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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Ya know, the gates of hell may not prevail against Holy Mother Church, but Her children are gonna drive Her nuts.
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shannon_e
Guest
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Franciscum
Guest
You are testing our patience, aren’t you? The Catholic Church has both an Eastern half and a Western half.
On the Western half we have the Roman (or Latin) Rite. That’s it. Several more rites on the Eastern side, but just one rite on the Western side – the Roman Rite.
While you may think the Tridentine Mass has its own rite – or that it solely is the Roman Rite, you would be mistaken once again.
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Franciscum
Guest
Interesting. I prefer being a Catholic…
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misericordie
Guest
Oh yes, let me correct myself= in the LATIN WEST, there is no longer a ROMAN right.
By the way, why have you not answered the question of if you actually have read Motu Propio Ecclesia Dei??? Stop dancing around the issue: smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_17_3.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_17_7.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_22_1v.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_116.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_122.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_118.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_5_138.gif
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shannon_e
Guest
If I were still in my pre-Catholic days-- I’d have the perfect description for this kind of deteriorated exchange…
nevermind
nevermind
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Franciscum
Guest
Oh dear G-d, they’re back. Do you honestly think the emoticons help your “argument?”
No “Roman right?” Perhaps.
No Roman Rite? Balderdash…
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misericordie
Guest
Oh yes, I have a reputation for being very blunt in defense of the faith, the politically correct cannot see this.
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luke2219
Guest
JKirkLVNV,
Thanks for trying to bring some reason to this thread. Many of the posters had a lot of reason and made some good points. But it was mixed in with even more silliness, unreasonable arguments, mud-slinging and rudeness.
For those readers who now have more questions than answers from reading this thread, I have a book suggestion.
What About The Latin Mass? - The Toughest Questions Answered
%between% http://www.catholicstore.com/images/products/14170lg.jpg
This is the most reasonable account of the status of the Latin Rite Mass. Dr. Johnson does not take sides on the issue. He treats each side of the argument with charity and respect. He points out the silliness and error on both sides and backs up his statements with good reason and sources.
This is a great read for anyone who is confused and frustrated by the rhetoric they hear from radical traditionalists and the way they see the Novus Ordo abused in their parishes.
It’s written in a very easy to read conversational style. He says things simply and gets right to the point.
If you love the TLM, want to see the Novus Ordo as the Church intends, hate abuses, and want to stay faithful to Jesus, Rome, and the Holy Father, then this is the book for you. Don’t listen to what is said in this thread. A lot of it is poison.
The book is only $2 and only 32 pages long. No, I don’t get commission for its sales, I just found it to be extremely helpful.
Pax et bonum
Thanks for trying to bring some reason to this thread. Many of the posters had a lot of reason and made some good points. But it was mixed in with even more silliness, unreasonable arguments, mud-slinging and rudeness.
For those readers who now have more questions than answers from reading this thread, I have a book suggestion.
What About The Latin Mass? - The Toughest Questions Answered
%between% http://www.catholicstore.com/images/products/14170lg.jpg
This is the most reasonable account of the status of the Latin Rite Mass. Dr. Johnson does not take sides on the issue. He treats each side of the argument with charity and respect. He points out the silliness and error on both sides and backs up his statements with good reason and sources.
This is a great read for anyone who is confused and frustrated by the rhetoric they hear from radical traditionalists and the way they see the Novus Ordo abused in their parishes.
It’s written in a very easy to read conversational style. He says things simply and gets right to the point.
If you love the TLM, want to see the Novus Ordo as the Church intends, hate abuses, and want to stay faithful to Jesus, Rome, and the Holy Father, then this is the book for you. Don’t listen to what is said in this thread. A lot of it is poison.
The book is only $2 and only 32 pages long. No, I don’t get commission for its sales, I just found it to be extremely helpful.
Pax et bonum
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misericordie
Guest
Thanks seems very interesting. Also, thanks for your calm, collected and logical argument here.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Thank you, Luke2219. I shall be acquiring this!
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AmyS
Guest
Me too… I just don’t understand the venom on these threads. It makes me hang my head in shame for more than one reason.
