M
mikeledes
Guest
I am now. Thanks, Mickey!Michael is not online–can you not see that?
Did you know that patience is a very great virtue?
God Bless,
Michael
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God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
The Bible always makes a distinction between faith and love. They are never interchangeable. Otherwise, why would Paul say “faith expressing itslef through love” if faith is love.
God Bless,
Michael
P.S. When will my verses be answered. I know, I know, patience is a virtue.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
It does if Paul distinguishes between laws that condemn us and the law of the Spirit of life.
“Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.” (Romans 8:1-2)
Catholics would join with you in condemning any attempt at earning salvation by works done under “the law of sin and death”.
Would you join with us in commending the works done according to “the law of the Spirit of life”?
N
noma
Guest
What some of us say is that faith must express itself as love.
Love is what distinguishes life from death, and so love is the basis by which Christ judges, love shown through following His commandments (and not the commands of the Roman Church). We must remember that when we fail, we can go to God to ask His forgiveness, and He will give it to us.
Though I believe that Christ’s judgement, though just, will also be merciful. And so God will allow all those who wish to be with Him, who would truly love Him, into heaven. Even from hell.
M
mikeledes
Guest
I’ll be back Monday, God willing, but I expect a response to these questions.
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
Mike,
You know full well we are at a stumbling block with the term justification, as we teach that justification is essentially a declaration of “not guilty” and “righteous” pronounced by God on a sinner because of Christ and His work.
Roman Catholics teach that justification involves an internal process in which a believer is transformed and “made” more and more righteous. The non-settlement of this issue will prevent us from going any further on James 2:24, and to think or act as though is wouldn’t would be being dishonest.
MFM
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Well, let’s talk about that since it really is the heart of the matter. Consider please:
“To those who **by persistence in doing good **seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” (Romans 2:7)
By persistence in doing good???
I thought it was “once saved, always saved” and “by faith alone”…this is odd…I’m not finding either of those phrases in my Strong’s Concordance.
R
runandsew
Guest
I get confused about the different beliefs on justification.
What I am reading here, is that you believe that when God justifies us, he doesn’t actually change us, he just covers our sins with the blood of Christ, while inside we are still evil and depraved, while Catholic believes that when God justifies us, He actually changes us from within.
I believe if God said that you were a cat, the next words out of your mouth would be “meow”.
N
Nicene
Guest
Paul tells us that it is faith working through “Agape” in Galatians. and in Corinthains that if he has faith enough to move mountains but has not “Agape”, he has nothing. Paul is certainly not a proponent of faith alone. Faith alone is alien to Paul and Christ. Faith without works (in Pauline terminology, Agape) is faithlessness, nothing.
What is “Agape” love?
It is also the new commandment by Christ “Agapate alleilous”.
Jesus tells us:
21: He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves (agapon) me; and he who loves (agapon) me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him."
and:
23: Jesus answered him, "If a man loves (agapa) me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him
and lastly:
24: He who does not love (agapon) me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.
1 John 2: 4: He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5: but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love (agape) for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:
6: he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
Faith alone does not walk as Jesus walked (nor Paul).
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
What is “Agape” love?
It is also the new commandment by Christ “Agapate alleilous”.
Jesus tells us:
21: He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves (agapon) me; and he who loves (agapon) me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him."
and:
23: Jesus answered him, "If a man loves (agapa) me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him
and lastly:
24: He who does not love (agapon) me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.
1 John 2: 4: He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5: but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love (agape) for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:
6: he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
Faith alone does not walk as Jesus walked (nor Paul).
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
C
CANman
Guest
Hmmmm, didn’t Jesus criticize the Scribes and Pharisees for being “beautiful to look at on the outside, but inside are full of dead mens bones”? Isn’t that essentially what you’re saying with this exterior righteousness with no change inside? Would that not be a contradiction?
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
No I am not saying that at all.
Pronounced by God unto a sinner, by the work of Christ.
N
Nicene
Guest
I have oft heard this repeated phrase yet when I search scripture nowhere do I find that myfavoritemartin (nor anyone else who claims this) was to die for the sins of the world. Nowhere does it claim that myfavoritemartin was to be crucified and shed his blood for the sins of mankind.
Nowhere does it claim that myfavoritemartin is in fact another begotten son of God born of a virgin to expaite the sins of the world.
What I do find though is that Jesus died for our sins, not in my place upon the cross (sinse I cannot find even one reference to any other person to ever be crucified, even myself):
Isaiah 53:5,6 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold
the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
That he came to put away sin and death:
26: for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27: And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment,
28: so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
What I also find is that people who place themselves on the same level as Christ, therefore making themselves Gods by claiming they were supposed to die on a cross and that Jesus beat them to it is:
24: For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
36: He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.
Nowhere does it even hint that myfavoritemartin was to die for us and Jesus beat him to it. but what is very very interesting is John 3:36 he who believes in Jesus has eternal life and the caveat that in not acknowledged is “he who does not obey the Son shall not see life” (faith alone)
What is it to be a Son of God? To walk as Jesus walked. What is it to believe in Jesus? Those who love him will obey him because that is what it is to have faith.
Does faith alone have agape love; obedience to the Father and the Son?
No.
Are these other people who claim to be other Christs, by Jesus beating them to the cross and dying in their place, instead of dying for their sins and defeating death, really other Christs who were supposed to atone for the sins of the world?
No.
Jesus died that we may be partakers of his divine nature
2 Pet 1:3: His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,
4: by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.
Please provide scripture where you are supposed to be the one on the cross who atones for the sins of the world and conquer death for us.
Please provide further scripture where you,myfavoritemartin, were to go and preach to the dead that they might believe, for:
9: "What profit is there in my death, if I go down to the Pit? Will the dust praise thee? Will it tell of thy faithfulness?
10: Dost thou work wonders for the dead? Do the shades rise up to praise thee? [Selah]
11: Is thy steadfast love declared in the grave, or thy faithfulness in Abaddon?
Can those who say Jesus died in their place upon the cross have acomplished this? Or were they to turn to dust and be preached to as the others?
Jesus did not replace you, he died for your sins that you might have life. Are you claiming to be the Son of God?
If not you may wish to amend your “Christ replaced me” theology. Unless of course you can display through scripture that your, myfavoritemartins, blood was supposed to be shed upon the cross to atone for our sins instead of Jesus’ blood.
I have yet to find a reference to any other person of being God and being human than Jesus Christ.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
Offended?
Yep!
Anything else to point out or respond to?
Nope!
Nicene, you are a troubled individual in my POV.
My prayers are with you my friend!
N
Nicene
Guest
And I for you unless you can refute any of the above or provide scripture for your theology.
Jesus did not say he replaced us on the cross in fact he said:
34: And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
Replaced on the cross? Nope.
Jesus said to pick it up.
Scripture also tells us:
Phil 2:5: Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
6: who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7: but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Adam grasped at equality with God. I’m sorry but this whole replaced me on the cross and the other doctrine oft quoted (or misquoted) “You are Gods” is the exact opposite of scripture.
Intrinsically this replacement on the cross theology grasps at equality with God.
Faith alone, as demonstrated in the other post, is also contra gospel.
If you have something concrete to offer that Jesus replaced you on the cross, other than the ad hominem above, please do so.
I will keep you in my prayers.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” (Romans 2:7)
“The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.” (Galatians 5:6) Faith is not alone here, is it? It’s tied to love.
“Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.” (Romans 1:5) Faith is not alone here, is it? It’s tied to obedience. Why “call people to obedience”??? Why not just call them to faith alone?
“You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24)
+++
Could one of our Protestant brethren explain in plain English just how you square these verses (especially James 2:24) with the doctrine of sola fide?
“The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.” (Galatians 5:6) Faith is not alone here, is it? It’s tied to love.
“Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.” (Romans 1:5) Faith is not alone here, is it? It’s tied to obedience. Why “call people to obedience”??? Why not just call them to faith alone?
“You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24)
+++
Could one of our Protestant brethren explain in plain English just how you square these verses (especially James 2:24) with the doctrine of sola fide?
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” (Romans 2:7) How does this mix judgement and salvation? “Persist” means to be “obstinately repetitious”. Therefore, the passage means that eternal life is given to those who are obstinately repetitious about doing good. There’s nothing in here about the repeating the “sinner’s prayer” or “once saved, always saved” that I can see. And just who was Paul addressing here? Unbelievers? No, he was writing to the church at Rome whose faith was “being reported all over the world.” Wow. He told people who already had faith that only by persistence in doing good would they receive eternal life. Apparently, their “faith alone” was not enough.
“The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.” (Galatians 5:6) Faith is not alone here, is it? It’s tied to love.
“Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.” (Romans 1:5) Faith is not alone here, is it? It’s tied to obedience. Why “call people to obedience”??? