write off the Moscow Patriarchate as impervious to evil. Without getting into the intricacies of the Living Church Heresy, Sergianism, etc, of which I admittedly am no great scholar, it seems to me a very great Orthodox spiritual blindspot to consider that we could “never fall so far as the Latins”.

There is nothing theological in that, but human weakness.

There is theology in subjecting the Church to the will of the State, especially if you consider the Western Church and the Investiture Controversy, which ended with the triumph of the rights of the Church to appoint her own bishops and run her own affairs. This to me is one of the great weaknesses of the Eastern Church, never having had a chance to fully assert her rights of self-government, she has ever bowed to the state (whichever state she finds herself in). Of course there are always exceptions, like St. Phillip, Metropolitan of Moscow who stood up to Ivan the Terrible. But that is a different story.

On the other hand, encouraging prayer to a demon (as “All the gods of the pagans are demons” Psalm 96:5) should make one seriously question what is going on with those Italian Bishops. It should say to us, something is way off here and needs adjustment

I quite agree. As I have posted elsewhere: “when the pope is openly blessing the use of an idol during Mass in Churches founded upon the very labors of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul who toppled idols and converted pagans, you might want to consider that the abomination of desolation is in the holy place, and something very wrong is manifesting itself in the heart of Western Christendom. Wake up!”

 

[ReaderT]

When the pope is openly blessing the use of an idol during Mass in Churches founded upon the very labors of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul who toppled idols and converted pagans, you might want to consider that the abomination of desolation is in the holy place, and something very wrong is manifesting itself in the heart of Western Christendom. Wake up!

Yes, exactly. It should frighten everyone.

There is theology in subjecting the Church to the will of the State, especially if you consider the Western Church and the Investiture Controversy, which ended with the triumph of the rights of the Church to appoint her own bishops and run her own affairs

There was the Investiture Controversy in the Latin West, you’re right. In Sergius’ case, he became Patriarch after the Soviets arrested his predecessor and dynamited his Cathedral… Imagine if Communists seized Italy, arrested Pope Francis and dynamited St. Peter’s Basilica - that is the equivalent. Sergius made mistakes in his (incredibly tense) relations to Stalin and the Soviets, but none of us could probably do it better. I don’t see it as an issue of “theology” but leadership really.

This to me is one of the great weaknesses of the Eastern Church, never having had a chance to fully assert her rights of self-government, she has ever bowed to the state (whichever state she finds herself in).

I don’t see it that way; there were many patriarchs who stood up to the state. Saint John Chrysostom was exiled twice for refusing to be quiet. Saint Photios as well. Saint George V of Constantinople was a member of the Filiki Eteria (Friendly Society) that was preparing for a revolt against the Turkish rule, and was martyred. There are many more, of course.

it seems to me a very great Orthodox spiritual blindspot to consider that we could “ never fall so far as the Latins ”.

Certainly you’re right that parts of the faithful can (and did) fall into error - the Living Church, the Bezpopovtsy etc. But never the whole Church: “the gates of Hell shall not prevail. …”

 

[catholic03]

@ReaderT

I very much admire the Russian Orthodox Church and I hope for the eventual communion between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.

Would you be open to the Russian Orthodox Church entering into communion with the Catholic Church? We already have a sui iuris Russian Greek Catholic Church.

 

[dochawk]

, but the vibe was “Slovak social club comprised of transplanted Pittsburghers”,

gosh, we have enough fingers to count the actual ruthenians in my parish, I think . . .

It may just be my imagination, but Melkite churches seem to be a bit more welcoming to anyone and everyone

they have the unfair advantage of being both byzantine and Mediterranean . . .

:crazy_face:

I’ve never been to a BC parish anywhere where they don’t kind of just sweep you in.

(heck, I’ve told visitors that there’s a a 400 calorie minimum before they can leave the social . . . :crazy_face: )

If Russian Orthodoxy could enter into some kind of union with Rome, “the lightest touch possible”,

If the ROC could accept any type of primacy for Rome, rather than moving Moscow up, next year could end without the schism . . .

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

, but the vibe was “Slovak social club comprised of transplanted Pittsburghers”,

gosh, we have enough fingers to count the actual ruthenians in my parish, I think . . .

This was about 30 years ago, metro DC area. Your demographics in Las Vegas are probably different.

HomeschoolDad:

If Russian Orthodoxy could enter into some kind of union with Rome, “the lightest touch possible”,

If the ROC could accept any type of primacy for Rome, rather than moving Moscow up, next year could end without the schism . . .

I’d vote for taking pretty much anything we could get.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

My pastor is a Ukrainian Greek Catholic married priest. It’s not easy balancing 2 parishes and family life.

As His Beatitude Sviatoslav said (paraphrasing here) the RCC should not look for simple solutions to complex problems.

 

[catholic03]

Very true. Russian women are among the most beautiful and elegant in the whole world. Of course Asian women are also right up there with the best. And i don’t want to leave out anyone, so there is no doubt that there are beautiful African women, European women, and Latino women too.

