NON-traditional Tridentine Mass?

[Fergal]

**CHAPTER II **

THE MOST SACRED MYSTERY OF THE EUCHARIST

1. The Church, therefore, earnestly desires that Christ’s faithful, when present at this mystery of faith, should not be there as strangers or silent spectators; on the contrary, through a good understanding of the rites and prayers they should take part in the sacred action conscious of what they are doing, with devotion and full collaboration. They should be instructed by God’s word and be nourished at the table of the Lord’s body; they should give thanks to God; by offering the Immaculate Victim, not only through the hands of the priest, but also with him, they should learn also to offer themselves; through Christ the Mediator (38), they should be drawn day by day into ever more perfect union with God and with each other, so that finally God may be all in all.
2. For this reason the sacred Council has made the following decrees in order that the sacrifice of the Mass may become pastorally efficacious to the fullest degree.
3. The rite of the Mass is to be revised in such a way that the intrinsic nature and purpose of its several parts, as also the connection between them, may be more clearly manifested, and that devout and active participation by the faithful may be more easily achieved.

For this purpose the rites are to be simplified, due care being taken to preserve their substance; elements which, with the passage of time, came to be duplicated, or were added with but little advantage, are now to be discarded; other elements which have suffered injury through accidents of history are now to be restored to the vigor which they had in the days of the holy Fathers, as may seem useful or necessary.

1. The treasures of the bible are to be opened up more lavishly, so that richer fare may be provided for the faithful at the table of God’s word. In this way a more representative portion of the holy scriptures will be read to the people in the course of a prescribed number of years.
2. By means of the homily the mysteries of the faith and the guiding principles of the Christian life are expounded from the sacred text, during the course of the liturgical year; the homily, therefore, is to be highly esteemed as part of the liturgy itself; in fact, at those Masses which are celebrated with the assistance of the people on Sundays and feasts of obligation, it should not be omitted except for a serious reason.
3. Especially on Sundays and feasts of obligation there is to be restored, after the Gospel and the homily, “the common prayer” or “the prayer of the faithful.” By this prayer, in which the people are to take part, intercession will be made for holy Church, for the civil authorities, for those oppressed by various needs, for all mankind, and for the salvation of the entire world (39).
4. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to tho norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.

Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.

And wherever a more extended use of the mother tongue within the Mass appears desirable, the regulation laid down in Art. 40 of this Constitution is to be observed.

1. That more perfect form of participation in the Mass whereby the faithful, after the priest’s communion, receive the Lord’s body from the same sacrifice, is strongly commended.

The dogmatic principles which were laid down by the Council of Trent remaining intact (40), communion under both kinds may be granted when the bishops think fit, not only to clerics and religious, but also to the laity, in cases to be determined by the Apostolic See, as, for instance, to the newly ordained in the Mass of their sacred ordination, to the newly professed in the Mass of their religious profession, and to the newly baptized in the Mass which follows their baptism.

1. The two parts which, in a certain sense, go to make up the Mass, namely, the liturgy of the word and the eucharistic liturgy, are so closely connected with each other that they form but one single act of worship. Accordingly this sacred Synod strongly urges pastors of souls that, when instructing the faithful, they insistently teach them to take their part in the entire Mass, especially on Sundays and feasts of obligation.

It is not the Church who has erred. It is the experimentalists and the lax Catholics that have allowed the Mass to go beyond what was expected from Rome in Vatican II. When experimentation began the Bishops should have stepped in and used the crozier.

 

[system]

Mr. Franciscan

You are not a defender of the faith, as it is you and your ilk who have actually LEFT the church, the church that stood the test of time for some 2000 years. Like the Aryan heresy of Old, where the small few traditionals stood and held onto the traditions until a new Pope could come and restore order, you will be deeply upset if in your lifetime this comes to pass.

Along with the 470 cannonizations of Pope JPII, more than all other Popes added together over 5 centuries, the V2 people as yourself are misguided, and I have made it a point, as many other Conservative Catholics to stay part of our Parishes so we can implement reform or should I say resore tradition. We prefer, for no other choice because our Bishops are scared of allowing even the watered down Indult, to go worship at a place where liturgical abuses are not running rampant and where my hard earned money is not going to some lawyer to pay off for the abuses committed by some pedophile priest who was let into the seminary in the name of Vatican II. You see, the church and the seminaries wantd a new kind of priest after Vatican ii, one that was OK with the ordination of woman, married men and homosexuals, while the orthodox candidate, when facing the formation director for the first year and recites church teachings on homosexuality, that the church is bride of Jesus , that yes, there is a place in the church for woman, like our Lady and others who do amazing work in convents and other various orders, but not as Priests, and that I believe in sacred scripture and that the bread and wine truly become the body and blood, you are then sent off to a diocese shrink for being to “rigid” for “reorientation”. Read "Goodbye Good Men, by Michael Rosewhich also documents this, and EWTN’s Father Trugillio’s 14 year ordeal throgh the seminaries and the “coming out parties” and “Notre Flame” and all the goings on in the Seminaries that are a product of liberalism.

