B
bear06
Guest
Who’s the “them”? On the surface I’d say we agree. This is actually the tactic we’ve taken in our diocese, I think.
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CatholicCrusade
Guest
I am a firm supporter of the Traditional Mass, and I am also firmly AGAINST the use of the Novus ordo, but this thread is seriously sickening. I don’t see how people (on both sides, and in between) can be so uncharitable. I see the two who have done the most have been suspended, but I think this thread should be closed. I have read about halfway, and all it is is bickering back and forth.
Moreover, it the author of this thread is clearly making calumnous statements of the Mass as it was celebrated for over 1300 years, and there is no need to discuss such a sinful topic.
Moreover, it the author of this thread is clearly making calumnous statements of the Mass as it was celebrated for over 1300 years, and there is no need to discuss such a sinful topic.
T
TNT
Guest
**http://www.tldm.org/News5/CardinalMaida1.jpg
Fr. Fessio, S.J. believes that even worse than the sex-abuse scandal is the spiritual abuse of the Catholic faithful, which he defines as the widespread failure by American Catholic Church leaders to teach and defend Catholic truth. Fr. Fessio says, “What we are seeing today is a crisis in fidelity to Catholic truth: in accepting that truth on the part of the faithful and the priests, and on enforcing and defending that truth on the part of Bishops."
How is it that the pro-abortion “Catholic” Jennifer Granholm continues to escape condemnation of Detroit’s Cardinal Maida?
The Holy Father cites as an error a view held by pro-abort Jennifer Granholm, that a “politician, in his or her activity, should clearly separate the realm of private conscience from that of public conduct.” (Evangelium Vitae, #69). He also points out that popular consensus will never determine what is good or what is evil, and furthermore states that Catholics may not obey an unjust law (such as the permitting of abortion on demand in the United States): “In the case of an intrinsically unjust law, such as a law permitting abortion or euthanasia, it is therefore never licit to obey it, or to ‘take part in a propaganda campaign in favor of such a law, or vote for it.” (Evangelium Vitae, #73)
In 2000, Bishop James T. McHugh of Rockville Center, Long Island, New York, sent a letter to all the priests in his diocese laying out a policy banning pro-abortion politicians from the premises of Catholic institutions in the diocese. In his September 21, 2000 letter, Bishop McHugh wrote: “The policy… means that no pro-abortion public official or candidate is to be invited to address Catholic agencies or organizations, school or parish groups, even if he/she does not intend to express their pro-abortion views.” The bishop explains, "The reason for this is that it would be foolish and counterproductive to provide a platform to those who favor or support a public policy of abortion on demand or of euthanasia or assisted suicide. It would also be extremely misleading to provide such persons a platform to promote their views, even on other issues, lest they claim that the Church somehow implicitly tolerates their rejection of Church teaching on pro-life issues."
NEW ZEALAND BISHOPS CONTRADICT POPE ON HOMOSEXUAL UNIONS
lifesite.net/ldn/2000/apr/00042602.html
WELLINGTON, NZ, April 26 (LSN.ca) - The New Zealand Catholic Bishops’ Conference (NZCBC) has caused scandal in the Catholic world by directly contradicting Pope John Paul II on homosexual unions. The NZ Catholic, the country’s Catholic newspaper, reported Sunday that the 10 members of the NZCBC submitted a report to the NZ Ministry of Justice supporting a system of registration for practicing homosexual couples. The system would “give same-sex couples access to certain legal rights and benefits available to married couples,” according to the Catholic paper.
Continued:
**
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TNT
Guest
lifesite.net/ldn/2000/oct/001016a.html
Of these seven, the top five came from overtly pro-abortion, pro-lesbian groups. They were Terri Brown, president of the National Action Committee on the Status of Women, Nancy Riche of the Canadian Labour Congress, Jen Anthony of the Canadian Federation of Students, Vivian Barbot-Limburger of the Federation des Femmes du Quebec, and Andree Cote of the Nat’l Assoc. of Women and the Law.
Bob Harvey of the Ottawa Citizen reports that six Catholic Bishops participated in a Mass for the feminist march at Notre Dame Cathedral. The bishops included Ottawa Archbishop** Marcel Gervais**, Calgary Bishop Fred Henry, London Bishop John Sherlock, Moncton’s Bishop Ernest Leger, Edmonston NB’s Bishop Francois Thibodeau, and Sault Ste Marie’s Paul-Andre Durocher. The Citizen reports that Bishop Gervais had intended to join in the march but police warned him that it would be unsafe.
Outside the cathedral a few Catholic pro-life protesters held signs reading “Reject Feminist Supremacy.” During his remarks in the church, the Citizen reports that Gervais told the packed audience to “smile at their fellow Catholics as they ran the gauntlet of anti-march protesters.” A group of seven from a local area parish held a pro-life banner in the march and also proclaimed the same message in the air with a plane flying overhead carrying the banner, “Stop violence from womb to tomb.”
Cardinal Kasper Raised by JPII
cardinalrating.com/cardinal_45__article_76.htm
Less known is Kasper’s public renunciation of the Catholic doctrine of the Apostolic Succession. The latest Kasper heresy came in an address filled with theological errors that he delivered to a Catholic-Anglican conference in late May 2003. In this address Kasper proclaimed, among other outrages, that “Jesus was well aware… that his disciples would not be one, and that they would be dispersed” and that “The unity of the Church can be accomplished only by a renewed Pentecost…”
One Holy Catholic and Apostolic…bye bye
After denying the unity of the Church, Kasper declared that “unity” between Catholics and Anglicans is “not a question of apostolic succession in the sense of an historical chain of laying on of hands running back through the centuries to one of the apostles — this would be a very mechanical and individualistic vision, which, by the way, historically could hardly be proved and ascertained.”
In denying the Apostolic Succession in its correct Catholic sense and replacing it with a vague, present-day “communion of faith,” the Pope’s man in the field of “Christian unity” is clearly paving the way for what he hopes will be a post-John Paul II circumvention of the infallible declaration of Pope Leo XIII in Apostolicae Curae (1896) that the Anglicans broke the Apostolic Succession by adopting an invalid ordination rite.
“It is beyond the scope of our present context to discuss what this means for a re-evaluation of Apostolicae Curae of Pope Leo XIII, who declared Anglican orders null and void, a decision that still stands between our Churches. Without doubt, this decision, as Cardinal Willebrands had already affirmed, must be understood in our new ecumenical context in which our communion in faith and mission has considerably grown.”
Leo XIII bye bye
“[T]he historical conditionality of the dogma of the First Vatican Council (1869/70)… must be distinguished from its remaining obligatory content.”
VAT I bye bye
I could blow up this forum with all the heretics in the church and those who pander or turn a blind eye to it.
The Pope has given the red hat to a man who publicly proclaims infallible dogmas to be historically conditional.
That is promoting it and pandering to it.
Of these seven, the top five came from overtly pro-abortion, pro-lesbian groups. They were Terri Brown, president of the National Action Committee on the Status of Women, Nancy Riche of the Canadian Labour Congress, Jen Anthony of the Canadian Federation of Students, Vivian Barbot-Limburger of the Federation des Femmes du Quebec, and Andree Cote of the Nat’l Assoc. of Women and the Law.
Bob Harvey of the Ottawa Citizen reports that six Catholic Bishops participated in a Mass for the feminist march at Notre Dame Cathedral. The bishops included Ottawa Archbishop** Marcel Gervais**, Calgary Bishop Fred Henry, London Bishop John Sherlock, Moncton’s Bishop Ernest Leger, Edmonston NB’s Bishop Francois Thibodeau, and Sault Ste Marie’s Paul-Andre Durocher. The Citizen reports that Bishop Gervais had intended to join in the march but police warned him that it would be unsafe.
Outside the cathedral a few Catholic pro-life protesters held signs reading “Reject Feminist Supremacy.” During his remarks in the church, the Citizen reports that Gervais told the packed audience to “smile at their fellow Catholics as they ran the gauntlet of anti-march protesters.” A group of seven from a local area parish held a pro-life banner in the march and also proclaimed the same message in the air with a plane flying overhead carrying the banner, “Stop violence from womb to tomb.”
