Normalizing suicide

[ATraveller]

A Powell River, B.C., man with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) opted for a medically assisted death last Tuesday after years of struggling to fund 24-hour care that kept him close to his son.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/als-bc-man-medically-assisted-death-1.5244731

Remember, this isn’t basic healthcare but abortion is. Taxpayers are forced to pay for elective abortions but not ill people. And so a man in Canada was forced to kill himself. Shame on my country.

 

[OddBird]

We are always subject to external opinions and maybe even pressures. But as long as we have the “free will” to make our own decisions, those decisions should be respected.

Even without greedy relatives, I really question the “free will” of making these decisions in a society which idolizes fitness, youth and productivity, which sees aging as a disgrace, which confines elderly people in nursing homes, and which thinks of people who can do nothing as “useless” and a financial burden.

 

[Thorolfr]

macska:

We are always subject to external opinions and maybe even pressures. But as long as we have the “free will” to make our own decisions, those decisions should be respected.

Even without greedy relatives, I really question the “free will” of making these decisions in a society which idolizes fitness, youth and productivity, which sees aging as a disgrace, which confines elderly people in nursing homes, and which thinks of people who can do nothing as “useless” and a financial burden.

But if someone is choosing assisted suicide because they are suffering from a painful and terminal illness, most likely they’re doing it to avoid their own suffering, not because they’re sad that they’re not fit and beautiful anymore.

 

[OddBird]

I’m convinced the way society defines “normality” (fit and beautiful) also defines, by contrast, sickness and consecutive death as horrible and undignified, and thus as something to avoid.

It’s not that people are sad that they’re not fit and beautiful anymore, it’s that they can’t accept to fall short of the normative ideal of being “productive” and “useful” and are feeling as a burden to their families and to society. I see this everyday in elderly homes where I’m a chaplain. An 80-something year old lady once told me that she was so desperate at feeling useless she wished assisted suicide was possible just for old age reasons, and that she thought people should be killed before they get old. That is what society propagates, and it is the work of the Father of Lies.

In the case of a painful terminal illness, I’m certainly not saying pain is not real, and not both frightening and, in some cases, unbearable. But when society tries to convince us that assisted suicide is the only way out of suffering and the fear of an undignified death, as it is increasingly doing where I live, it is a lie.

I wrote this upthread about suffering and palliative care :

I live in a country, Switzerland, which has legalized assisted suicide.

I also happen to know a number of medical professionals and chaplains who work in palliative care.

Their unanimous witness is that people who enter palliative care with an urgent, imperative demand for assisted suicide change their minds after one day or two. Because they’re not in pain any longer. Because they thought they would die a horrible and undignified death, and palliative care restores their dignity, showers them with care, beauty, attention, and because they find meaning again in living their last weeks to the full (or to the fullest they can).

Pain and fear of (often imagined and anticipated) evils have a way to twist perspective and disconnect people from reality, and prevent them from making a real choice.

 

[Frankie65]

I also happen to know a number of medical professionals and chaplains who work in palliative care.

Their unanimous witness is that people who enter palliative care with an urgent, imperative demand for assisted suicide change their minds after one day or two. Because they’re not in pain any longer. Because they thought they would die a horrible and undignified death, and palliative care restores their dignity, showers them with care, beauty, attention, and because they find meaning again in living their last weeks to the full (or to the fullest they can).

This is an incredibly important quote re situation in Switzerland. Thanks Oddbird. Great evidence

 

[OddBird]

Thank you.

Bur for a full picture, I should add that many resist entering palliative care. From what I know, the reasons are varied : a (unfounded) fear of palliative care, a resistance to relinquish control of the time of the death, a militant choice out of conviction, and many others.

A Reformed pastor friend recently told me how she was asked to be present at the assisted suicide of one of her parishioners, who had a cancer but who was yet neither in pain nor in terminal stage. The parishioner had chosen to plan her death according to the vacation schedule of her airline pilot son. My friend is still reeling from it.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

I will posit that even at the end of life, we still have the responsibility not to leave a big mess behind, or to pave the way for innocent people to be deprived of their lives.

And assisted suicide leaves the bad example behind, normalizes the experience, and puts pressure on others to not be a “burden” to other people.
And if at least one post upthread is to be taken seriously , puts a cheap and phony obligation on family members to come witness it or be considered “mean”.

So I’m afraid it is a selfish act, even if they person is in pain.

 

[jeannetherese]

We are our Creators’ creations.

 

[jeannetherese]

But if someone is choosing assisted suicide because they are suffering from a painful and terminal illness, most likely they’re doing it to avoid their own suffering, not because they’re sad that they’re not fit and beautiful anymore.