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misericordie
Guest
I will surely order my copy!
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system
Guest
Mr Franciscum
Your comments about me and my faith are very uncharitable, and your denegration of the traditional mass leads me to believe you accept all of the liturgical abuses that take place daily at the Novus Ordo Mass. Liberal Catholics always, when hit with facts which they can not deny like a mass attendance that went from over 70% in 1962 to less than 15% today, to over 46,000 seminarians in 1965 to less than 5,000 today, etc they just start name calling, because the fruits of Vatican II have been sour, and the free for all that has unexpectedly been instituted by a well intentioned Pope in Paul VI, who had horrible advisors, and like any President with bad generals was misguided and now they are trying to dig themselves out of this liberal mass that was instituted and trying to make it “reverent” which is like trying to make an ugly duckling into a beauty queen, cant be done. He allowed a man like Annibele Bugnini, fired twice by two Popes to draft up the liturgy and throw out over 70% of the Mass. And yes, it is the true mass as it stood the test of time and was codified in the most important Council and by a Saint in Saint Pope Pius V, who defended the church with Prayer from the Mohammed Invaderes . The mass was never to be tampered with without the wrath of St Peter and St Paul.
Maybe we are a fringe movement, with only 5-10% of Catholics attending the TLM, but if you think about it, with all of your church institutions monies, churches, diocese, and with the Pope (as many many Conservatives who want to attend the TLM or St Pius X dont do so because they feel they are going against the Pope, but desire it so to come back, like my mother, aunts,uncles and the like who cant make the 10 to 20 mile drive to the nearest Traditional Chapel) we are really only 5% behind what you have going to your CONVENIENT NOVUS ORDO SERVICE Down the block! Amazing! If we had your resources, as we build and renovate these churches right from our own pocket with donated time and labor, we would be able to grow even further.
So, please stop the name calling as that is form of calumny, you can voice your feelings about statements, but not me or any other person on this board as that is unacceptable. I know a bit about the seminary and what goes on there also, and the root of these abuses start right at the seminary level as the formation directors are liberal or gay or even sisters who are bent on the changing of the church, and conservative seminarians do not even make it past the first year, and much of the priest shortage you have right now, is man made because the church , especially here in the US has been hijacked by Ultra Left Liberal Bishops
Peace to you
Franciscum:
Your comments about me and my faith are very uncharitable, and your denegration of the traditional mass leads me to believe you accept all of the liturgical abuses that take place daily at the Novus Ordo Mass. Liberal Catholics always, when hit with facts which they can not deny like a mass attendance that went from over 70% in 1962 to less than 15% today, to over 46,000 seminarians in 1965 to less than 5,000 today, etc they just start name calling, because the fruits of Vatican II have been sour, and the free for all that has unexpectedly been instituted by a well intentioned Pope in Paul VI, who had horrible advisors, and like any President with bad generals was misguided and now they are trying to dig themselves out of this liberal mass that was instituted and trying to make it “reverent” which is like trying to make an ugly duckling into a beauty queen, cant be done. He allowed a man like Annibele Bugnini, fired twice by two Popes to draft up the liturgy and throw out over 70% of the Mass. And yes, it is the true mass as it stood the test of time and was codified in the most important Council and by a Saint in Saint Pope Pius V, who defended the church with Prayer from the Mohammed Invaderes . The mass was never to be tampered with without the wrath of St Peter and St Paul.
Maybe we are a fringe movement, with only 5-10% of Catholics attending the TLM, but if you think about it, with all of your church institutions monies, churches, diocese, and with the Pope (as many many Conservatives who want to attend the TLM or St Pius X dont do so because they feel they are going against the Pope, but desire it so to come back, like my mother, aunts,uncles and the like who cant make the 10 to 20 mile drive to the nearest Traditional Chapel) we are really only 5% behind what you have going to your CONVENIENT NOVUS ORDO SERVICE Down the block! Amazing! If we had your resources, as we build and renovate these churches right from our own pocket with donated time and labor, we would be able to grow even further.