This is a very strange reason to support married Latin rite priests…

 

[Margaret_Ann]

just as St. Peter was not numbered amongst the Apostles until his restoration after the Resurrection,

Are you sure about that? Afaik, every list of the Twelve Apostles in the Gospels begins with St. Peter and ends with the traitor (who shall not be named here). And in John 20: 19-31 all the Apostles except St. Thomas were in the Upper Room when Our Lord appeared to them, ergo, St. Peter was there in the Upper Room. If St. Peter was not there it would have been noted in Scripture.

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

From one of the Ressurectional Gospels according to St. Mark: “But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’”–Mark 16:7 This is a common patristic interpretation of the passage, showing that St. Peter was not numbered among the disciples until his restoration by the Risen Lord:

14 This was now the third time Jesus appeared to the disciples after He was raised from the dead.

Jesus Reinstates Peter

15 When they had finished eating, Jesus asked Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love Me more than these?”

“Yes, Lord,” he answered, “You know I love You.”

Jesus replied, “Feed My lambs.”

16 Jesus asked a second time, “Simon son of John, do you love Me?”

“Yes, Lord,” he answered, “You know I love You.”

Jesus told him, “Shepherd My sheep.”

17 Jesus asked a third time, “Simon son of John, do you love Me?”

Peter was deeply hurt that Jesus had asked him a third time, “Do you love Me?”

“Lord, You know all things,” he replied. “You know I love You.”

Jesus said to him, “Feed My sheep.

Here Christ uses a threefold restoration, affirming St. Peter’s love for Him, in order to cleanse the threefold denial. Further He tells Peter to feed and shepherd the flock, thereby entrusting him with greater authority (and responsibility) as Prince of the Apostles.

Further the Lord prophesies the fall and repentance of St. Peter in Luke 22:32 when He says: “But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith will not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

Just found this in the Divine Services:

“By His threefold question: Peter, lovest thou Me? Christ set aright the threefold denial. Wherefore, Simon said unto the Knower of hidden things: Lord, Thou knowest all things; Thou comprehendest all things; Thou knowest that I love Thee. Whereupon the Saviour said unto him: Feed My sheep, feed Mine elect, feed My lambs, which I have purchased with Mine own Blood unto their salvation. Do thou entreat Him, O Apostle blessed of God, that we be granted great mercy.”–Lord I Cry, Doxasticon, Feast of Ss. Peter and Paul (June 29).

 

[ReaderT]

Would you be open to the Russian Orthodox Church entering into communion with the Catholic Church? We already have a sui iuris Russian Greek Catholic Church.

We look at it this way:

1. We believe our Church is correct (if we didn’t, we wouldn’t be there).
2. The Orthodox Church is Christ’s Bride. His Bride lacks nothing and has no flaws. So we shouldn’t have to change any doctrines.
3. So if anyone wants to come into Communion with the Orthodox Church, they give up everything that is not Orthodox, and then we will be in communion. This is the only way it can work.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

The Orthodox Church is Christ’s Bride. His Bride lacks nothing and has no flaws. So we shouldn’t have to change any doctrines.

Would the Orthodox Church be willing to revisit its practices on divorce and remarriage, or the de facto acceptance of non-abortifacient contraception by many Orthodox priests in directing couples? (To be fair, let’s just say that the typical Catholic priest could be far more aggressive in calling this sin to people’s attention, but that doesn’t seem to be the practice in most places and circumstances.)

There is also a problem regarding purgatory, but I do realize that the Orthodox Church recognizes a certain state of purification and “progress”, for lack of a better word, after death, she just doesn’t call it “purgatory” or attempt to dissect it. I know as well that some Orthodox embrace the concept of “toll booths”, various thresholds (again, for lack of a better word) that the faithful encounter after death.

 

[catholic03]

Would the Orthodox Church be willing to revisit its practices on divorce and remarriage, or the de facto acceptance of non-abortifacient contraception by many Orthodox priests in directing couples?

That’s my question as well. The Orthodox Church would have to condemn these practises.

@ReaderT

Do you think that reunion between the two Churches is likely or even possible? Especially considering the Ecumenical Patriarch’s statement that reunion is “inevitable”.

 

[ReaderT]

Would the Orthodox Church be willing to revisit its practices on divorce and remarriage

No, probably not

the de facto acceptance of non-abortifacient contraception by many Orthodox priests in directing couples?

The use of contraceptives in Orthodoxy doesn’t seem to be defacto acceptance in my understanding, but more like “barely permissible in specific circumstances” - maybe other Orthodox can comment.

There is also a problem regarding purgatory, but I do realize that the Orthodox Church recognizes a certain state of purification and “progress”, for lack of a better word, after death, she just doesn’t call it “purgatory” or attempt to dissect it. I know as well that some Orthodox embrace the concept of “toll booths”, various thresholds (again, for lack of a better word) that the faithful encounter after death.

Yes. The universal teaching has been that the dead go to a place where they can be helped by our prayers, liturgies, etc.

Do you think that reunion between the two Churches is likely or even possible? Especially considering the Ecumenical Patriarch’s statement that reunion is “inevitable”.

