Not By Faith Alone

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mikeledes said:
That’s right! We cannot do the works pleasing to God without being first justified and following the Holy Spirit’s guidance in our lives.
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And following the HS’s guidance helps us achieve salvation?
That is an awfully high opinion of humans ability. Don’t ya think?
 
mikeledes said:
How about directly responding to these verses? Your verses apply to how we first become righteous before God. These verses discuss how we remain righteous before God.

God Bless,
Michael
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Before I start my bible study tonight I’ll take a look at this, God willing.

Be back in a few hours.
 
I don’t know why Protestant seem to think that throwing out verses without responding to the ones Catholics present somehow make the Catholic verses go away or mean the exact opposite of what they’re saying. Please directly respond to the verses on works.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Randy_Carson said:
Isn’t it curious that the Apostle Paul used the word “faith” and related terms more than 200 times in the New Testament, yet he never once used the phrase “faith alone”?
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He did this because we are not ignorant, don’t make the term faith alone or sola fide more than it is, as you can see 200 time the implication of faith being the answer to salvation is repeated in the NT.
Randy_Carson said:
This seems strange considering how concerned Paul was with passing on the faith accurately and the means to justification would be among the most important truths he would preach. In fact, throughout all of his works, he goes to great lengths to choose his words with precision, so it seems odd that “faith alone” does not appear once in all of his writings.
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Share with us how Paul thinks we as humans share in the achievement of salvation, won’t you?
Randy_Carson said:
Could it be that the Holy Spirit prevented Paul from ever writing “faith alone” to describe the process of justification? And that same check prevented any of the gospel writers from ascribing “faith alone” to Jesus, either…
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He implied it 200 times. by faith are we saved I shared a bunch with you. It isn’t becoming to put your 21st century thought process to biblical times.
For you and I to get into the definition of justification would take a new thread, and we’d never find common ground.
Randy_Carson said:
In fact, the only time that the Holy Spirit allowed any author to use that infamous phrase, is when He inspired James to write, “You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24)
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An understanding of James and what he meant will be achieved if you take a bible study about James.
Randy_Carson said:
Therefore, for those who propose that Paul taught justification by faith alone, a very haunting question remains: Why didn’t Paul use the specific phrase “faith alone” anywhere in his New Testament writings?
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Justification by faith…period. dont mix up bible believing people with people whom must follow doctrines… I prefer the word of God first,middle,last…always…period, it seems you guys think the solas are doctrines, to us they aren’t, they are just what we do, that’s why what we are doing is what we want to do for Christ, that’s why what we do is right with Christ .
 
Myfavoritmartin posted:
Justification by faith…period. dont mix up bible believing people with people whom must follow doctrines… I prefer the word of God first,middle,last…always…period, it seems you guys think the solas are doctrines, to us they aren’t, they are just what we do, that’s why what we are doing is what we want to do for Christ, that’s why what we do is right with Christ .

Pardon my confusion and intrusion into this discussion, but are not “doctrines”, that is, revealed divine truths, found in the Scriptures? As to your belief being what you “do” what you want to do for Christ, isn’t that acting out your faith and justification?
How is that radically different from what the Catholic Church teaches—that in order to be right with Christ, we must act on our faith?
In Matthew’s Gospel chapter 25 are different symbols of the faithful vs. the unfaithful: wise and foolish virgins, clever servants who yield a profit for the master and a foolish servant who makes nothing of the talent(double entendre there) entrusted to him, and then the culminating image of the Last Judgment of the Lord. The sheep are the ones who showed love of Christ through love of their neighbor; the goats are those who did not, and received eternal punishment for their refusal to act on their belief.(Mt. 25:31-41)
The Catholic Church does not throw out doctrines to burden her members, but teaches with the authority of her Divine Founder. You may of course disagree that she is of heavenly origin, but since you accept and understand the Bible in that way, do not disrespect Catholics for understanding their Church that way.
Yours in Christ,
Dominicanis
 
Myfavoritmartin posted:
Justification by faith…period. dont mix up bible believing people with people whom must follow doctrines… I prefer the word of God first,middle,last…always…period, it seems you guys think the solas are doctrines, to us they aren’t, they are just what we do, that’s why what we are doing is what we want to do for Christ, that’s why what we do is right with Christ .

Pardon my confusion and intrusion into this discussion, but are not “doctrines”, that is, revealed divine truths, found in the Scriptures? As to your belief being what you “do” what you want to do for Christ, isn’t that acting out your faith and justification?
How is that radically different from what the Catholic Church teaches—that in order to be right with Christ, we must act on our faith?
In Matthew’s Gospel chapter 25 are different symbols of the faithful vs. the unfaithful: wise and foolish virgins, clever servants who yield a profit for the master and a foolish servant who makes nothing of the talent(double entendre there) entrusted to him, and then the culminating image of the Last Judgment of the Lord. The sheep are the ones who showed love of Christ through love of their neighbor; the goats are those who did not, and received eternal punishment for their refusal to act on their belief.(MT. 25:31-41)
The Catholic Church does not throw out doctrines to burden her members, but teaches with the authority of her Divine Founder. You may of course disagree that she is of heavenly origin, but since you accept and understand the Bible in that way, do not disrespect Catholics for understanding their Church that way.
Yours in Christ,
Dominicanis
 
mikeledes said:
We are incorporated into Christ by grace through faith, apart from works. We stay in Christ by grace through faith working through love (Galatians 5:6, John 15:2, 6, 1Corinthians 7:19).
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Gal 5: must be read in context…
1It is for freedom that** Christ has set us free**. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. (what’s this mean)
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.** 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value**. **The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
**
 
