Non-theistic foundation of morality?

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“Consequentialism is the view that morality is all about producing the right kinds of overall consequences.” - iep.utm.edu/conseque/

As the article goes on to say, consequentialists are only concerned with outcomes, not with anything else such as “doing one’s duty, respecting rights, obeying nature, obeying God, obeying one’s own heart”, etc.
William Haines, I submit, is not the “go-to” authority on Catholic morality. An encyclical – Veritas Splendor is authoritative. JP II explains that consequentialism is only in error if it admits objectively evil acts as normative (emphasis mine):
75 … The teleological ethical theories (proportionalism, consequentialism), while acknowledging that moral values are indicated by reason and by Revelation, maintain that it is never possible to formulate an absolute prohibition of particular kinds of behaviour which would be in conflict, in every circumstance and in every culture, with those values.

“Intrinsic evil”: it is not licit to do evil that good may come of it (cf. Rom 3:8)
  1. One must therefore reject the thesis, characteristic of teleological and proportionalist theories, which holds that it is impossible to qualify as morally evil according to its species — its “object” — the deliberate choice of certain kinds of behaviour or specific acts, apart from a consideration of the intention for which the choice is made or the totality of the foreseeable consequences of that act for all persons concerned.
  2. …The unacceptability of “teleological”, "consequentialist" and “proportionalist” ethical** theories, which deny the existence of negative moral norms regarding specific kinds of behaviour**, norms which are valid without exception, is confirmed in a particularly eloquent way by Christian martyrdom, which has always accompanied and continues to accompany the life of the Church even today.
    IOANNES PAULUS PP. II
    VERITATIS SPLENDOR
I mean what I said, that killing another child of God is always evil but may be justified. I think you shouldn’t put words into the Pope’s mouth, he said the death penalty is cruel and inhuman, not imprisonment.
I don’t believe I put words into anyone’s mouth as no attribution was given in my post. I merely point out that killing is not intrinsically evil and may be permitted in certain circumstances. I am personally against the death penalty today in the U.S.A. but not in 50 AD in Rome.

For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil.b Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it, for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer (Romans 13:3-4).
 
“Consequentialism is the view that morality is all about producing the right kinds of overall consequences.” - iep.utm.edu/conseque/

As the article goes on to say, consequentialists are only concerned with outcomes, not with anything else such as “doing one’s duty, respecting rights, obeying nature, obeying God, obeying one’s own heart”, etc.

That’s why Catholics usually argue against it. But apparently not on this thread.

I mean what I said, that killing another child of God is always evil but may be justified. I think you shouldn’t put words into the Pope’s mouth, he said the death penalty is cruel and inhuman, not imprisonment.
If it’s justified, it’s not morally evil. Just because there is an undesirable consequence doesn’t mean that the action is wrong.

I guarantee you, the folks engaging you here are not consequentialists. For instance, ask them if they think an individual private citizen could licitly execute a detained dangerous criminal…

It’s helpful to speak in terms of the three aspects of a moral act: intention, circumstance, and object. That might help to clear the difficulty.
 
William Haines, I submit, is not the “go-to” authority on Catholic morality. An encyclical – Veritas Splendor is authoritative.
Can’t see your point. Catholic professor Edward Feser links to that exact same article, and quotes another Catholic professor: “Consequentialism is, as David Oderberg has put it, “downright false and dangerous, an evil doctrine that should be avoided by all right-thinking people.” - edwardfeser.blogspot.com.es/2010/08/happy-consequentialism-day.html

And you quote JPII stating that consequentialist theories are unacceptable.

As I said, Catholics usually argue against consequentialism.
I don’t believe I put words into anyone’s mouth as no attribution was given in my post. I merely point out that killing is not intrinsically evil and may be permitted in certain circumstances. I am personally against the death penalty today in the U.S.A. but not in 50 AD in Rome.
Oh. So capital punishment is just a matter of personal opinion as it wasn’t specifically abolished in scripture. Therefore slavery must also be just a matter of personal opinion as it wasn’t abolished in scripture either.

There was me thinking Catholics would argue against moral relativism. Silly me 😊 :D.
 
If it’s justified, it’s not morally evil. Just because there is an undesirable consequence doesn’t mean that the action is wrong.

I guarantee you, the folks engaging you here are not consequentialists. For instance, ask them if they think an individual private citizen could licitly execute a detained dangerous criminal…

It’s helpful to speak in terms of the three aspects of a moral act: intention, circumstance, and object. That might help to clear the difficulty.
Might be an idea to hear from the two posters who seem to be defending consequentialism before writing any guarantees.