God knows. My opinion: impossible unless major changes are made which neither side will do.

Anyway, sorry, I’ve been off topic and will stop now

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Anyway, sorry, I’ve been off topic and will stop now

No, you’re fine. I dislike the idea of “topic police” — very often, discussions go where they need to go (the work of the Holy Spirit? — can’t say it’s not). Within very broad limits, I have no problem with a topic going into an unforeseen direction.

 

[ziapueblo]

or the de facto acceptance of non-abortifacient contraception by many Orthodox priests in directing couples?

As an Orthodox Christian I appeal to Athenagoras I of Constantinople and his response to Humanae Vitae: “He could not have spoken in any other way.” (Herder Korrespondenz, Orbis Catholicus, Freiburg, 1968, pg. 404)

Further He tells Peter to feed and shepherd the flock, thereby entrusting him with greater authority (and responsibility) as Prince of the Apostles.

Yes, this is the Petrine Ministry and no fellow Orthodox would deny that. The Papacy is a vehicle through which the Bishop of Rome exercises his special ministry. But when the definition and exercise of the primacy interferes with, or becomes an impediment to the Petrine Ministry, then it is the primacy that much change, because the Papacy exists to serve the Church, not the Church to exalt the Primacy.

The truth is, Rome historically has held the primacy and there must be a focus on unity. However, accepting Roman primacy does not mean accepting the current state of the Papacy, as defined and exercised unilaterally by the Church of Rome. This is the hurdle that is in the way of restoring full communion between the two Churches.

ZP

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

or the de facto acceptance of non-abortifacient contraception by many Orthodox priests in directing couples?

As an Orthodox Christian I appeal to Athenagoras I of Constantinople and his response to Humanae Vitae : “He could not have spoken in any other way.” ( Herder Korrespondenz , Orbis Catholicus, Freiburg, 1968, pg. 404)

I was very pleased, when I read some time ago that Athenagoras had said this. Are there Orthodox priests who discourage couples from using contraception? Or is it ever brought up in Orthodox circles?

PilgrimMichelangelo:

Further He tells Peter to feed and shepherd the flock, thereby entrusting him with greater authority (and responsibility) as Prince of the Apostles.

Yes, this is the Petrine Ministry and no fellow Orthodox would deny that. The Papacy is a vehicle through which the Bishop of Rome exercises his special ministry. But when the definition and exercise of the primacy interferes with, or becomes an impediment to the Petrine Ministry, then it is the primacy that much change, because the Papacy exists to serve the Church, not the Church to exalt the Primacy.

The truth is, Rome historically has held the primacy and there must be a focus on unity. However, accepting Roman primacy does not mean accepting the current state of the Papacy, as defined and exercised unilaterally by the Church of Rome. This is the hurdle that is in the way of restoring full communion between the two Churches.

So am I to understand that the Orthodox say something like “we recognize, in principle, the primacy of Rome, and the Petrine ministry, and we would have no problem with that — but as things stand now, Rome overreaches, Rome goes too far, we fear that if there were to be unity, we would be expected to become little more than ‘Catholics with a different Mass’, Orthodoxy would basically die, so we have to remain in this less-than-ideal state of involuntary schism”?

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

Orthodox say something like

Firstly, to say “Orthodox say something like” is too broad a generalization. Getting ten Orthodox Christians to agree on anything is like trying to get ten five years olds to agree on what flavor of ice cream is their favorite.

But seriously, (too) many traditional Orthodox would say the Catholics are in a state of Schism and are heretics and must come back to the Orthodox Church. They also have strange ideas about what a Western Orthodox Church would look like, and tend to over-byzantinize history. They distrust the Mass of St. Peter the Apostle (the EF) and would totally reject the innovations of Vatican II regarding liturgy as erroneous, man-made departure from Tradition. These Orthodox see the Papacy as a liability, unnecessary for the unity of the Orthodox Church and a deviation from the Apostolic Tradition. That is some traditional Orthodox, mostly in the Old World or over-zealous American converts.

Other Orthodox are either Semi-Ecumenist or full Ecumenist, and would agree with the principle of Petrine ministry as you outlined here:

"we recognize, in principle, the primacy of Rome, and the Petrine ministry, and we would have no problem with that — but as things stand now, Rome overreaches, Rome goes too far, we fear that if there were to be unity, we would be expected to become little more than ‘Catholics with a different Mass’, Orthodoxy would basically die, so we have to remain in this less-than-ideal state of involuntary schism” ?

 

[ReaderT]

Are there Orthodox priests who discourage couples from using contraception? Or is it ever brought up in Orthodox circles?

Yes and yes. The standard position is very much anti-contraception. Here is a search on a Russian faith website, similar to EWTN but a little more gung-ho:
https://russian-faith.com/searchs=contraception

You can see titles like Contraception Destroys the Individual, Family and Nation - Popular Russian Priest (Smirnov)

 

[catholic03]

@ReaderT

I know you’re a convert to Russian Orthodoxy from Methodism (?). My question is, have you come to ‘fit in’ to the Russian Church as a non-Russian, and have you come to like Russia as a country?