Normalizing suicide

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Inquisitor85 said:
Fine, I support assisted suicide. To be honest if I was in the gentleman in the articles position I’d take the same route. I wouldn’t want to live either in endless pain, or so doped up on painkillers that I don’t know where or who I am.

I’d pass on the party though, not my thing.
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Well, if I were terminally ill and had nothing to look forward to, I might want to die, too, for my own convenience.

But, as I said in the earlier post, I can’t go along with legalizing assisted suicide, just because of the possibilities of abuse I noted earlier.
 
Like most of the people you mention, I have an aversion to the thought of suicide. And I know that when someone commits suicide, it is often devestating for their loved ones, so it does seem a little selfish. When someone is suffering from depression or addiction, they might feel hopeless, but with proper treatment, they can perhaps recover and go on to lead a normal life. If someone has a painful form of terminal cancer, they can probably be made more comfortable with pain killers.

Of course, I say all of these things as someone who has never been addicted, almost never been depressed for more than a day or two in my whole life and never been in excruciating pain. It’s easy for me to make armchair pronouncements about what other people ought to do in situations that I’ve never experienced myself. I might feel differently if I was in their shoes, so I try not to be too judgemental of people who have made different decisions than the ones I imagine I would make.

That all said, I must admit that one of the things I fear the most is getting some kind of dementia such as Alzheimer’s and that’s one of the only situations that I could imagine myself contemplating suicide. There’s almost no effective treatments for it and to me, if my mind were destroyed, I would cease to be the person I am now, the person that my loved ones care about. Only my physical body would remain, but it would, in my opinion, be nothing but an empty shell.

If I had advanced Alzheimer’s, what would remain of myself except for my body if I couldn’t remember how to dress myself or feed myself, no longer remembered or was interested in all the things I use to know and love that make me into the unique individual I am, had no more memories of my past, couldn’t remember what I said or what someone said to me a minute before, and couldn’t even remember who I am? I’ve seen dementia turn kind and considerate people into abusive and even violent ones who are nothing like the individuals they once were. The prospect of that happening to me would be almost unbearable.
 
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As a former atheist, the concept of suffering and redemptive suffering in particular, was troublesome for me to accept.

The real presence of the Eucharist, the Marian dogmas, the prohibition against artificial birth control and abortion were no problem for me. Suffering and the concept of redemptive suffering was hard for me to wrap my mind around.

I guess it was how the concept was presented to me in real life. I had seen too many victims of abuse urged to put up with their abuser under the concept that God likes to see them suffer. The sick who were in pain were told that God likes to see them suffer. This brought to mind the image of God as a sadist. It took me decades for me to get over this concept and even now I still get the notion that if I say “Your will be done not mine” suffering will be all the more certain.

I still struggle with this so I can’t blame non-Christians who are new to the concept of redemptive suffering.

For someone who has no fully developed notion of redemptive suffering I can understand why they would want to end it all.
 
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I totally understand what you are saying. My own daughter the victim of abuse as a little girl by a playmates father ,struggles with this question to this day. She also just got out of a dysfunctional marriage after 17 years and is hopefully through good therapy going to believe that God does desire her happiness and peace .
 
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I think it can be a bit much to ask someone with a secular viewpoint to see the value of redemptive suffering.
I think there are plenty of good secular arguments against assisted suicide / PAS / euthanasia without expecting secular folks to embrace the meaning of redemptive suffering.
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Sarcelle said:
I still struggle with this so I can’t blame non-Christians who are new to the concept of redemptive suffering.

For someone who has no fully developed notion of redemptive suffering I can understand why they would want to end it all.
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Every time I hear about redemptive suffering I think about the toddlers, who have to endure the very bad pain of teething. It is a normal, natural event, which has no special “redemptive” good side associated with it. It is not something that is logically necessary. So it is the perfect example of logically unnecessary pain and suffering. And “evil” is to cause or allow unnecessary pain and suffering.

The problem with this tread is that no one wishes to tackle the problem itself. They keep on talking about the possible abuses, which is a totally different question. Of course it is a valid question, which needs to be addressed on its own right, but it is still just an attempt to derail the actual problem.

Addition:

A joke, but a serious one.

The young boy scout goes home, and his father asks him, what kind of good deed did he perform toady. The kid proudly answers: “I and five of my friends helped an old man cross a busy street!”. The father says: “Very nice of you, but why did you need your five friends?”. The kid answers: “Because the old bugger did not want to cross the street!!”.