On your three aspects, in ethics there’s usually a principle of minimum force, such that accidentally killing someone in self-defense is justified but intentionally killing while in the act of self-defense is not, but that’s not been mentioned either.

Utilitarianism claims that as long as the consequences have a high utility, every act is automatically deemed good and virtuous, nothing is ruled out. Obviously there’s no need for God in such a system, since any and every act is permitted as long as the outcome is favorable to the majority, no matter what the intent.
 
Can’t see your point. Catholic professor Edward Feser links to that exact same article, and quotes another Catholic professor: “Consequentialism is, as David Oderberg has put it, “downright false and dangerous, an evil doctrine that should be avoided by all right-thinking people.” - edwardfeser.blogspot.com.es/2010/08/happy-consequentialism-day.html

And you quote JPII stating that consequentialist theories are unacceptable.
After the pope speaks ex cathedra, all else is merely commentary. In Veritas Splendor, the pope explains where and how consequentialism fails as a moral system: a failure to recognize some acts are always and everywhere evil in their object.
Oh. So capital punishment is just a matter of personal opinion as it wasn’t specifically abolished in scripture. Therefore slavery must also be just a matter of personal opinion as it wasn’t abolished in scripture either.
I think you confuse condone with condemn. That a practice or act is not condemned does not necessarily condone the same. (An acquittal is not a verdict of innocent.) Slavery, unlike capital punishment, is not condoned in scripture.
There was me thinking Catholics would argue against moral relativism. Silly me 😊 :D.
Not silly; just need to know more about Catholic teaching.
 
If you mean that the state sponsored killing is intrinsically evil then defending in a just war would be immoral.
Killing in self defence is fine (if that is the only option). Defending in a just war is fine, if killing is the only option. But we are talking about executing someone who is already in custody (he is obviously in custody or else he could not be killed).

If we execute him, it may serve two purposes. Justice in the form of retribution and protection of society if there is a likelihood that he will reoffend (plus it would act as a deterrent to others).

What if we capture enemy soldiers? It would have been fine to kill them in a just war or as a matter of self defence. But if the argument runs that a society that cannot afford to incarcerate a man convicted of murder may execute him (the most fatuous argument that I have heard for quite some time, and I’ve heard a few zingers), then what is to stop us executing the prisoners if we cannot secure them? The only other choice would be to let them go and have them kill members of your side.
I am personally against the death penalty today in the U.S.A. but not in 50 AD in Rome.
And that isn’t relativism? If I had written that, half the posters on this thad would have jumped down my throat. As the pope said, it is ALWAYS wrong. Do you think he might say: ‘Well, fair enough…I really meant in modern times. Back then it would have been OK’.

I wonder if there might be a date or a place at which it becomes categorically wrong. Could you suggest any? Maybe France at any time or maybe Rome in 200 AD?

Quite bizarre.
 
As I said earlier, we all usually work out the right thing to do by looking at the consequences of different options. But we don’t only look at the consequences. Most of us don’t think any means is permissible, such as rape or torture or killing. Most of us believe some acts are categorically wrong.

But apparently that doesn’t include everyone, and obviously God cannot possibly be the foundation for morality if you can make such complicated arguments to turn evil into good and vice into virtue 🤷.
If you read very carefully the article from Catholic Culture that you cited, you will notice that the reasons that Dr. Mirus dismisses consequentialism as a reliable moral system is not because it is necessarily wrong to connect consequences to the moral wrongness or rightness of an act but because humans cannot reliably do so.

Here is the summary of his argument:
Because we are unable to foresee all the consequences—and even all the kinds of consequences—which flow from any given act, and because we cannot truly judge whether each of these consequences is essentially good or evil without a prior moral standard, consequentialism simply can’t work. Principles drawn from beyond our own immediate perceptions and desires are absolutely essential. Moreover, in practice consequentialists are invariably intent on justifying something they shouldn’t want. So beware: The end really doesn’t justify the means.
Notice the two “becauses” that he gives to argue that case…
  1. “…because we are unable to foresee all the consequences…”
  2. “…because we cannot truly judge whether each of these consequences is essentially good or evil without a prior moral standard…”
In the case of 1) the question might be asked whether someone (say God,) in a position to judge all of the consequences could then make reliable use of consequences to justify moral action or inaction.