No, the Vatican and the dioceses here in the US are reaping what they have sowed, and liberalism is the diametric opposite to Catholicism.

Franciscum:

Your attacks on the Catholic Church and the Pauline Mass are simply unacceptable.

Your comments above, laughable.

As long as you attack the Catholic Church there will be people like me who will return fire. As a member of the SSPX and not the Catholic Church I can see your need to try and attack the Church, but you need to realize there will be a price to pay.

Your comments may well be a product of ignorance not malice, but that still does not excuse the downright nasty tenor of your postings.

 

[shannon_e]

Franciscum:

Your attacks on the Catholic Church and the Pauline Mass are simply unacceptable.
…
As long as you attack the Catholic Church there will be people like me who will return fire. As a member of the SSPX and not the Catholic Church I can see your need to try and attack the Church, but you need to realize there will be a price to pay.

Your comments may well be a product of ignorance not malice, but that still does not excuse the downright nasty tenor of your postings.

Agreed.
And Fergal and Luke, thanks for your post, too.

Peace

 

[Franciscum]

jtnova:

Mr. Franciscan

You are not a defender of the faith, as it is you and your ilk who have actually LEFT the church, the church that stood the test of time for some 2000 years. Like the Aryan heresy of Old, where the small few traditionals stood and held onto the traditions until a new Pope could come and restore order, you will be deeply upset if in your lifetime this comes to pass.

Along with the 470 cannonizations of Pope JPII, more than all other Popes added together over 5 centuries, the V2 people as yourself are misguided, and I have made it a point, as many other Conservative Catholics to stay part of our Parishes so we can implement reform or should I say resore tradition. We prefer, for no other choice because our Bishops are scared of allowing even the watered down Indult, to go worship at a place where liturgical abuses are not running rampant and where my hard earned money is not going to some lawyer to pay off for the abuses committed by some pedophile priest who was let into the seminary in the name of Vatican II. You see, the church and the seminaries wantd a new kind of priest after Vatican ii, one that was OK with the ordination of woman, married men and homosexuals, while the orthodox candidate, when facing the formation director for the first year and recites church teachings on homosexuality, that the church is bride of Jesus , that yes, there is a place in the church for woman, like our Lady and others who do amazing work in convents and other various orders, but not as Priests, and that I believe in sacred scripture and that the bread and wine truly become the body and blood, you are then sent off to a diocese shrink for being to “rigid” for “reorientation”. Read "Goodbye Good Men, by Michael Rosewhich also documents this, and EWTN’s Father Trugillio’s 14 year ordeal throgh the seminaries and the “coming out parties” and “Notre Flame” and all the goings on in the Seminaries that are a product of liberalism.

No, the Vatican and the dioceses here in the US are reaping what they have sowed, and liberalism is the diametric opposite to Catholicism.

You keep making laughable observations and judgements. It’s clear you couldn’t have any idea just how ignorant and myopic you appear to others, because if you did, you would stop in an instance.

Your further tip your hand by mentioning Mike Rose’s book. While it’s a nice piece of soothing mind-candy, it’s certainly not what I would consider a scholarly work, or even a professionally investigative work.

People like you need to dig just a bit deeper. May I suggest you begin with the Catechsim of the Catholic Church, the Encyclicals of Pope JPII and of course, the Bible?

Something made you leave the Catholic Church in order to join the SSPX. The only thing that’s going to bring you back is good catechesis, plenty of prayer, and one would hope, the grace of the Holy Spirit.

In the mean time quite denigrating MY beloved Church and MY beloved Pope John Paul II…

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

jtnova:

Mr. Franciscan

You are not a defender of the faith, as it is you and your ilk who have actually LEFT the church, the church that stood the test of time for some 2000 years. Like the Aryan heresy of Old, where the small few traditionals stood and held onto the traditions until a new Pope could come and restore order, you will be deeply upset if in your lifetime this comes to pass.