So, please stop the name calling as that is form of calumny, you can voice your feelings about statements, but not me or any other person on this board as that is unacceptable. I know a bit about the seminary and what goes on there also, and the root of these abuses start right at the seminary level as the formation directors are liberal or gay or even sisters who are bent on the changing of the church, and conservative seminarians do not even make it past the first year, and much of the priest shortage you have right now, is man made because the church , especially here in the US has been hijacked by Ultra Left Liberal Bishops
Peace to you
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system
Guest
God bless you, I think there is a place for both masses, but the people, as you can see who are for the Novus Ordo have attacked me personally, not the mass, and that is a sinful thing to do, like Franciscum, Kat2,and many others
misericordie:
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katherine2
Guest
good post, Luke. I have a copy of that pamplet and found it very informative, balanced, thougthful and helpful. I would recommend it to all.
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MrS
Guest
yes it is a good read… and a good companion book for two others: Liturgical Time Bombs in Vatican II (by Davies), and The Problems With The Prayers of the Modern Mass (by Fr. Cekada).
And to repeat myself from another thread concerning both “sides” of the issue:
I find many SSPXers too much to deal with too. And many Traditionalist… but many more “newer” Catholics who shudder at longer Masses, more smells and bells, Latin. etc.
It reminds me of a child who has been feed fast food for forty years, and now balks at eating quality food with strange names even when a menu is provided for explanation.:banghead: And won’t consider an elders opinion that it just might be better for them… and they don’t need a bishop to return what has never been taken away.
And to repeat myself from another thread concerning both “sides” of the issue:
I find many SSPXers too much to deal with too. And many Traditionalist… but many more “newer” Catholics who shudder at longer Masses, more smells and bells, Latin. etc.
It reminds me of a child who has been feed fast food for forty years, and now balks at eating quality food with strange names even when a menu is provided for explanation.:banghead: And won’t consider an elders opinion that it just might be better for them… and they don’t need a bishop to return what has never been taken away.
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katherine2
Guest
What might seem odd to some, its often the non-neo-trad but conservative Catholics who are unsupportive of longer Masses, more smells and bells, Latin. etc and the progressives who are more supportive.
My sister is going through this at her parish. The new pastor has employed a processional cross, use of incense, some new a quite lovely altar furnishings, a partially sung Mass and some quite fine traditional cantatas and motets, and then extra minutes untilthe folks get to the parking lot.
Well, the conservative old guard is having a fit. “well, well, well, we don’t need all these extras, all this performance. The Mass is not entertainment.” they say.
Fro the real trads who like a fine, traditional High Mass, I understand their desires. But they should realize it is the odl school conservatives who view the Mass as a 40 minute exercize to rush through as quickly as possible so to avoid any possibility of committing “an abuse”. The shorter and plainer the Mass, the less chance to violate any rule. After all, as long as you’ve met the minimal test for validity, what does anything else matter? or so they say.
Then we have the other nasty little secret. if you are going to have a choir, and a well appointed church, etc. you are going to have to have the laypeople engaged and involved in parish life – serving in the choir, contributing to the parish, etc. etc. That calls for a VC2 style colaboration and engagement of the laity.
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Franciscum
Guest
Johnson’s monograph is well done. I’m not sure how well it will be received by the “OneTrueMass” club, but time will tell.
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Franciscum
Guest
jtnova:
Your comments above, laughable.
As long as you attack the Catholic Church there will be people like me who will return fire. As a member of the SSPX and not the Catholic Church I can see your need to try and attack the Church, but you need to realize there will be a price to pay.
Your comments may well be a product of ignorance not malice, but that still does not excuse the downright nasty tenor of your postings.
Your attacks on the Catholic Church and the Pauline Mass are simply unacceptable.
Your comments above, laughable.
As long as you attack the Catholic Church there will be people like me who will return fire. As a member of the SSPX and not the Catholic Church I can see your need to try and attack the Church, but you need to realize there will be a price to pay.
Your comments may well be a product of ignorance not malice, but that still does not excuse the downright nasty tenor of your postings.
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