Think about it. Don’t force your “help” on those who do not want it! Respect their wishes!
 
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Okay, a big problem with assisted suicide / PAS / euthanasia laws IS the abuse that may very well occur. The slippery sloped wherein doctors are killing their patients against the will of the patient or family.

Aside from the abuse of the laws, the problem for Catholics is that euthanasia is against the teaching of the Church.
How do you resolve that in your mind, @macska? Can you please answer and not ignore?
Lots on the USCCB website regarding euthanasia:
http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/end-of-life/euthanasia/index.cfm

Here is another consideration:
A leading hospice physician in the Netherlands writes: “Accepting euthanasia or assisted suicide as a normal medical practice for some cases of unacceptable suffering assumes that the process will be controllable... Regulation has proved to be difficult if not impossible and is fraught with danger. It also serves to stifle creativity in palliative care and even to make proper care impossible to achieve. ”The physician recounts that he once had to explain to a colleague how to relieve a bowel obstruction that was causing great distress for a cancer patient. “Usually I solve this kind of problem by euthanasia,” the colleague explained, but in this case the patient did not accept euthanasia. The author comments: “The physician’s remark that he usually solves such problems with euthanasia is disturbing. It illustrates how euthanasia becomes a substitute for learning how to relieve the suffering of dying patients. Ordinarily physicians learn more from their patients than from books. By endangering this process, euthanasia has consequences not only for a particular patient, but also for the quality of care in general.” Z. Zylicz, “Palliative Care and Euthanasia in the Netherlands: Observations of a Dutch Physician,” in K. Foley and H. Hendin, The Case Against Assisted Suicide: For the Right to End-of-Life Care (Johns Hopkins University Press 2002), 122-43 at 140-41, 142
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Loud-living-dogma said:
Okay, a big problem with assisted suicide / PAS / euthanasia laws IS the abuse that may very well occur.
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But that is not against the practice, it is against the abuse of the practice.
Loud-living-dogma said:
Aside from the abuse of the laws, the problem for Catholics is that euthanasia is against the teaching of the Church.
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I understand, but it is irrelevant for me.
Loud-living-dogma said:
How do you resolve that in your mind, @macska? Can you please answer and not ignore?
Lots on the USCCB website regarding euthanasia:
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I cannot. Of course I keep the label “catholic”, since I was baptized as such, but I don’t practice it, and at best I am a CINO. 😉

You see, I do respect my fellow human’s decision as long as they respect others. I am a firm believer of the negative version of the golden rule (and to a lesser extent the positive version, too, as long as it is not abused). I do not believe that I am more qualified to make decision for you, than you yourself. That is called respect. If you are about to make a bad decision, I would ask you if you are interested in my opinion, and if you would be interested, I would gladly offer it, but only as long as you care to hear it. As soon as you would tell me to stop, I would stop. Again, it is called RESPECT.

Just read that little joke about the boy-scout, and share your opinion with me. I am very much interested.
 
macska said:
But that is not against the practice, it is against the abuse of the practice.
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Okay.

I respect your view.

I, and some of the others, have noted some of the possibilities for abuse that can occur.

My take is that we can’t have the practice without some potential for abuse.

Specifically, it might not truly be the person’s own decision, even if the person thinks it is. It might be, as I said, the spouse persuading the person to do it so the spouse won’t have to take care of them, or some greedy relative hoping to get some of their money.
 
signit said:
I, and some of the others, have noted some of the possibilities for abuse that can occur.

My take is that we can’t have the practice without some potential for abuse.
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I agree. The potential is there, but it is not an ironclad, logical corollary. Let’s differentiate the potential and the actual (as Aquinas does).
signit said:
Specifically, it might not truly be the person’s own decision, even if the person thinks it is. It might be, as I said, the spouse persuading the person to do it so the spouse won’t have to take care of them, or some greedy relative hoping to get some of their money.
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That is also a possibility. We are always subject to external opinions and maybe even pressures. But as long as we have the “free will” to make our own decisions, those decisions should be respected.
 
Do not fear. Pray to God. Killing the old and infirm is killing. Doctors should save lives not end them. The false idea that man is in charge is false. Your body is not your own.
 
It’s true that an assisted suicide law can be abused. It’s also true that laws that allow the death penalty can be abused. I’m sure that a number of people have been executed who were innocent because they had a bad lawyer or the jury was biased against them because of their race, etc., etc. But a lot of people in this forum don’t seem to have a problem with the death penalty.
 