JT,
I have to disagree with you. Besides our one small issue with eachother, Franciscum (not Franciscan) is an able defender of the Faith.

Franciscum:

Your further tip your hand by mentioning Mike Rose’s book. While it’s a nice piece of soothing mind-candy, it’s certainly not what I would consider a scholarly work, or even a professionally investigative work.

I have to agree with this, I read Good Bye, Good Men and found it to be nothing more than anecdotal at best. It can not be taken as the truth except for the cases it talkes about and then some of those are subjective.

People like you need to dig just a bit deeper. May I suggest you begin with the Catechsim of the Catholic Church, the Encyclicals of Pope JPII and of course, the Bible?

Something made you leave the Catholic Church in order to join the SSPX. The only thing that’s going to bring you back is good catechesis, plenty of prayer, and one would hope, the grace of the Holy Spirit.

In the mean time quite denigrating MY beloved Church and MY beloved Pope John Paul II…

I have to agree with this. Try reading the documents of the Chruch instead of biased anti-catholic garbage from schismatic/sedevacantist web sites.

But if you can’t/won’t do that then I suggest that you stop posting that garbage as fact.

 

[misericordie]

Franciscum:

You keep making laughable observations and judgements. It’s clear you couldn’t have any idea just how ignorant and myopic you appear to others, because if you did, you would stop in an instance.

Your further tip your hand by mentioning Mike Rose’s book. While it’s a nice piece of soothing mind-candy, it’s certainly not what I would consider a scholarly work, or even a professionally investigative work.

People like you need to dig just a bit deeper. May I suggest you begin with the Catechsim of the Catholic Church, the Encyclicals of Pope JPII and of course, the Bible?

Something made you leave the Catholic Church in order to join the SSPX. The only thing that’s going to bring you back is good catechesis, plenty of prayer, and one would hope, the grace of the Holy Spirit.

In the mean time quite denigrating MY beloved Church and MY beloved Pope John Paul II…

For a person that finds the posts of serious mature people here “laughable” it is even more laughable that you have not been able to answer my question (and everyone is noticing this here) of IF you read Motu Propio Ecclesia Dei Of Pope John Paul II???
It is again however sad that the moderators have not yet seen your disrespectful comments and rudeness, and this too has been noticed by MANY forum members here as well, as some have commented to me. Just note that if you react with rudeness, rudeness you will get in return.

 

[Fergal]

***“if you react with rudeness, rudeness you will get in return.” ***Isn’t this a little too much departed from the demands of Christ?? To me it demonstrates very much a mind set of the Old Testament. Misericordie, I once thought I understood where you were coming from. Now I am confused again.

Would I be right in saying that fractions of the Old Testament attract you too? An eye for an eye maybe??

I wonder how you would have been if you were a Pharisee or Saducee in the time of Christ?? Would you have treated him with similar dismissal as he strove to change what was at that time the established church. I sincerely think that even his miracles would not be enough for you to recognise the validity of what vjriost was trying to Change.
God established the temple rite of sacrifice in the Old testament. God established the church rite of sacrifice in the New Testament. This was too much for the Jews and hence they remember the old covenant to this day and await the Messiah.
In your reasoning they are quite right to reject the New Covanent and remin in the old if change proves too much. Correct??

This change from Old Covenant to New Covenant was a massive change too. However the human heart recognises that God is always and everywhere in charge.

The Holy Spirit blows and acts where he wills.
There has only ever been and always will be the one true Mass.

 

[Franciscum]

misericordie:

For a person that finds the posts of serious mature people here “laughable” it is even more laughable that you have not been able to answer my question (and everyone is noticing this here) of IF you read Motu Propio Ecclesia Dei Of Pope John Paul II???
It is again however sad that the moderators have not yet seen your disrespectful comments and rudeness, and this too has been noticed by MANY forum members here as well, as some have commented to me. Just note that if you react with rudeness, rudeness you will get in return.

1.) Why don’t you answer the questions I asked of you in #24 and #47?

2.) Of course I have read Ecclesia Dei. Sorry to say, the other posters are quite correct. It’s up to the local ordinary whether or not to allow the indult. When it is allowed, it can most certainly be attended by anyone.

3.) Knock-off your whining with respect to the moderators. Your off-the-wall postings (complete with those inane emoticons) have ruined more than one thread. Given your own reputation, you have no room to judge others.