Dominicanis said:
Myfavoritmartin posted:
Justification by faith…period. dont mix up bible believing people with people whom must follow doctrines… I prefer the word of God first,middle,last…always…period, it seems you guys think the solas are doctrines, to us they aren’t, they are just what we do, that’s why what we are doing is what we want to do for Christ, that’s why what we do is right with Christ .
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Dominicanis said:
Pardon my confusion and intrusion into this discussion, but are not “doctrines”, that is, revealed divine truths, found in the Scriptures? As to your belief being what you “do” what you want to do for Christ, isn’t that acting out your faith and justification?
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Yes
Dominicanis said:
How is that radically different from what the Catholic Church teaches—that in order to be right with Christ, we must act on our faith?
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It’s that 1 word, as if anything we can do would justify us in Christ eye when he did everything for us.
Dominicanis said:
In Matthew’s Gospel chapter 25 are different symbols of the faithful vs. the unfaithful: wise and foolish virgins, clever servants who yield a profit for the master and a foolish servant who makes nothing of the talent(double entendre there) entrusted to him, and then the culminating image of the Last Judgment of the Lord. The sheep are the ones who showed love of Christ through love of their neighbor; the goats are those who did not, and received eternal punishment for their refusal to act on their belief.(Mt. 25:31-41)
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If you fail to have true faith, how can you see what one truly needs, when Christ is the spirit within you how do you err?
answer; only by humanly ways.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Gal 5: must be read in context…
1It is for freedom that** Christ has set us free**. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. (what’s this mean)
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.** 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value**. **The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
**
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Thank you for emphasizing that last verse because that is what I have been trying ot say all along. The only thing that counts is faith EXPRESSING itself through love. It is faith and love that counts, not faith alone. Counts for what? Based on the context of the passage, SALVATION. What is love? Keeping the commandments (2 John 6) and doing works of charity (1 John 3:17-18.)

God Bless,
Michael
 
mikeledes said:
We are incorporated into Christ by grace through faith, apart from works. We stay in Christ by grace through faith working through love (Galatians 5:6, John 15:2, 6, 1Corinthians 7:19).

Also, explain Romans 2:6-7

“Who will render to each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality, ETERNAL LIFEE.”

John 5:28

"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did good deeds to a resurrection to life….

Matthew 16:27

“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and wiill then repay every man accodring to his DEEDS.”

1 Peter 1:17

“If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each man’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during your stay on earth.”

Galatians 6:7-9

“Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; fo whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.. For the one who sows to his owm flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit REAP ETERNAL LIFE. Let us not lose heart in DOING GOOD, for in due time we will REAP (i.e. eternal life) if we do not grow weary.”

Of course the verses above apply to the justified because truly righteous acts before God can only flow out of a regenerated heart. But if a justified person fails in persevering in doing good, he/she will not enjoy the final consummation of his/her salvation, glorification. That is why the Bible states that only he who perseveres to the end will be saved. Just because we receive the capability to do good when we are regenerated by God’s grace does not mean that these works will flow automtically (2 Peter 1:8-11, John 15:2, Titus 3:14). Bearing fruit depends on an act of the will.

God Bless,
Michael
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Why is it that when I present these verses, I never get a direct response to them from Protestants? Ignoring them does make them go away or change what they say.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Myfavoriteman, I would like you to answer the following questions on James 2:24. They are basically “yes” or “no” questions, except for the second half of the second question.

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
  1. Based on your view of the context, is the faith mentioned in verse 24 genuine faith? In other words, faith that is sufficient to make us righteous before God?
  2. Is this verse talking about justification? If not, why is the word “justified” used? If it is, then why are works involved (“by works”)?
God Bless,
Michael
 
All of these questions, nyfavoritemartin, I answered. We are made righteous and freely regenerated by the grace of God through faith. True righteousness can only flow out of a heart that has been regenerated by God, not out of following the law. That is why it is God who works the desire and the will uinus to do good. Our righteous acts originate in God, not in our will. However, only if we surrender our wills to God and conform our lives to the gift of righteouusness we received we will enter into Christ’s eternal kingdom after judgement.

If we stop the flow of righteousness that comes out of a regenerated heart by resisting to do good through inactivity, we are sinning and rejecting God’s gift.

Do you belive that once we are justified we automatically practice righterousness. Do you believe that God transform us into robots and programs us to do good? If this is so, then why do true Christians sometimes fail to do what is good? Why do they sin?

God Bless,
Michael
 
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