I hate pain. Truly. My pain tolerance is pathetic. My husband & even my kids tease me about it. So I see the appeal in what’s this man did. He saw the road ahead of him & knew it was going to get more and more arduous and that there would be no lasting relief until he exited this earth. Why not wrap things up relatively painlessly & bow out before the going gets excruciating?! Here’s why:

Excruciating = ex- through; crucis- cross.

This is what man chose for himself at the Fall: a world with the cross. With pain, suffering, death, disunity, division, and discord. Discord among men, within man himself, and inside the soul. It’s not pretty. We each reaffirm our love of this “style” every time we sin.

Ex. Crucis.

Christ can to redeem us from the ultimate consequence of our fallen choice… but he did it while obeying the “rules of the game” we said we wanted at the Fall. He could have skirted around them. He could have redeemed us with a snap, a sneeze, or a glorious poof of golden glitter (which some may find worse than crucifixion, but I digress.) Meditate on the temptations of satan in the desert & note how they were appeals to Christ to do just what Mr. Fuller did: bow out of the really bitter aspects of this ol’ human experience. Go to God in a more comfortable way. Skip the ex-crucis.

But Christ resisted. He lived in our world. In our poverty. In our divisive, broken, pathetic society. And he died by the cross.

These “laws of fallen nature” - not designed by God, but allowed by Him & chosen by mankind at the Fall - bind us all & Christ let them bind him too. Why? Because he respects our freedom.

We have to be so careful! Those who promote assisted suicide often say they are respecting the patient’s freedom, too. But what does it mean to respect freedom? Are we free when we team up with the one who lured Christ to turn stones to bread to privately slake his own personal hunger & cast himself from the Temple to wow everyone while saving himself from the obvious catastrophe nature’s laws would inflict after such all? Are we MORE FREE if we find ways to do these things??

The ancients said yes. They found “dignified” ways around the ex-crucis at the end of their lives…

Jesus said no & used his ex-crucis as his path to the Father.

To me the ultimate questions are -
Which of these individuals shall we follow? Does it matter?
And if it does matter… is it really respectful or kind to look the other way & just shrug when a brother is preparing to make a different choice?
 
We are required to warn others, Catholic or not.

Ezekiel 33:8

New International Version
When I say to the wicked, ‘You wicked person, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak out to dissuade them from their ways, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood.

New Living Translation
If I announce that some wicked people are sure to die and you fail to tell them to change their ways, then they will die in their sins, and I will hold you responsible for their deaths.

English Standard Version
If I say to the wicked, O wicked one, you shall surely die, and you do not speak to warn the wicked to turn from his way, that wicked person shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.
 
Oh dear. Well, maybe it would be helpful for you to state on your profile “non-practicing Catholic” or “Catholic in name only”. That would help clarify where you are coming from.

I"m going to quote your joke:
"The young boy scout goes home, and his father asks him, what kind of good deed did he perform toady. The kid proudly answers: “I and five of my friends helped an old man cross a busy street!”. The father says: “Very nice of you, but why did you need your five friends?”. The kid answers: “Because the old bugger did not want to cross the street!!”.

Think about it. Don’t force your “help” on those who do not want it! Respect their wishes!"
Honestly your joke does not seem to apply to not having the legal option to commit suicide in some form.
I think that your joke is more akin to forcing optional fruitless medical treatment on people who are dying.
That is not required for Catholics - - to choose optional medical treatment when they are already very ill. Some things you might enjoy reading:
Most medical treatment received during the course of one’s lifetime is routine and does not raise serious moral questions. Sometimes, however, medical circumstances require considerable reflection about what procedures are appropriate for a given medical condition and time of life. When aggressive and experimental methods are recommended by a physician, the Church teaches that we are free to pursue such treatment whenever there is a reasonable hope of benefit to the patient. We are also free, however, to refuse treatment that is of dubious benefit or when its burdens are clearly greater than its benefits. …

For those who have lost their faith in God, the suffering and helplessness of serious illness make little sense. Some may even come to contemplate suicide or euthanasia. Why should one endure the pain of illness when death is the end of all meaning and purpose? Others who accept the existence of God wrongly believe that He does not care whether we shorten our lives. The immorality of harming the great good of human life, however, should be apparent even to those without faith."
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Should be apparent, but I guess it's not. This website has a wealth of information. If you're going to represent yourself as Catholic anywhere, you might want to read up, so you can make arguments that might make sense.
https://www.ncbcenter.org/publications/end-life-guide/
 
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