 

[MrS]

misericordie:

For a person that finds the posts of serious mature people here “laughable” it is even more laughable that you have not been able to answer my question (and everyone is noticing this here) of IF you read Motu Propio Ecclesia Dei Of Pope John Paul II???
It is again however sad that the moderators have not yet seen your disrespectful comments and rudeness, and this too has been noticed by MANY forum members here as well, as some have commented to me. Just note that if you react with rudeness, rudeness you will get in return.

Franciscum, is a sad case… and not laughable. His agenda is his agenda… can’t change him…let him wallow in his views. Perhaps we should offer a TLM for all the posters here… those who don’t like it can offer a NO for all. It would be a win-win situation.

As for the moderators… I often think they just watch with amusement if they watch at all. Let’s not forget they are only moderators not orthodox theologians, so their (name removed by moderator)ut should only occur at “drastic” situations. I personally could care less if Fran makes himself look silly. He has an axe to grind…and he is only swinging with a short handle.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

 

[terrcatholic]

In my experience the Traditional Mass is the most beautiful experience that one can go through, I see a lot of truth in some of the posts above, and cant quite understand how anyone could be against a Mass that was the edifying food for many for centuries and should be used more and more in many peoples opinion. For some reason though it seems to be pushed off to the side, maybe the new mass is easier to say. We all welcomed the changes at first, but I have to admit after many years, I would welcome a reinstituting of the Old Mass.

 

[MrS]

terrcatholic:

In my experience the Traditional Mass is the most beautiful experience that one can go through, I see a lot of truth in some of the posts above, and cant quite understand how anyone could be against a Mass that was the edifying food for many for centuries and should be used more and more in many peoples opinion. For some reason though it seems to be pushed off to the side, maybe the new mass is easier to say. We all welcomed the changes at first, but I have to admit after many years, I would welcome a reinstituting of the Old Mass.

Bless you for your comments. Too many young Catholics however, prefer the easier way. They will buy “code” books and instruction manuals for games on their PlayStation etc, and give “active participation” for hours on end, and then complain that even the NO is too hard, too boring etc. (these are not just young teens, but those gamers into their twenties too.)

 

[AmyS]

terrcatholic:

In my experience the Traditional Mass is the most beautiful experience that one can go through, I see a lot of truth in some of the posts above, and cant quite understand how anyone could be against a Mass that was the edifying food for many for centuries and should be used more and more in many peoples opinion. For some reason though it seems to be pushed off to the side, maybe the new mass is easier to say. We all welcomed the changes at first, but I have to admit after many years, I would welcome a reinstituting of the Old Mass.

I don’t know how anyone can be against either Masses as long as they are good, liturgically correct Masses… The Catholic Church in all its entirety is beautiful, every precious detail. I believe the TLM Mass is and the NO Mass. The thing is the cut downs come from both ends. That needs to stop period. The whole I am better, no I am better gets us no where. There is a new generation of Church attenders that are very Orthodox… Arguing is going to get us no where. Speaking from the stand point of a very Conservative, Orthodox Catholic that attends the NO Mass in my area, and who has been very drawn to the TLM, some of the posters here make me want to run the other way. Although I have got some wonderful PM from other posters who attend TLM who make me believe they are the majority, and very kind people. I am open to all the beauty in the Church. The thing people have to remember is the Holy Spirit enter us if we have humility… There is a correct approach and a damageing one. Bless you and great post.

 

[AmyS]

MrS:

Bless you for your comments. Too many young Catholics however, prefer the easier way. They will buy “code” books and instruction manuals for games on their PlayStation etc, and give “active participation” for hours on end, and then complain that even the NO is too hard, too boring etc. (these are not just young teens, but those gamers into their twenties too.)

I see a lot of hope in our youth… Even people of my generation… I am 31. The thing is we saw the mistakes of our parents generation (my parents are perfect though ) I am teaching my daughter about her faith, the Catholic Church, and al the beauties and importance of it. She has actually gone to Eucharistic Adoration on her own… My whole family is very Orthodox, and knowledgeable when it comes to our faith.

 

[MrS]

AmyS:

I see a lot of hope in our youth… Even people of my generation… I am 31. The thing is we saw the mistakes of our parents generation (my parents are perfect though ) I am teaching my daughter about her faith, the Catholic Church, and al the beauties and importance of it. She has actually gone to Eucharistic Adoration on her own… My whole family is very Orthodox, and knowledgeable when it comes to our faith.

GOoD FOR YOUhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

 

[bear06]

Like the Aryan heresy of Old, where the small few traditionals stood and held onto the traditions until a new Pope could come and restore order, you will be deeply upset if in your lifetime this comes to pass.

