NON-traditional Tridentine Mass?

[Munda_cor_meum]

katherine2:

These six gentlemen were (along with some Orthodox brethern) the ecumencial observers at the Council. None of them every claimed to write a word of the Mass nor has any member of the Council.

So other than a made up lie, what’s the source for this claim?

This sort of begs the question “Why were they there at all?”. Seriously, you seem to be suggesting that these six men did not materially participate at all in the development of the new liturgy.

If that is the case, what was the point of them being there? Do you really think that they were “neutral observers” there just to satisfy their own curiosity?

What is more likely is that they were consulted by the actual authors to ensure that the Mass met their “approval”. Again, what’s the point? Why do you (if, in fact you do) or anyone else find it necessary that a Baptist approve Catholic doctrine?

 

[bear06]

Pnewton,
Novus Ordo worship service was written in the 1960s by Archbishop Annibale Bugnini (who has been linked to freemasonry) and six Protestant ministers(The six were Dr. George, Canon Jasper, Dr. Shepherd, Dr. Kunneth, Dr. Smith, and Brother Max Thurian, representing respectively the World Council of Churches, the Anglican and Lutheran communions, and the French Protestant Taize community.)

Please listen to this tape series. This is not accurate.
saintjoe.com/p/prod_desc.pl?id=388

 

[TNT]

katherine2:

These six gentlemen…None of them every claimed to write a word of the Mass nor has any member of the Council… what’s the source for this claim?

#1:
In 1967, Cardinal W. W. Baum, who was executive director of the American Catholic Bishop’s Commission on Ecumenical Affairs, admitted in the June 27, issue of The Detroit News:

“They (the six Protestant ministers) are not simply there as observers, but as consultants as well, and they participate fully in the discussions on Catholic liturgical renewal. It wouldn’t mean much if they just listened, but they contributed.”

#2:
December 22, 1972 issue of The London Catholic Herald quoted a prominent Anglican minister as stating:

“Today’s liturgical study has brought our respective liturgies to a remarkable similarity, so that there is very little difference in the sacrificial phrasing of the prayer of oblation in the Series Three (Anglican “Mass”) and that of Eucharistic Prayer II in the Missa Normativa (New “Mass”)”

#3:
M. G. Siegvalt, a professor of dogmatic theology in the Protestant faculty at Strasbourg:

"… nothing in the renewed Catholic Mass need really trouble the Evangelical Protestant "( Le Monde, 22 November, 1969).

#4:
Jean Guitton, a close friend of Pope Paul VI and a lay-observer at Vatican II, quoted a Protestant journal as praising the manner in which the new Eucharistic prayers had :

**“dropped the false perspective of a sacrifice being offered to God” (La Croix, 10 December, 1969). **

Ouch!!
#5

“If one takes account of the decisive evolution of the Eucharistic liturgy of the Catholic Church, of the option of substituting other Eucharistic prayers for the Canon of the Mass, of expunging (l’ effacement) of the idea that the Mass is a sacrifice, and of the possibility of receiving communion under both kinds, then there is no further justification for the Reformed Churches forbidding their members to assist at the Eucharist in a Catholic Church” (Le Monde, 10 September, 1970).

If it’s closer to Prot acceptance, then it is further from Roman Catholic. For the 2 are mutually exclusive regarding the SACRIFICE of the Mass.

 

[TNT]

bear06
Please listen to this tape series. This is not accurate.
saintjoe.com/p/prod_desc.pl?id=388

Ok, are you telling us that on the entire World Wide Web that there is only one place to get the REAL scoop, and that is a $25.00 Set of 3 tapes??
This is it? NOWHERE else?

Surely, news that enlightening and convincing must have leaked out somewhere!
Can you give us ANYWHERE else on the WWW?
I just gotta know before I fork over $25.00 (incl shipping) that this is sure to do the trick to the exclusion of ALL other WWW sites.