The answer to that, I would suppose, by Dr. Mirus would likely be that it wouldn’t matter because God would be completely knowing of the “prior moral standard” by which to judge the actions as good or evil.

Which takes us to the necessity of teleology with regard to making moral judgements.

I would argue that moral judgements of any kind cannot be made without reference to the object or ends for which actions are undertaken to begin with. That is, we could not say anything is good or bad completely divorced from the outcomes of the act. The outcome or object of the act is integral to explaining why the action is bad. Otherwise we are left in the position that an action is just bad or just good for no reason other than because it is – which isn’t reasonable, at all.

Thus, killing an innocent person is bad merely because it is, not for any reason whatsoever because, in principle, NO reason is required. It would be unnecessary to claim killing of innocents is bad BECAUSE it takes away or removes some good from their lives, that simply wouldn’t matter Since the consequences of killing an innocent don’t matter at all in the judgement, according to this entailment, then in cannot be that killing an innocent is bad BECAUSE it takes from them their life. This is an absurd claim.

Of course, killing an innocent person is bad because it results in the consequence of taking from them something most precious – their very life. It is bad BECAUSE of the bad consequence. If “killing” someone automatically made them turn into a new being with exactly two times the capacity, creativity and moral goodness they had before, killing them would not be a bad thing, it would become a good thing.

Of course, things are bad because of their consequences, the real problem is properly connecting the consequences to the appropriate teleological end goods, which requires (as Dr. Mirus points out) two key features…
  1. the ability to see all of the consequences
  2. the ability to truly judge these consequences as good or evil according to the moral standard provided by true knowledge of the essential teleology built into what things are and why things are the way they are.
Essentially, this means consequentialism is putting the cart before the horse – it proposes judging the goodness and badness of things without reference to the goodness and badness built into the teleology of why things exist in the first place. Absent that knowledge, human beings are merely haphazardly assigning moral goodness or badness based upon consequences that are completely disconnected from and not founded upon the essential teleology built into the very nature of what things are. Making those connections would mean to provide a sound understanding of the essential nature of all things, including Aristotle’s final causality which provides the foundation for why things do exist or how they ought to exist in the first place.

Consequentialism doesn’t provide that framework, it merely assumes it, which is why it doesn’t work – it is incomplete but is blithely unaware of what is missing in its view of morality.

I would submit that it is your lack of comprehending this fact that causes you to assume consequentialism is the same as a robust teleological explanation of morality. You continue to conflate the two assuming you see the entire picture to begin with.

Ask yourself why you would suppose any act is good or bad. If your only answer is “It just is,” then I would suggest you are missing entirely the question of Why? or, at least, don’t see it as a valid one, morally speaking. Sounds like secular blindness to me.
 
Killing in self defence is fine (if that is the only option). Defending in a just war is fine, if killing is the only option. But we are talking about executing someone who is already in custody (he is obviously in custody or else he could not be killed).
No, killing a human being is always evil but it is not intrinsically evil. Saving one’s own life or the lives of others is good. If executing the prisoner does not protect life then the state ought not execute.

I believe that a convict who is in adequate custody should not be executed by the state. The adequacy of confinement as sufficient to protect society from further violence is a matter of prudential judgment. I agree with Pope Francis. Others may disagree. There’s room in the pew for all of us. Being Catholic does not mean we must agree on all matters of prudence. See:
Catholicism & Capital Punishment
by Avery Cardinal Dulles April 2001
firstthings.com/article/2001/04/catholicism-amp-capital-punishment
Capital Punishment: The Case for Justice
by J. Budziszewski August 2004
firstthings.com/article/2004/08/capital-punishment-the-case-for-justice
Retributive Justice and Capital Punishment
by Stephen M. Barr June 2010
firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/06/retributive-justice-and-capital-punishment
If we execute him, it may serve two purposes. Justice in the form of retribution and protection of society if there is a likelihood that he will reoffend (plus it would act as a deterrent to others).
Or we may execute an innocent person.