How do you know this to be the case, Thorolfr?

 

[Jen7]

Thanks for this personal story! May I also highly recommend the book “Being Mortal” by a secular doctor. It touches on these same topics, including assisted death, and draws just the conclusion you mention here. The author’s medical perspective is very persuasive.

 

[Jen7]

Bur for a full picture, I should add that many resist entering palliative care. From what I know, the reasons are varied : a (unfounded) fear of palliative care, a resistance to relinquish control of the time of the death, a militant choice out of conviction, and many others.

It is unfortunate publicity re: assisted suicide is taking the place of reassurance regarding the benefits of palliative care. Perhaps some of these fears could be calmed instead of hightened until self-imposed death seems preferable! ray:t2:

 

[Thorolfr]

No amount of palliative care is going to help people who know that they’re going crazy because of dementia. And I do know people who suffer from chronic depression that has been going on for a decade or more and doesn’t respond either to antidepressants or therapy. Palliative care can’t fix that kind of mental pain. I honestly don’t know what to tell people in that kind of situation since I’ve never suffered from depression.

 

[Thorolfr]

So I’m afraid it is a selfish act, even if they person is in pain.

It kind of depends on how much pain they’re in. How can any of us know how much pain someone else can bear? Should we demand that they bear that pain just out of consideration of our feelings? Maybe we’re the selfish ones for demanding that of them.

 

[OddBird]

And if at least one post upthread is to be taken seriously , puts a cheap and phony obligation on family members to come witness it or be considered “mean”.

Exactly. And then there are the psychological consequences for the relatives, and how difficult it is to grieve when you have been told “It’s my choice, don’t be sad”.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Should we demand that they bear that pain just out of consideration of our feelings?

For our feelings? No.

For the safety of others? Yes.

Because once you allow for legalized euthanasia, there’s no way you can put the brakes on the spreading of it.

And yeah. I know. At this point about ten posters will jump in and say “but it will only be for the competent people who asked for it! It will never spread! We swear!”

But if the brakes couldn’t be put on it in the past, it’s sheer insanity to pretend we could control it today.

 

[graciew]

And how it spreads from society to society also . No matter how far removed from those ideas, it takes very little to bring them in first, and look for arguments later. Thoughtless copy pastes for no purpose.
We have experienced this with more than one issue.

 

[OddBird]

No amount of palliative care is going to help people who know that they’re going crazy because of dementia. And I do know people who suffer from chronic depression that has been going on for a decade or more and doesn’t respond either to antidepressants or therapy.

This is going to be a bit off-topic, I’m sorry.

I can’t comment on depression either; there will probably be someone better qualified than me to do so.

But with regards to dementia, and as someone who both is a chaplain to people with dementia and has a loved one currently going through the last stages of Alzheimer’s, I really want to upheld and affirm the value of life with dementia.

Are you aware of Alzheimer’s validation therapy ?

It is a method of communicating with people with Alzheimer’s who seem usually locked in their own world developed by Naomi Feil.

What is particularly interesting about it is that she both demonstrates that communication is possible, and that what seems to an outsider like erratic behavior (repetitive gestures, for example) actually means something. One of the things the approach postulates is that in the near perspective of death, Alzheimer’s patients revisit “unfinished” important episodes from their lives to give it a form of closure, and be able to die in peace. If this is true, then it is crucial that Alzheimer’s patients are given the time to go through the process.

There is still a lot we don’t know about Alzheimer’s, and dementia in general, but it looks like there is much more to it than just a dark night of the mind or craziness.

 

[Sarcelle]

Abortion, euthanasia as health care? What a perversion of the concept.

God have mercy on us.

 

[signit]

It’s true that an assisted suicide law can be abused. It’s also true that laws that allow the death penalty can be abused. I’m sure that a number of people have been executed who were innocent because they had a bad lawyer or the jury was biased against them because of their race, etc., etc. But a lot of people in this forum don’t seem to have a problem with the death penalty.

Just to address the death penalty for the moment, and to differentiate it:

I am not a particularly enthusiastic supporter of the death penalty, for the same reason: the possibility of making a mistake and executing the wrong person.

Yes, that would be terrible . . . but, as my cousin used to say, if the guilty person is not executed there’s always a chance they could kill again.

Whereas with assisted suicide there isn’t this public safety consideration.

 

[Jen7]

Are you aware of Alzheimer’s validation therapy ?

It is a method of communicating with people with Alzheimer’s who seem usually locked in their own world developed by Naomi Feil.

Omgosh, I cried my way through that clip! How beautiful. Just beautiful. I wish there was an order of religious sisters to care for the dying and learn from this woman!