 

[bear06]

TNT:

Ok, are you telling us that on the entire World Wide Web that there is only one place to get the REAL scoop, and that is a $25.00 Set of 3 tapes??
This is it? NOWHERE else?

Surely, news that enlightening and convincing must have leaked out somewhere!
Can you give us ANYWHERE else on the WWW?
I just gotta know before I fork over $25.00 (incl shipping) that this is sure to do the trick to the exclusion of ALL other WWW sites.

I like this tape series because it was from someone who was actually there, not just someone who’s coming out with comments with no first hand knowledge. The abbot is not a fan of Bugnini but shows him for what he was, not some wild conspiracy theorist point of view. The abbot was also on the coucil (can’t remember if this is the accurate term) which was to take what came from the council and apply it to the Mass. He shows what happened to what was intended and what happened and why it happened. There are bits and pieces on the WWW but this is one place that people can go to find it all in one place. Why don’t you google the abbot’s name. Maybe you’ll find something for free!

 

[terrcatholic]

Not only was Bugnini a free mason, and this has been proven when the Freemason list was published in Italy sometime in the 1970’s , who was fired by not one, but two Popes, and then later exiled to Iran. The Vatican to this day will not answer any questions on Bugnini. Next, it is also a fact the Pope John XXIII was a freemason, as he became one in 1935 when in Turkey, if I remember correctly the country. This is factual and has never been denied. One thing that can be said is that the Traditional Mass was instituted by a Saint in Pius V, and with prayers that were passed down since the 3rd century untampered with for the most part, while the Novus Ordo mass was made by Modernists with sketchy pasts, possibly Mason ties, and Protestants. I try to get to the TLM but none are given here in NY, as they are BANNED here, and the only group that gets any play in NY is the Voice of the Faithful, who are a left wing Catholic Organization. Hard to be a follower these days and not resort to going to a St Pius V or X chapel every so often to feel the reverence we had once again and seeing people kneeling, reflecting, and not some old lady or man going up and doing some reading while some priest who looks annoyed even to get up and do a reading from the Gospel. Sad

“linked to freemasonry” is not the same as being a Mason. You stated freemasons wrote part of what you called the New Mass. Now you say it was an Archbishop who wrote it.

 

[TNT]

bear06:

Why don’t you google the abbot’s name.
Maybe you’ll find something for free!

Ok, I’m off tto the GOOOgle of OZ. See you when I get back
OOPS, my Remnant just came. This may take a little longer. .

ps I did find out that he’s dead this past year.

 

[terrcatholic]

The man was fired by two Popes, dont even bother, he was a freemason and there have been legitimate books written about the council and not by right wing trads and conspircy theories, if you put together all of the facts, the throwing out of the mass and BANNING it, not pushing it off to the side, but banning it, the changing of the sacrements, the changing of the vestments, the modernizing of the churches, the lack of veneration for the saints and for our Lady, on and on, the mass and the church in its entirety was changed by people who were bent on destroying what we once had, and to make it more Protestant. It is a shame, I have seen protestant services and they are not to much different, dont know what these people had in mind. The confusion and lack of piety in todays youth not to mention the media for the church today is astonishing. There was a day when no non-Catholic would bash the church because they knew if the Pope said, go against this so and so, 95% of the Catholics would fall in line. Now, after V2 after “throwing open the windows of the church for all to look in-Pope John XXIII at V2”, when the Pope talks, people could care less. Today the Vatican quickly recanted a story which inferred they were bashing Israel for not helping the Tsunami victims. They are so worried about what all of the other faiths think of us now, but could care less about the faith of our own.

TNT:

Ok, I’m off tto the GOOOgle of OZ. See you when I get back .

 

[Munda_cor_meum]

terrcatholic:

I try to get to the TLM but none are given here in NY, as they are BANNED here,

What a sad state of affairs. Having to choose between a valid, but possibly illicit Mass and a possibly invalid but licit Mass.

