NON-traditional Tridentine Mass?

[Franciscum]

Following is a wonderful letter from taken from the July-August 2004 issue of Adoremus. It is wonderful reading for those who actually believe that all was well with the Mass prior to V@:

"The Old Mass
Stop! Take off the rose-colored glasses and face a reality of 20/20 hindsight. I began serving “the old Mass” in 1939. I am now 73 years old, 45 years a priest, having begun my seminary studies in 1950. As a kid knowing the perfect recitation of all the Latin Mass responses, we dealt with mumbled praying of many priests. In the old days there were parishes that were known as “whiz churches”: Sunday Mass, in and out in 20 minutes.

Young priests were told the motto: “Get them out fast”. In college I was too embarrassed to invite my dormitory roommates to Sunday Mass - the blatant lack of piety was a scandal. Rarely do I look back and remember edifying experiences as being the norm. But, yes, there were some.

In my experience today the gains outshine the losses. Yes, I know where craziness exists and horror stories are a fact. But the gains were tremendous. Yes, we are still growing/becoming what we should be. Change begets excesses – the pendulum swings from one extreme to the other, yet eventually resting in the middle… The recent writings and promulgations of our Holy Father give us hope, e.g., the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (USCCB Website), Sacrosanctum Concilium, and Ecclesia de Eucharistia.

Don’t despair. If there is craziness in your parish, pray for your bishop, write lovingly to the offending priest and copy it to the diocesan liturgical committee. Don’t you be crazy too – document accurately the observation of misdirection.

Having been a pastor for 27 years, in a variety of multicultural parishes, I have witnessed, in these changing times, the evolution of a profoundly rich contemporary Mass that is celebrated within the rules.

Would I go back to pre-Vatican II days? No way. I reverence the past, but live and work in the richness of the present, championing orthodoxy and “working to beat hell!”

Be patient. Treat all with charity, pray unceasingly and know that truth will conquer. As the Adoremus Bulletin tells us: “The Holy Father asks bishops and liturgists to build on the ‘riches’ of the reform while also pruning ‘serious abuses’ with ‘prudent firmness’”. (“The Foundations of Liturgical Reform”, March 2004)

Father Andre J. Meluskey
Senior Priest, St. Patrick Church
Carlisle, Pennsylvania"

 

[misericordie]

Franciscum:

Following is a wonderful letter from taken from the July-August 2004 issue of Adoremus. It is wonderful reading for those who actually believe that all was well with the Mass prior to V@:

"The Old Mass
Stop! Take off the rose-colored glasses and face a reality of 20/20 hindsight. I began serving “the old Mass” in 1939. I am now 73 years old, 45 years a priest, having begun my seminary studies in 1950. As a kid knowing the perfect recitation of all the Latin Mass responses, we dealt with mumbled praying of many priests. In the old days there were parishes that were known as “whiz churches”: Sunday Mass, in and out in 20 minutes.

Young priests were told the motto: “Get them out fast”. In college I was too embarrassed to invite my dormitory roommates to Sunday Mass - the blatant lack of piety was a scandal. Rarely do I look back and remember edifying experiences as being the norm. But, yes, there were some.

In my experience today the gains outshine the losses. Yes, I know where craziness exists and horror stories are a fact. But the gains were tremendous. Yes, we are still growing/becoming what we should be. Change begets excesses – the pendulum swings from one extreme to the other, yet eventually resting in the middle… The recent writings and promulgations of our Holy Father give us hope, e.g., the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (USCCB Website), Sacrosanctum Concilium, and Ecclesia de Eucharistia.

Don’t despair. If there is craziness in your parish, pray for your bishop, write lovingly to the offending priest and copy it to the diocesan liturgical committee. Don’t you be crazy too – document accurately the observation of misdirection.

Having been a pastor for 27 years, in a variety of multicultural parishes, I have witnessed, in these changing times, the evolution of a profoundly rich contemporary Mass that is celebrated within the rules.

Would I go back to pre-Vatican II days? No way. I reverence the past, but live and work in the richness of the present, championing orthodoxy and “working to beat hell!”

Be patient. Treat all with charity, pray unceasingly and know that truth will conquer. As the Adoremus Bulletin tells us: “The Holy Father asks bishops and liturgists to build on the ‘riches’ of the reform while also pruning ‘serious abuses’ with ‘prudent firmness’”. (“The Foundations of Liturgical Reform”, March 2004)

Father Andre J. Meluskey
Senior Priest, St. Patrick Church
Carlisle, Pennsylvania"

Oh how nice that he has been a priest for so many years, but of course his way of describing the TLM is common for most elderly priests today. However, the more energized and hopeful priests such as those of the Fraternity of Saint Peter are very enthusiastic and well the Mass they offer and I go to is almost TWO hours long, a full church of young adults, and reverence.