Cardinal Kasper Raised by JPII
cardinalrating.com/cardinal_45__article_76.htm
Less known is Kasper’s public renunciation of the Catholic doctrine of the Apostolic Succession. The latest Kasper heresy came in an address filled with theological errors that he delivered to a Catholic-Anglican conference in late May 2003. In this address Kasper proclaimed, among other outrages, that “Jesus was well aware… that his disciples would not be one, and that they would be dispersed” and that “The unity of the Church can be accomplished only by a renewed Pentecost…”
One Holy Catholic and Apostolic…bye bye
After denying the unity of the Church, Kasper declared that “unity” between Catholics and Anglicans is “not a question of apostolic succession in the sense of an historical chain of laying on of hands running back through the centuries to one of the apostles — this would be a very mechanical and individualistic vision, which, by the way, historically could hardly be proved and ascertained.”
In denying the Apostolic Succession in its correct Catholic sense and replacing it with a vague, present-day “communion of faith,” the Pope’s man in the field of “Christian unity” is clearly paving the way for what he hopes will be a post-John Paul II circumvention of the infallible declaration of Pope Leo XIII in Apostolicae Curae (1896) that the Anglicans broke the Apostolic Succession by adopting an invalid ordination rite.
“It is beyond the scope of our present context to discuss what this means for a re-evaluation of Apostolicae Curae of Pope Leo XIII, who declared Anglican orders null and void, a decision that still stands between our Churches. Without doubt, this decision, as Cardinal Willebrands had already affirmed, must be understood in our new ecumenical context in which our communion in faith and mission has considerably grown.”
Leo XIII bye bye
“[T]he historical conditionality of the dogma of the First Vatican Council (1869/70)… must be distinguished from its remaining obligatory content.”
VAT I bye bye
I could blow up this forum with all the heretics in the church and those who pander or turn a blind eye to it.
The Pope has given the red hat to a man who publicly proclaims infallible dogmas to be historically conditional.
That is promoting it and pandering to it.
T
TNT
Guest
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Cardinal Willebrands
“Has not the Second Vatican Council itself accepted the requirements expressed amongst others by Luther and through which quite a few aspects of the Christian Faith are being expressed better today than in the past? Luther has in an extraordinary way made a new starting point for theology and Christian life for the times coming.”
God have Mercy on us.
Trent Bye Bye
For a brief profile of every Cardinal that JPII has raised see:
cardinalrating.com/sort_alphabetic.htm
Enough already.
Cardinal Willebrands
“Has not the Second Vatican Council itself accepted the requirements expressed amongst others by Luther and through which quite a few aspects of the Christian Faith are being expressed better today than in the past? Luther has in an extraordinary way made a new starting point for theology and Christian life for the times coming.”
God have Mercy on us.
Trent Bye Bye
For a brief profile of every Cardinal that JPII has raised see:
cardinalrating.com/sort_alphabetic.htm
Enough already.
T
TNT
Guest
Whooo!
We are only 2/3 thru our sensitivity training. We’re try’in. Have patience, and charity with us, please.
I’m headed straight for that thread (hopefully started by you) that says:
"No variance of opinion, no defense allowed against my opinion…"or something like that.
Now that would close a thread…boredom.
If you read the last 30 posts I think you will see that we avoid AD Hominim. It was our lesson this week in sensitivity training…That’s progress.
P
pnewton
Guest
If you need more sensitivity training, I have a three tape series. Email me forty dollars.
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TNT
Guest
LOL!
Get some sleep.
Meet my sensitivity trainer:
http://www.geocities.com/shangrala_shangy/germanshepard.gif
She makes everyone around her sensitive to her and me. I don’t know where she gets that charism!
M
misericordie
Guest
Amen.
O
OrthoCath
Guest
Franciscum,
You failed in so many ways. First the liturgy is a living thing, which grows and matures. I think many people think the early church was some kind of panacea for which we must all strive. The reason for Liturgical development was for just that to develop a liturgy. Christianity started a new and did not have much to base itself with regards to liturgy. After all, we are nothing more than an Ex-Communicated Jewish sect.