 

[AmyS]

terrcatholic:

I try to get to the TLM but none are given here in NY, as they are BANNED here, and the only group that gets any play in NY is the Voice of the Faithful, who are a left wing Catholic Organization.

This web site says TLM is in NY?

latinmass.org/states/newyork.html

I don’t see any point in leaving one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church for SSPX or SSPV. That is just wrong. We need to bring the back. Not divide more.

 

[bear06]

Not only was Bugnini a free mason, and this has been proven when the Freemason list was published in Italy sometime in the 1970’s

I’m betting this publication is nowhere to be found. I’m not a Bugnini fan. I think he was basically a politician but other than the rad-Trad sites stating it was so, I have been able to find a site that can actually prove that Bugnini being a freemason was more than specualtion. All we have is rumor of a “dossier” and Bugnini’s constant denial of being a freemason.

Usually it’s only sedevacantists suggest John XXIII! I’m really shocked to see this here.

 

[bear06]

Today the Vatican quickly recanted a story which inferred they were bashing Israel for not helping the Tsunami victims. They are so worried about what all of the other faiths think of us now, but could care less about the faith of our own.

Uh, maybe they found out that Israel did offer money but many of the countries turned them down. I think it was an act of humility rather than one to please. Unlike many organizations, I think the Vatican would rather follow the truth than pride.

 

[pnewton]

Does anyone have any thing that shows that this Archbishop was a freemason when he wrote the Mass?

I find it about as credible as a Jack Chick conspiracy theory and would like to know if there is anything to it, especially in light of the fact that Masonry is anti-Catholic.

 

[otm]

jtnova:

Mr Franciscum

Liberal Catholics always, when hit with facts which they can not deny like a mass attendance that went from over 70% in 1962 to less than 15% today, He allowed a man like Annibele Bugnini, fired twice by two Popes to draft up the liturgy and throw out over 70% of the Mass. St Paul.

Maybe we are a fringe movement, with only 5-10% of Catholics attending the TLM,

Peace to you

If you are going to throw statistics around, you might try to be a little more consistent.

If only 15% of Catholics are attending Mass (a statistic that is more than 50% low), and 5-10% are attending the TLM, then 1/3 to 2/3s of the Masses must be TLM.

However, it is more likely that the number of TLM Masses is about 5% of all said in the U.S., which would put the number of Catholics attending a TLM at about 1 1/2% of all Catholics. And those numbers seem to be supported by the reality of what is going on in the churches.

 

[terrcatholic]

No I am no where near a sedavacationist, but there are some truths to what the trads say, and to call them radical is off line, I know many, some in my family and they believe strongly in the Church and the faith. And there is usually some truth to these kinds of things, the Vatican has not commented for over 40 years on this. And please dont throw the rad trad label around when someone throws a conservative view at you or anyone who has the liberal bend, kind of reminds me of OJ playing the race card and the like, not a good thing to do.

bear06:

I’m betting this publication is nowhere to be found. I’m not a Bugnini fan. I think he was basically a politician but other than the rad-Trad sites stating it was so, I have been able to find a site that can actually prove that Bugnini being a freemason was more than specualtion. All we have is rumor of a “dossier” and Bugnini’s constant denial of being a freemason.

Usually it’s only sedevacantists suggest John XXIII! I’m really shocked to see this here.

 

[misericordie]

alex_noel:

I am a fanatic defender of the Tridentine Mass, but I am aware that it didn’t exist in the early Church. It didn’t really develope until the time of St Gregory (in the 5th century?)

That doesn’t mean that we should discredit it.

I have honestly never really accepted the New Mass during most of my time as a Catholic, although of course it is valid and I have to attend it when I can’t get to the Old Rite

Actually in many of the Ancient under ground walls, in the catacombs’ walls,there are engravings of masses that show the priest facing east, and the people see only the priest’s back. Hummmm

 

[misericordie]

misericordie:

Actually in many of the Ancient under ground walls, in the catacombs’ walls,there are engravings of masses that show the priest facing east, and the people see only the priest’s back. Hummmm

LONG LIVE THE TRIDENTINE LATIN MASS!!!