 

[Franciscum]

misericordie:

Oh how nice that he has been a priest for so many years, but of course his way of describing the TLM is common for most elderly priests today. However, the more energized and hopeful priests such as those of the Fraternity of Saint Peter are very enthusiastic and well the Mass they offer and I go to is almost TWO hours long, a full church of young adults, and reverence.

The “tlm” was obviously chok-full of abuses prior to V2 in many cases. Maybe it still is today in many cases…

 

[misericordie]

Franciscum:

The “tlm” was obviously chok-full of abuses prior to V2 in many cases. Maybe it still is today in many cases…

More than the liturgical dancers, nuns in leotards aged 75 doing a liturgical dance as I saw once, cell phones ringing, people eating in Mass, polka masses, clown masses, “ethnic masses” mariachi masses, etc, etc, etc,. Umm, once again, two hours of respect and reverence in TLM of the PRESENT!!

 

[pnewton]

misericordie:

More than the liturgical dancers, nuns in leotards aged 75 doing a liturgical dance as I saw once, cell phones ringing, people eating in Mass, polka masses, clown masses, “ethnic masses” mariachi masses, etc, etc, etc,.

I have never seen any of these at my church, except the cell phone problem (once or twice) so I have no frame of reference for how common they are. But what is an “ethnic mass?”

 

[Franciscum]

misericordie:

More than the liturgical dancers, nuns in leotards aged 75 doing a liturgical dance as I saw once, cell phones ringing, people eating in Mass, polka masses, clown masses, “ethnic masses” mariachi masses, etc, etc, etc,. Umm, once again, two hours of respect and reverence in TLM of the PRESENT!!

I’m sure all these problems have and continue to plague the “tlm” as well – or at least what they can cram into 20 minutes…

 

[misericordie]

Franciscum:

I’m sure all these problems have and continue to plague the “tlm” as well – or at least what they can cram into 20 minutes…

Okay all its obvious Franciscum has NOT been TLM. Otherwise he would know=no mariachis there. Umm, i did enjoy the entertainment though the time i saw 75 year old nuns in leotards “liturgically dancing” at a NO mass i attended=it took them 20 minutes to dance.

 

[cainem]

please forgive my ignorance what on earth is a polka mass or a mariachi mass, is this an american thing?

 

[katherine2]

cainem:

please forgive my ignorance what on earth is a polka mass or a mariachi mass, is this an american thing?

same as an organ Mass, or a symphony Mass or a Bach Mass or a baroque Mass,

 

[terrcatholic]

Chock full of abuses? Do you want to compare a priest mumbling in Latin to the "elephant mass, the polka mass, the pickup a new girlfriend mass, on and on?. It really has nothing to even do with the abuses, it has to do what right the Pope has in 1970 to even issue this new mass and then for the liberals to strictly forbid the old mass from being said. Pope after Pope warned about the sins of Modernism, can one Pope be right in Paul VI and all of the others be wrong? And to forbid a mass that was said for centuries? It just adds fuel to the fire for people who think there may possibly have been an agenda in the 60’s and 70’s that is downright possibly heretical. Why would anyone throw out a Mass that filled the stomach of the masses through such horrible times and replace it with something that I, as an obedient Catholic attend, but cant hold a candle to the high mass, where all responses are sung either by the Sisters or by a chior who know Latin, and no mumbling goes on.

Franciscum:

The “tlm” was obviously chok-full of abuses prior to V2 in many cases. Maybe it still is today in many cases…

 

[pnewton]

terrcatholic:

Do you want to compare a priest mumbling in Latin to the "elephant mass, the polka mass, the pickup a new girlfriend mass, on and on?

One of the unfair tactics that can be used to disparage either Mass is to use a bizzare and unusual incident as representative of the whole. I would be willing to bet that none of you who faithfully attend the Latin Mass ever heard the priest mumble the whole Mass, just like I have yet to see my first elephant (or accordian).

 

[katherine2]

pnewton:

I would be willing to bet that none of you who faithfully attend the Latin Mass ever heard the priest mumble the whole Mass, just like I have yet to see my first elephant (or accordian).

I faithfully attended the Latin Tridentine Mass for decades. Yes, on many occassions the priest mumbled the whole Mass.

I also remember having one girl in our class pray outloud as the rest of us followed in our prayerbooks a prayer for the canonization of the foundress of the order of nuns who taught us. This was done immediately after the conscreation.

Years later, one of the sisters told me the chaplain – a proponet of the liturgical renewal – spent 2 years to at least getting it moved to a more appropriate place in the Mass.