Naturally, the earliest Christians continued to go into Synagogues and practiced temple worship. Once they go kicked out they had to develop their own styles of worship. I used the word “develop” to illustrate a point. Even in the days of the Apostles the Liturgy was developing. In the West (Latin) Church the final product of this development was the Traditional Latin Mass. Like a Child, which grows up to, an adult so did the Liturgy.
Putting that issue aside I will go ahead and entertain your thread by providing information to contradict your theory, which the Novus Ordo is, a panacea for early Christian Liturgy. Your first mistake was to only look at the Liturgical movement in the West (Latin) and not focus on the East. The Liturgy of St. John Chrystodom which is used by many Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic is a shorten version of the Liturgy of Saint Basil which dates to around 300 A.D. The Liturgy of Saint Basil is a spin off of the Liturgy of Saint James which is estimated it’s beginnings around 100 A.D. In neither of these liturgical movements did communion in hand become an option.
Let’s focus the earliest liturgical movement that of the Apostles themselves. One key element in Jewish Liturgies is the practice of facing East. This practice is still used today.
Now, let’s talk about the vernacular. You are correct when you stated the earliest Christian Liturgies were said in the vernacular. However, you miss one key element and that is Hebrew. For centuries Hebrew was no longer spoken by the Jewish people, yet they manage to keep it alive. Thus today, Latin is no longer vernacular and neither is ancient Greek yet both are keep alive in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.
I could go on and on but I am tired of typing. I think my point is this, don’t be so quick to make bold statements. Remember the Church is 2,000 years old. Liturgy fades have come and gone. Perhaps the Novus Ordo is just that. We don’t know but we do know the Traditional Latin Mass is very ancient going back before the Galician Liturgy. To suppress it would only be doing the Church a great disservice.
Yours In Christ!
You failed in so many ways. First the liturgy is a living thing, which grows and matures. I think many people think the early church was some kind of panacea for which we must all strive. The reason for Liturgical development was for just that to develop a liturgy. Christianity started a new and did not have much to base itself with regards to liturgy. After all, we are nothing more than an Ex-Communicated Jewish sect.
Naturally, the earliest Christians continued to go into Synagogues and practiced temple worship. Once they go kicked out they had to develop their own styles of worship. I used the word “develop” to illustrate a point. Even in the days of the Apostles the Liturgy was developing. In the West (Latin) Church the final product of this development was the Traditional Latin Mass. Like a Child, which grows up to, an adult so did the Liturgy.
Putting that issue aside I will go ahead and entertain your thread by providing information to contradict your theory, which the Novus Ordo is, a panacea for early Christian Liturgy. Your first mistake was to only look at the Liturgical movement in the West (Latin) and not focus on the East. The Liturgy of St. John Chrystodom which is used by many Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic is a shorten version of the Liturgy of Saint Basil which dates to around 300 A.D. The Liturgy of Saint Basil is a spin off of the Liturgy of Saint James which is estimated it’s beginnings around 100 A.D. In neither of these liturgical movements did communion in hand become an option.
Let’s focus the earliest liturgical movement that of the Apostles themselves. One key element in Jewish Liturgies is the practice of facing East. This practice is still used today.
Now, let’s talk about the vernacular. You are correct when you stated the earliest Christian Liturgies were said in the vernacular. However, you miss one key element and that is Hebrew. For centuries Hebrew was no longer spoken by the Jewish people, yet they manage to keep it alive. Thus today, Latin is no longer vernacular and neither is ancient Greek yet both are keep alive in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.
I could go on and on but I am tired of typing. I think my point is this, don’t be so quick to make bold statements. Remember the Church is 2,000 years old. Liturgy fades have come and gone. Perhaps the Novus Ordo is just that. We don’t know but we do know the Traditional Latin Mass is very ancient going back before the Galician Liturgy. To suppress it would only be doing the Church a great disservice.
Yours In Christ!
M
Marines
Guest
Are you talking about Willebrands?
Well, the topic kind of changed to a Latin Mass vs. Novus Ordo after about five posts. Heck, 75% of the topics on the Liturgy forum do that.
- Joe
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TNT
Guest
No. Kasper See post item just below “Leo XIII bye bye”
- Status