Not By Faith Alone

[myfavoritmartin]

Maybe what is said about all of us getting crowns is true.

There is a vast difference between the salvation for the lost,and the doctrine of rewards for believers.
Salvation is a gift (Eph.2:8-9)Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast. ,not of works.Rewards are according to the works of the believer,any believer on either side of the ;pulpit or podium.(Matt.16:27)Mat 16:7 They discussed this among themselves and said, “It is because we didn’t bring any bread.”
. Every believer will be rewarded according to his own labor **(1 Cor.3:8-15) *vs 8.1Cr 3:8 The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor.
1Cr 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
1Cr 3:10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds.
1Cr 3:11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
1Cr 3:13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work.
1Cr 3:14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
1Cr 3:15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames
The believer has two types of building materials 1)eternal or temporal, vs.12^;( 2 Cor.4:18)>
2Cr 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
. Only the believer building on eternal materials will receive a reward. The “wood,hay,straw” works will be destroyed at the “Judgement Seat of Christ” 2 Cor .5;10. 2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Some believers Will be ashamed at the Judgement Seat of Christ. **1 Jn.2;28 1Jo 2:28 And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
. Some will be saved,but with few works of value to the Lord 1 Cor.3;15. 1Cr 3:15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
FIRST Crown, The Crown of Life James1;12
Jam 1:12 Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.
…Secondly, The Crown Imperishable, 1 Cor. 9;24-27
1Cr 9:24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
1Cr 9:25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.
1Cr 9:26 Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air.
1Cr 9:27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Thirdly, The Crown of Rejoicing, 1 Thess.2;19-20,
1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you?
1Th 2:20 Indeed, you are our glory and joy

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Fourthly, The Crown of Righteousness, 2Tim. 4:5-8,
2Ti 4:5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.
2Ti 4:6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
2Ti 4:8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day–and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
Fifthly, The Crown of Glory, 1 Peter 5:2-5 .
1Pe 5:2 Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, serving as overseers–not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve;
1Pe 5:3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.
1Pe 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
1Pe 5:5 Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because,“God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”*
This is a challenge for all of us as believers to.give our lives to the Lord as a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1-2),
Rom 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God–this is your spiritual act of worship.
Rom 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.*

Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will.

not living for what we want,but what God wants.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Still awaiting response to my post #75.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

There is a vast difference between the salvation for the lost,and the doctrine of rewards for believers.
Salvation is a gift (Eph.2:8-9)Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast. ,not of works.Rewards are according to the works of the believer,any believer on either side of the ;pulpit or podium.(Matt.16:27)For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. ”
. Every believer will be rewarded according to his own labor **(1 Cor.3:8-15) *vs 8.1Cr 3:8 The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor.
1Cr 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
1Cr 3:10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds.
1Cr 3:11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
1Cr 3:13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work.
1Cr 3:14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
1Cr 3:15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames
The believer has two types of building materials 1)eternal or temporal, vs.12^;( 2 Cor.4:18)>
2Cr 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
. Only the believer building on eternal materials will receive a reward. The “wood,hay,straw” works will be destroyed at the “Judgement Seat of Christ” 2 Cor .5;10. 2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Some believers Will be ashamed at the Judgement Seat of Christ. **1 Jn.2;28 1Jo 2:28 And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
. Some will be saved,but with few works of value to the Lord 1 Cor.3;15. 1Cr 3:15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
FIRST Crown, The Crown of Life James1;12
Jam 1:12 Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.
…Secondly, The Crown Imperishable, 1 Cor. 9;24-27
1Cr 9:24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
1Cr 9:25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.
1Cr 9:26 Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air.
1Cr 9:27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Thirdly, The Crown of Rejoicing, 1 Thess.2;19-20,
1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you?
1Th 2:20 Indeed, you are our glory and joy

Corrected the verse matt 16:27 not 16:7

 

[Nicene]

Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will.

not living for what we want,but what God wants.

Test Gods will?

If you really want to know Gods will just talk to him and ask him. Then again his will is fairly obvious and summed up in one command:

Agapate alleilelou.

Fulfill this and you do it all.

The purchasing rewards (crowns) in heaven stuff is a man made doctrine with no biblical basis. Doing Gods will to get a reward and not for love of your Father is , no offense, warped.

That isn’t Agape love, that is self love.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Still awaiting response to my post #75.