Cardinal Dulles gives us 4 cogent arguments against the death penalty: (1) Sometimes innocent people are sentenced to death. (2) Capital punishment whets the lust for revenge rather than satisfying the zeal for true justice. (3) It cheapens the value of life. (4) And it contradicts Christ’s teaching to forgive. Budziszewski argues that the primary purpose is retribution – requiting evil – and that the good Cardinal’s list are important but secondary to capital punishment’s primary purpose.
What if we capture enemy soldiers? It would have been fine to kill them in a just war or as a matter of self defence. But if the argument runs that a society that cannot afford to incarcerate a man convicted of murder may execute him (the most fatuous argument that I have heard for quite some time, and I’ve heard a few zingers), then what is to stop us executing the prisoners if we cannot secure them? The only other choice would be to let them go and have them kill members of your side.
I think a country whose GDP is 17 trillion dollars cannot make an economic argument for capital punishment because it underfunds its penal system to adequately house its prisoners.

In a just war, the killing of captured soldiers who are docile is always murder. If the prisoners cannot be secured then I think they must be released after being neutralized as much as morally possible from returning to the battlefield as hostiles.
And that isn’t relativism? If I had written that, half the posters on this thad would have jumped down my throat. As the pope said, it is ALWAYS wrong. Do you think he might say: ‘Well, fair enough…I really meant in modern times. Back then it would have been OK’.
Disagreeing on matters of prudence does not make morality relative. Killing a human being is always evil but sometimes permissible as an acceptable evil if offset by an equal or greater good. You know the principles of the double effect – apply them in 50 AD or 2000 AD and the morality remains constant not relative.
I wonder if there might be a date or a place at which it becomes categorically wrong. Could you suggest any? Maybe France at any time or maybe Rome in 200 AD?
Could you? Are you not willing to defend to the death the life of your wife from an assailant?
Quite bizarre.
Rather, Catholicism is quite reasonable.
 
Killing in self defence is fine (if that is the only option). Defending in a just war is fine, if killing is the only option…
the problem is that the concepts of self-defense, only option, and just war are all fuzzy and subject to prudential judgement. For example, was Gavrilo Princepo justified in killing Archduke Ferdinand because Austria had annexed the south slav territories which some Serbs thought was an act of war. Or there were a group of Roman Catholics who planned to assassinate Hitler and believed it was morally justified to do so.
 
the problem is that the concepts of self-defense, only option, and just war are all fuzzy and subject to prudential judgement. For example, was Gavrilo Princepo justified in killing Archduke Ferdinand because Austria had annexed the south slav territories which some Serbs thought was an act of war. Or there were a group of Roman Catholics who planned to assassinate Hitler and believed it was morally justified to do so.
A major part of the “fuzziness” is due to the fact that you or I are not privy to a great many of the critical features of both events that would make their moral implications less fuzzy.

Perhaps the conspirators in the attempt to kill Hitler knew things which would have given them moral certainty in a way that the lack of such knowledge keeps you and I a bit fuzzy. In any case, we are not the agents who will be held responsible for their actions, they will be, and God is sufficiently competent to judge their actions. We are not.

Likewise each of us will face moral decisions which will test our capacities to be moral. I would be more concerned about letting such fuzziness interefere with the things I am responsible for than pretending to have the competency to judge others facing desperate situations or moral trials of their own.

Whether or not I can deliver a less than fuzzy verdict on the actions of others concerns me far less than my ability to be responsible for the moral obligations which face me each day. I am far bett off putting my energies into sorting out my own moral life than laying down judgements about the decisions of others facing far more dire circumstances than I have ever had to stare down.
 
Whether or not I can deliver a less than fuzzy verdict on the actions of others concerns me far less than my ability to be responsible for the moral obligations which face me each day…
Catholics who joined the army or navy were faced with the overwhelming opinion that the war in Iraq was an unjust war. They had to decide whether the war was unjust or not because, as I understand it to be, it is wrong to kill in an unjust war. A mortal sin of murder is displeasing to God and can send a person to eternal damnation in hell.
Jehovah’s Witnesses simply refuse to fight in war, given the possibility that the war was unjust in some sense.
 
Catholics who joined the army or navy were faced with the overwhelming opinion that the war in Iraq was an unjust war. They had to decide whether the war was unjust or not because, as I understand it to be, it is wrong to kill in an unjust war. A mortal sin of murder is displeasing to God and can send a person to eternal damnation in hell.
Jehovah’s Witnesses simply refuse to fight in war, given the possibility that the war was unjust in some sense.
It may – depending upon the circumstances – be possible that a greater injustice would be done by refusing to fight than choosing to fight. Merely refraining from doing something is not always nor necessarily the correct moral response. There are sins of omission as well as sins of commission.

As Aristotle pointed out, the virtue of courage (like all virtues) lies between cowardice (a failure to act when one should) and brashness (acting when one should show restraint.)