 

[bear06]

terrcatholic:

No I am no where near a sedavacationist, but there are some truths to what the trads say, and to call them radical is off line, I know many, some in my family and they believe strongly in the Church and the faith. And there is usually some truth to these kinds of things, the Vatican has not commented for over 40 years on this. And please dont throw the rad trad label around when someone throws a conservative view at you or anyone who has the liberal bend, kind of reminds me of OJ playing the race card and the like, not a good thing to do.

I don’t believe I called you a rad-Trad. I believe I was talking about the pubications that carry this info. So, what’s your proof I’m liberal? It seems we’re back to someone doesn’t agree with you then they must be a member of CTA.

 

[Munda_cor_meum]

otm:

If you are going to throw statistics around, you might try to be a little more consistent…

You started out so well. Statistics are frequently mis-used, mis-understood and twisted.

Then you went on and mis-used them yourself

otm:

If If only 15% of Catholics are attending Mass (a statistic that is more than 50% low), and 5-10% are attending the TLM, then 1/3 to 2/3s of the Masses must be TLM. .

These “numbers” are not necessarily inconsistent. I do not know if they are correct, but they are not inconsistent.

I believe the 15% refers to regularly attending Catholics. More importantly, a Mass is offered whether there are communicants or not. So it is quite possible that these numbers are right on the mark.

Then you went ahead and offered your own opinions and desires but presented them as “statistical fact”

otm:

However, it is more likely that the number of TLM Masses is about 5% of all said in the U.S., which would put the number of Catholics attending a TLM at about 1 1/2% of all Catholics. And those numbers seem to be supported by the reality of what is going on in the churches.

 

[TNT]

bear06:

So, what’s your proof I’m liberal? It seems we’re back to someone doesn’t agree with you then they must be a member of CTA.

Actually, I think mama Bear is a closet Trad, a double agent even.
The defacto proof is the words of her favorite “3 tape series” which she constantly preaches.
Here is a set of qoutes from that series:
Abbot Boniface Luykx

Paul VI was …a weak man. He had great difficulty in taking a decision. For example, he had the New Order of the Mass on his desk for three years - three years! - before promulgating it. And he took many unusual decisions to avoid that final decision. And one of his decisions was inviting in the six Protestant theologians to review the document before publication to ensure that Protestant sensibilities would not be offended. And it was this decision that caused the greatest problems.
Paul approved the new Mass **because his advisors told him that the Protestants would come closer to the Catholic Church as a result. **
That was his main reason, because it really did take on some of the aspects of a Protestant service; that is why the Anglican and Lutherans and others are so favorable to the New Mass. And that was the way Paul wanted it. He had a vision of the Church re-uniting after centuries of bloodshed and division.

catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Inside/05-96/abbot.html
is a reported interview with him. Here are some excerpts. I strongly suggest that all interested in the NOM or TLM’s future, take 15min to read the interview.

Regarding BUGNINI he says

Secularization was, for him (Bugnini), a necessary process, something the Church needed to accept and embrace.
He accepted and embraced secularism because he said it was reality, and it was necessary to accept reality. He held to the modern philosophical view that man is made without God, and does not need God….He never would have written anything like that. And even when he talked, he did not do so imprudently. He may never have spoken those words exactly, but that was his meaning, as his repeated answers to Bishop Malula revealed.
You know, he had a very high opinion of himself. He wanted to reach the very highest levels, to become a cardinal, to reach the higher levels of power.

So, one need not be a carded member of freemasonry, but only imbued with their philosohy.
And conerning the present hierarchy:

We lack spiritual leadership, which the bishops really should give. …So the Evil One, who is attacking the Church at all times, is powerful, and drawing away many to ruin, but then there is no leadership for the good ones.