Shall I go back to the beginning and slow my post down or dumb it up, I’ve explained Jam 2:24 at least 5 times… and posted my pov ad nauseum.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Test Gods will?

Don’t twist my words…

The purchasing rewards (crowns) in heaven stuff is a man made doctrine with no biblical basis.

See that black pot sitting in front of you? What color is it Nicene? Oh its white… I see… Couldn’t be much clearer, I took 2 hours accumulating that information, straight from the bible.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Shall I go back to the beginning and slow my post down or dumb it up, I’ve explained Jam 2:24 at least 5 times… and posted my pov ad nauseum.

Could you… some of us aren’t nearly as arrogant as you.

Ohh I mean smart. I think. Maybe it is the first one. anyway…

Do you have to be smart to understand the bible like you?

I’d rather understand it as God wants us to. That why he gave us the Catholic Church isn’t it.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Could you… some of us aren’t nearly as arrogant as you.

Ohh I mean smart. I think. Maybe it is the first one. anyway…

Do you have to be smart to understand the bible like you?

I’d rather understand it as God wants us to. That why he gave us the Catholic Church isn’t it.

Your comments/questions clearly belong in a thread about universal authority, not here.

If I’ve time I’ll go through and summarize this eve. giving yes or no answers to the posed questions doesn’t work…
My apologies if you feel I come across arogant just because our point of views differ.

 

[Nicene]

The reward for doing Gods will is:

21: His master said to him, `Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’

and:

31: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32: Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
33: and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
34: Then the King will say to those at his right hand, Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35: for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36: I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37: Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
38: And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
39: And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’
40: And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’

Notice the above is the reward of eternal life (v46 below). not purchasing rewards and crowns

41: Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42: for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43: I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44: Then they also will answer, Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’
45: Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’
46: And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Notice also what happens to the widked and slothful servant:

26: But his master answered him, `You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed, and gather where I have not winnowed?

and:

21: "Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22: On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23: And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

V46 sums of what the reward is. Doing Gods will is fairly simple if you truly love him v35,36. Notice these are the righteous. Their reward? Eternal life. Not a seperate crown of righteousness. Notice the one who does Gods will in V21, and 23. Entering into the joy of their master, Eternal life.

If you truly knew God you would do these things because they truly make God happy, when we fulfil his will and command because we Agape him. We don’t fulfil his will to get something, that’s not agape it’s self indulgent love. Self interest over interest of others. Which is exactly what agape love is: benevolent, sacrificial, caring for the needs of others love. This is what Christ did, this is what is expected of a Son of God.

Any other love is not Gods command, certainly not self obsorbed love to get stuff. Will you find this offensive? Probably, but truth is truth.

Note also in the above there is no mention, however hard it’s looked for of other rewards than eternal life with God. Read v46 very closely.

John tells us flat out, no holds barred what our reward is:

24: Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25: And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.

1: See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are.

Are you a son of God? Jesus was lowly and humble of heart, not seeking glory and riches. He helped others because he loved them (agape) not to get rich. He gave his life for his friends because he loved them. There is no greater love.

This is what it means to be a son of God. Are you one, or a reward seeker?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Redbandito]

My friend, you know as well as I that you are taking this verse out of context, for if not the bible would contradict itself.

Here is the response to that verse to help clarify for you…
Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Martin, ever consider that it is YOU that is taking the verses out of context? All the verses you cited tell us that we must have faith to be saved. That’s great! We all believe that! What they never say is that this faith must be ALONE, which is the point of this thread. You have made a false dichotomy. You think it is either faith OR works. Whereas Catholics and the Scripture say that it is by faith AND works (not works of the law as Paul talks about, but works that are the product of God’s sanctifying grace). Every writer in the Scripture agrees on this point. There is no dichotomy made, but the artificial one inserted by Martin Luther and his predecessors. Faith Alone is a man-made, unScriptural tradition. It is heresy.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Shall I go back to the beginning and slow my post down or dumb it up, I’ve explained Jam 2:24 at least 5 times… and posted my pov ad nauseum.

Excuse me. Perhaps you didn’t notice (or intentionally overlooked) the fact that I posted multiple verses in #75.

I’ll try to extract your reasoning about James 2:24 from previous posts, but you’ve failed to interact with the other verses I offered.

Don’t be rude.