Always choosing not to take part in a war does not necessarily make you a virtuous person. The critical determinant is taking part when one should and not taking part when one shouldn’t. The fact that making such a determination is not crystal clear in all instances does not entail that a blanket refusal is always the correct moral option.
 
It may – depending upon the circumstances – be possible that a greater injustice would be done by refusing to fight than choosing to fight. Merely refraining from doing something is not always nor necessarily the correct moral response. There are sins of omission as well as sins of commission.

As Aristotle pointed out, the virtue of courage (like all virtues) lies between cowardice (a failure to act when one should) and brashness (acting when one should show restraint.)

Always choosing not to take part in a war does not necessarily make you a virtuous person. The critical determinant is taking part when one should and not taking part when one shouldn’t. The fact that making such a determination is not crystal clear in all instances does not entail that a blanket refusal is always the correct moral option.
Not true according to the pacifist POV. Pacifists will say that by engaging in war you are rejecting the teaching of Our Divine Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who commanded us to love our neighbor, to love our enemies and to turn the other cheek.
Matthew 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who mistreat you, and persecute you;
Many people will follow the commands of Our Lord Jesus Christ and refuse to participate in war.
The horrible human costs of war, in terms of suffering and death, not only to the enemy, but to civilian innocent children and adults, are so huge and substantial, that it is always better to resolve conflicts peacefully, with charity and with good will. Further, there is a push to war by a corrupt and venal military industrial complex, which oftentimes ends up profiting from human misery.
 
Disagreeing on matters of prudence does not make morality relative. Killing a human being is always evil but sometimes permissible as an acceptable evil if offset by an equal or greater good.
I think that you guys are tying yourself up in knots here.

Killing someone would be evil, but permissible if offset by a greater good. But tossing a guy out of a lifeboat, which fills those criteria is not allowed.

Capital punishment is always wrong (at least according to the Pope), but it depends on where and when. And that isn’t relative?

Rich societies can lock murderers up, but poor ones would be justified in killing them.

Capital punishment is wrong because someone innocent may die, yet a justified war in which it is guaranteed that innocent people will die is fine.

A murderer who claims to have repented cannot be freed but will still be executed but a soldier who is captured and will definitely try to kill you and your colleagues again if released, should be released.

I’m going to have a lie down for a few minutes to see if my head will stop spinning.
 
I think that you guys are tying yourself up in knots here.

Killing someone would be evil, but permissible if offset by a greater good.
Nope.

Not “if offset by a greater good”.

Only “if this guy is attacking you or your family”.

And your intention shouldn’t be to kill the guy, but rather to stop him from attacking what you have the right to defend.
But tossing a guy out of a lifeboat, which fills those criteria is not allowed.
It does not fill those criteria.
Capital punishment is always wrong (at least according to the Pope), but it depends on where and when. And that isn’t relative?
Yes, some things are relative in the moral world.

We’ve already had this discussion.
 
Not true according to the pacifist POV. Pacifists will say that by engaging in war you are rejecting the teaching of Our Divine Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who commanded us to love our neighbor, to love our enemies and to turn the other cheek.
Matthew 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who mistreat you, and persecute you;
Many people will follow the commands of Our Lord Jesus Christ and refuse to participate in war.
The horrible human costs of war, in terms of suffering and death, not only to the enemy, but to civilian innocent children and adults, are so huge and substantial, that it is always better to resolve conflicts peacefully, with charity and with good will. Further, there is a push to war by a corrupt and venal military industrial complex, which oftentimes ends up profiting from human misery.
And this is why pacifism is a failed ideology.

Our Lord and Saviour may have taught us to turn our own other cheek, but no where does he teach us to permit vicious attacks on our children and the vulnerable in our midst. No where is it written, “But I say unto you if someone kills or rapes one of your children, offer to them your other children.” Did he?
 
After the pope speaks ex cathedra, all else is merely commentary. In Veritas Splendor, the pope explains where and how consequentialism fails as a moral system: a failure to recognize some acts are always and everywhere evil in their object.
Then we’re agreed that Catholics usually argue against consequentialism.
I think you confuse condone with condemn. That a practice or act is not condemned does not necessarily condone the same. (An acquittal is not a verdict of innocent.) Slavery, unlike capital punishment, is not condoned in scripture.
Now you’ve put words in my mouth, I never said anything about condoning or condemning.
Not silly; just need to know more about Catholic teaching.
As neither capital punishment nor slavery are specifically abolished in scripture, if capital punishment is good in some circumstances then logically slavery must also be good in some circumstances. But I think the Church teaches that neither is ever a moral good.
 
I would submit that it is your lack of comprehending this fact that causes you to assume consequentialism is the same as a robust teleological explanation of morality. You continue to conflate the two assuming you see the entire picture to begin with.

Ask yourself why you would suppose any act is good or bad. If your only answer is “It just is,” then I would suggest you are missing entirely the question of Why? or, at least, don’t see it as a valid one, morally speaking. Sounds like secular blindness to me.
You argued for consequentialism in post #301. You said “The principle is the same: protect the innocent from unnecessary harm wherever possible”. That was your only principle, your only concern was “protecting the innocent against unprovoked or unjust harm”. That’s consequentialism, since it considers only the consequences.

According to your principle, euthanizing someone with a painful terminal illness would be a moral good, since they are going to die soon anyway and it protects “the innocent from unnecessary harm wherever possible”. That’s not what your Church teaches, so obviously consequentialism is defective.

You only referred to the article I linked, and then made another very complicated argument (omitted here), as if this is also new to you. Imho ethics shouldn’t involve long complicated arguments, it should be founded on arguments anyone can understand.

Capital punishment is self-evidently cruel since it torments its victim. It is self-evidently inhuman since it lacks all compassion and mercy for its victim. It is self-evidently playing God since we’re all God’s children, we belong to God alone. Therefore capital punishment is never a moral good. It’s never a virtue to kill another human being, but may be justified.
 
I think that you guys are tying yourself up in knots here.
The hypothetical moral dilemmas you guys have proposed are the knots. We’re trying to undo these unnatural knots for you. The common unreal condition for all the moral dilemmas proposed is that the moral actors know the future with certainty, i.e. if the person leaves the lifeboat, he/she dies, if the trolley car is not sidetracked, five die. No one knows the future with certainty but we have played along with these unreal hypotheticals and now you say we are the ones tying ourselves in knots.
Killing someone would be evil, but permissible if offset by a greater good. But tossing a guy out of a lifeboat, which fills those criteria is not allowed.
I have posted that removing a person from the lifeboat is permissible but certainly not virtuous. The act of removing one from the lifeboat is not intrinsically evil but morally neutral – although in your unreal hypothetical the sharks certainly and immediately gobble him up. The lives saved (also predicted with certainty) are a greater good than the evil loss of one life, the removal of the one by lightening the boat saves the others but their safety is not brought about by his death. The survivors intend the good and tolerate the evil effect.
Capital punishment is always wrong (at least according to the Pope), but it depends on where and when. And that isn’t relative?
Our Pope is a human being entitled to his opinion, our Pope is the Bishop of Rome obligated to teach his flock, our Pope when speaking ex cathedra on matters of faith and morals is gifted by the Holy Spirit with a special prophetic charisma – he cannot be in error. He has not invoked his special charisma on the morality of the death penalty. But isn’t it nice to have someone in charge who has the Holy Spirit guiding him? Christ thought so.
Rich societies can lock murderers up, but poor ones would be justified in killing them.
Societies which have the means, technology and resources, can (and I say should) lock up murderers. Rulers of nomadic societies wandering in the desert looking for the promised-land, living off manna are obligated to maintain civil order and may execute criminals.
Capital punishment is wrong because someone innocent may die, yet a justified war in which it is guaranteed that innocent people will die is fine.
Incarcerating for life an innocent man is wrong so what’s your point – our justice system is fallible? I agree. There we go with that certain knowledge again. Civilian casualties in a just war are to be avoided. That some will die is probable and evil. The alternative, rulers who fail to defend against an unjust war that is winnable, is a greater evil.
A murderer who claims to have repented cannot be freed but will still be executed but a soldier who is captured and will definitely try to kill you and your colleagues again if released, should be released.
Repentant murderers are freed. There we go with that certain knowledge. How do you know now that the captured “will definitely try to kill you and your colleagues again.”
I’m going to have a lie down for a few minutes to see if my head will stop spinning.
Have a nice nap. Be sure and lock your doors so you don’t face the moral dilemma of taking another life to save your own.
As the old saying goes in making investment decisions in uncertainty: spend your money, take your chances. Welcome to the world of moral uncertainty. One does the best they can with what they know at the time, then relax and trust that an all-loving God will understand and still work out your salvation if you are willing.
 
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