Ahhhh…some of the names have changed but the same historically challenged arguments and arguments with no citations are still here.

Please, please, please do some research on the history of Athanasius and Liberius. Try actually reading something other than articles found in the Remnant, etc. Even the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia doesn’t retell the tales as the rad-Trads.

Misericordie, if you’re going to slander Cardinal Ratzinger, could you at least site some sources? I notice, as most, that you’ve ignored this request.

BTW, this quote is a gem. My head reels at the thought of the saints you have called infantile and immature!

People and THINGS grow up. Hopefully, most catholics who want to take the church BACK into infantile, immature days will too.

Along with the 470 cannonizations of Pope JPII, more than all other Popes added together over 5 centuries, the V2 people as yourself are misguided,

So here we have it. The rad-Trads danced around this issue for awhile but it seems that they’ve finally started saying what they mean. I think the canonization of a priest that said the Pauline Mass was just too much for them to take. So these canonizations are bogus? And where is your authority in this matter? If you’re not saying they’re “bogus” as some have said, what’s you’re point?

I find it, once again, sad that most cannot seem to promote the Tridentine without condemning the Pauline Mass.

I’ve suggested this many times now and I’ll suggest it again even though it will be ignored. How about you expend some energy trying to gain an indult? For those who have it, how did you get it? Somehow I’m betting it wasn’t by throwing tantrums about the Pauline Mass. Let’s be constructive rather than destructive. I find that most “traditionalists” are their own worst enemy when it comes to gaining an indult!

 

[Franciscum]

terrcatholic:

In my experience the Traditional Mass is the most beautiful experience that one can go through, I see a lot of truth in some of the posts above, and cant quite understand how anyone could be against a Mass that was the edifying food for many for centuries and should be used more and more in many peoples opinion. For some reason though it seems to be pushed off to the side, maybe the new mass is easier to say. We all welcomed the changes at first, but I have to admit after many years, I would welcome a reinstituting of the Old Mass.

I am against ignorant people who cast a pall over the Church and the Tridentine Mass.

 

[Munda_cor_meum]

misericordie:

So in other words you are stating that POPE JOHN PAUL II has taken the Church back to “the dark ages” by saying in Motu Propio Ecclesia Dei that all Bishops should grant the Tridentine Mass as widely as possible?? Have ou even read Motu Propio Ecclesia Dei? If you have, is the POPE therefore wrong and archaic for so writing it??

I think you may have mis-understood my post. I was responding to a previous post that indicated that the New Mass “brought the Church out of the Dark Ages”.

That being said, a change in liturgy over time is normal and expected in my opinion. Many of the early Church practices were borne out of necessity. Say, for example, receiving communion on the hand…

The changes brought about by Vatican II, on the other hand were sudden, drastic, and imposed almost as if by an external force. That is one of the reasons that I question the wisdom of the New Mass.

Finally, I would welcome a return to the “dark ages”. From all of the fairly recent historical studies, it seems to have been truly a wonderous time when Nations were subservient to and guided by God Himself.

 

[MrS]

Munda cor meum:

Finally, I would welcome a return to the “dark ages”. From all of the fairly recent historical studies, it seems to have been truly a wonderous time when Nations were subservient to and guided by God Himself.

Me too… there is so much more light in the “dark ages”. If we don’t take a stand for something of value, eventually we won’t kneel for it either.

 

[Franciscum]

MrS:

Franciscum, is a sad case… and not laughable. His agenda is his agenda… can’t change him…let him wallow in his views. Perhaps we should offer a TLM for all the posters here… those who don’t like it can offer a NO for all. It would be a win-win situation.

As for the moderators… I often think they just watch with amusement if they watch at all. Let’s not forget they are only moderators not orthodox theologians, so their (name removed by moderator)ut should only occur at “drastic” situations. I personally could care less if Fran makes himself look silly. He has an axe to grind…and he is only swinging with a short handle.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

Take a close look at your comments above. It added absolutely zero value to the discussion.

Why did you even bother to make the above posting? Ego? Boredom? While this is certainly not a new experience for you (based on some of your other posting I have read), it would be nice if you tried harder to either make a contribution or refrain from posting in the future.

 

[AmyS]

MrS:

GOoD FOR YOUhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

I apologize if that sounded too proud… We try our best is a better way to put it. I pray that we are on the right track. Now, when it comes to my daughter it is hard not to be boastful. She has done me proud in her whole nine years…