Of course, it could have been worse. At the other school where the rich girls went, they would say a prayer for Franco and his colaborators during the canon. (shudder)

 

[misericordie]

terrcatholic:

Chock full of abuses? Do you want to compare a priest mumbling in Latin to the "elephant mass, the polka mass, the pickup a new girlfriend mass, on and on?. It really has nothing to even do with the abuses, it has to do what right the Pope has in 1970 to even issue this new mass and then for the liberals to strictly forbid the old mass from being said. Pope after Pope warned about the sins of Modernism, can one Pope be right in Paul VI and all of the others be wrong? And to forbid a mass that was said for centuries? It just adds fuel to the fire for people who think there may possibly have been an agenda in the 60’s and 70’s that is downright possibly heretical. Why would anyone throw out a Mass that filled the stomach of the masses through such horrible times and replace it with something that I, as an obedient Catholic attend, but cant hold a candle to the high mass, where all responses are sung either by the Sisters or by a chior who know Latin, and no mumbling goes on.

Yup, yup! I agree.

 

[Marines]

The “tlm” was obviously chok-full of abuses prior to V2 in many cases. Maybe it still is today in many cases…

Hmm…try looking at the NO Mass. Yes, there were abuses, but they didn’t warrant a New Mass which was written in part by Freemasons and Protestants.

• Joe

 

[pnewton]

Marines:

…a New Mass which was written in part by Freemasons…

• Joe

Who?

 

[cainem]

Marines:

Hmm…try looking at the NO Mass. Yes, there were abuses, but they didn’t warrant a New Mass which was written in part by Freemasons and Protestants.

• Joe/QUOT are you trying to say that todays catholics are protestants, why dont you and your tlm buddies accept that todays n,o mass is a true catholic mass a truly fitting way to worship the one true god, if you cant then i’m afraid to say that perhaps it is time for you to break away completely from the roman church and stop sniping at the true successor of peter who has the authority to govern the mother church, sorry if im ranting but i am truly fed up with the disunity displayed on this site and at parish level of we are better catholics than you because we attend tlm, give yourself a shake and stop calling us freemasons you toad

 

[alex_noel]

I am a fanatic defender of the Tridentine Mass, but I am aware that it didn’t exist in the early Church. It didn’t really develope until the time of St Gregory (in the 5th century?)

That doesn’t mean that we should discredit it.

I have honestly never really accepted the New Mass during most of my time as a Catholic, although of course it is valid and I have to attend it when I can’t get to the Old Rite

 

[Marines]

Who?

Pnewton,
Novus Ordo worship service was written in the 1960s by Archbishop Annibale Bugnini (who has been linked to freemasonry) and six Protestant ministers(The six were Dr. George, Canon Jasper, Dr. Shepherd, Dr. Kunneth, Dr. Smith, and Brother Max Thurian, representing respectively the World Council of Churches, the Anglican and Lutheran communions, and the French Protestant Taize community.)

Joe[/QUOT are you trying to say that todays catholics are protestants, why dont you and your tlm buddies accept that todays n,o mass is a true catholic mass a truly fitting way to worship the one true god, if you cant then i’m afraid to say that perhaps it is time for you to break away completely from the roman church and stop sniping at the true successor of peter who has the authority to govern the mother church, sorry if im ranting but i am truly fed up with the disunity displayed on this site and at parish level of we are better catholics than you because we attend tlm, give yourself a shake and stop calling us freemasons you toad

Ok, first, I am not saying I’m holier than thou or embarking on a campaign of saying the NO is invalid. Come on, that’s extreme radical bluberish. Never once have I questioned the validity of the Novus Ordo. Right?? Secondly, the general public of Catholics needs to wake up and realize the seriousness of our sinful world. Look at the Catholic church since VC2, for crying out loud. Don’t you realize that God is punishing the world for our wretched sinfulness and desanctification? There’s what, 120,000 dead from that tsunami?? Hardly anybody believes in True Presence, real reverance, Catholic action or any solid, well-developed profession of Catholicism. Read Catholic Prophecy for crying out loud.
-Toad
[/quote]

 

[pnewton]

Marines:

Pnewton,
Novus Ordo worship service was written in the 1960s by Archbishop Annibale Bugnini (who has been linked to freemasonry)

“linked to freemasonry” is not the same as being a Mason. You stated freemasons wrote part of what you called the New Mass. Now you say it was an Archbishop who wrote it.

 

[katherine2]

Novus Ordo worship service was written in the 1960s by Archbishop Annibale Bugnini (who has been linked to freemasonry) and six Protestant ministers(The six were Dr. George, Canon Jasper, Dr. Shepherd, Dr. Kunneth, Dr. Smith, and Brother Max Thurian, representing respectively the World Council of Churches, the Anglican and Lutheran communions, and the French Protestant Taize community.)

These six gentlemen were (along with some Orthodox brethern) the ecumencial observers at the Council. None of them every claimed to write a word of the Mass nor has any member of the Council.

So other than a made up lie, what’s the source for this claim?