 

[Redbandito]

By true faith, do you mean saving faith;
In order for faith to be saving faith, it must have the proper content (i.e., conviction of sin, trust in God and Jesus Christ as savior) and it must be God-given (Rom. 12:3,6; Gal. 3:23; Eph. 2:8), residing in a regenerate heart (cf. Rom. 10:8-10). The difficulty for us as modern Christians reading the Bible is that the Bible itself does not clearly indicate what kind of faith it is talking about in all instances.

Consider, for example, John 2:23-25. There we learn that Jesus did not entrust himself to those who believed in him, and that he withheld himself from them because he knew them. Another way to describe these people is to say that they were “believers” who did not have saving faith. The point is simply that what the Bible calls “belief” or “faith” isn’t exactly the same was what modern Christians mean when they use these terms. It also applies these terms to people that have false faith in the gospel, and to people who have faith in a false gospel

I love the qualifiers you used for the unScriptural term “saving faith.” You left a couple out though: It must “express itself in love” (Gal 5:6), It must produce “good works” (Eph 2:10, Jam 2:24, Mt 7:21-23, 25:21-46, Rom 2:5-11), it must lead to baptism (Jn 3:3-5, 1 Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38), and it must be accompanied by repentance (Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19, Lk 3:8, Lk 13:3-5, 2 Cor 7:9-10). So, if you are going to say that “faith” has some qualifiers, you might want to include them ALL. Again, I would point to you as the one who has taken the Scripture out of context and made it to contradict itself. Nowhere does the Scripture teach “Faith Alone,” but rather “faith expressing itself through love” (Gal 5:6).

 

[Redbandito]

I like Matt Henry’s commentary;
When Paul says that a man is justified by faith, without the deeds of the law (Rom. 3:28), he plainly speaks of another sort of work than James does, but not of another sort of faith. Paul speaks of works wrought in obedience to the law of Moses, and before men’s embracing the faith of the gospel; and he had to deal with those who valued themselves so highly upon those works that they rejected the gospel (as Rom. 10, at the beginning most expressly declares); but James speaks of works done in obedience to the gospel, and as the proper and necessary effects and fruits of sound believing in Christ Jesus. Both are concerned to magnify the faith of the gospel, as that which alone could save us and justify us; but Paul magnifies it by showing the insufficiency of any works of the law before faith, or in opposition to the doctrine of justification by Jesus Christ; James magnifies the same faith, by showing what are the genuine and necessary products and operations of it.

Catholics agree that we are not justified by “works of the law.” Therefore, it does not put James at odds (as you previously claimed) with the rest of the Bible, since James is clearly not talking about works of the law. James states that our faith must be accompanied by true Christian charity (i.e.works). Thus, you are essentially agreeing with the Catholic position in principle while holding onto the unScriptural terminology of “saving faith.” It is not saving faith, but “faith WORKING through love,” that the Scripture teaches.

 

[Redbandito]

James is clearly saying works are the fruits of our faith.

This is a distinction without a difference. Our works are the fruit of “grace” which comes through faith, but they are NECESSARY fruits. That seems to be the point that evades you. YES, works are the product of grace through faith, but without them, we are not “justified,” as James makes quite clear. Thus, you are merely proving the Catholic position. Thanks!

 

[Redbandito]

Consider, for example, John 2:23-25. There we learn that Jesus did not entrust himself to those who believed in him, and that he withheld himself from them because he knew them. Another way to describe these people is to say that they were “believers” who did not have saving faith. The point is simply that what the Bible calls “belief” or “faith” isn’t exactly the same was what modern Christians mean when they use these terms. It also applies these terms to people that have false faith in the gospel, and to people who have faith in a false gospel

There’s that false dichotomy. Nobody here believes we are saved by works APART from faith. Faith is obviously required. It is just not ALL that is required.

 

[Redbandito]

And following the HS’s guidance helps us achieve salvation?
That is an awfully high opinion of humans ability. Don’t ya think?

Not really. It is just that you possess a very low opinion of God’s grace. God’s grace is so amazing that it can literally take our pathetic human ability, and make us able. That is the magnificence of God’s grace! You seem to miss that. How sad.

On another note, it would help if you would stop talking past everybody responding to you. You have not even attempted to address a response, but insist on wrecklessly throwing verses out that continue to prove OUR point. Nobody believes we are justified by the law. You clearly don’t understand Catholic theology. At this point, a little intellectual humility would be appreciated. If you’re having a tough time, try praying for it.

 

[Nicene]

Not really. It is just that you possess a very low opinion of God’s grace. God’s grace is so amazing that it can literally take our pathetic human ability, and make us able. That is the magnificence of God’s grace! You seem to miss that. How sad.

Excellent point. The Holy Spirit (not the vainly taking of his name as HS) would teach them this if he were truly leading them:

Mt 19:26: But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

On another note, it would help if you would stop talking past everybody responding to you. You have not even attempted to address a response, but insist on wrecklessly throwing verses out that continue to prove OUR point. Nobody believes we are justified by the law. You clearly don’t understand Catholic theology. At this point, a little intellectual humility would be appreciated. If you’re having a tough time, try praying for it.

The law of ordinances Eph 2:15 vs. the law of liberty (written on our hearts 2 Cor 3:2-3, Eze 36:25-27 etc) are clearly not distinguishable by those who profess faith alone:

Jam 1:25: But he who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing.

Rom 8:6: To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
7: For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, indeed it cannot;

Rom 2:13: For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
14: When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15: They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them
16: on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Jam 1:22: But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
23: For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror;
24: for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like.

1 John 2:3: And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4: He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5: but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:
6: he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

Rev 22:14: Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.

I agree it is sad that what God has placed on the heart is not readable by some.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Randy_Carson]

Myfavoritmartin-

Okay. I’ve re-read all of this thread.

I asked why Paul never used the phrase “faith alone”. Your response: “I dunno.”

I pressed in post #20 for you to think more deeply than that. You did not respond.

Apparently to no one in particular, you posted Galatians 3 several times.

In response to another poster, you merely threw out Romans 9 without actually addressing his points.

Then we got Philippians 2:13 – again, without context or connection to any post.

Then we got Galatians 3 again. Through faith. Through faith. Through faith.

You gave us a post about the Holy Spirit…then Galatians 3 again.

I asked if Paul makes distinctions between different types of law. You answered, “He may! Does it matter?”

But just prior to that you finally addressed (in post #46) my original post #1. However, you made no real attempt to answer the question…just something about “faith alone” being implied. That’s interesting. When we Catholics talk about doctrines being “implied” in scripture, you “Bible Christians” have an absolute cow and start screaming about “traditions of men”! Is the shoe now on the other foot? I have no problem with Tradition when it’s true…I just don’t go along with a non-biblical tradition that was invented a few hundred years ago.

Then I commented that we would join you in condemning “works of the law” and asked if you would join us in commending the “law of the Spirit of life”. You did not respond.

I offered Romans 2:7 (persistence in doing good.) You quoted seemingly half the New Testament without actually explaining what you meant or why you posted all those verses.

I quoted four verses in post #75 and you went off about having explained your interpretation of James 2:24 five times already (I counted only twice), and then you offered to slow down so that (presumably) the slower folks in the class could keep up with you.

Late in the thread you’ve gotten into various disagreements with other posters that had little or nothing to do with the OP.

Now, the only thing I can see that you’ve ever said directly about James 2:24 is this (and I quote in full)

“Here is the response to that verse to help clarify for you…John 14:12 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
So let’s put James and John side-by-side:

“You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24)

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Help me out here, MFM.

Exactly how does John 14:12 – which talks about someone who believes in Jesus **doing the works **that Jesus does and even greater works – teach us that we are justified by faith alone?

It seems to me that faith and works are joined inseparably. In fact, “faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.” (James 2:17 NIV)

Or if you prefer another translation, ”Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (KJV)

“Without works, faith alone is dead.” (my paraphrase)

Finally, since you seem to have such a strong dislike of “works”, may I ask you what “works” you find so disagreeable? In particular, what “works” do you think we Catholics are doing in an effort “earn” our salvation?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Finally, since you seem to have such a strong dislike of “works”, may I ask you what “works” you find so disagreeable? In particular, what “works” do you think we Catholics are doing in an effort “earn” our salvation?

I’ve no problem with the term works in general, its that your church teaches Gods grace dispensed through you help you do works to bring yourself closer to salvation.( open for correcting I’m evangelic) And as I have quoted and tried to share with you, I feel the fruit of faith is works and works themselves are not a judgment of Christ (I would refer to Gal 2:21 here)
21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
Sorry if that is a repeat…aprapo!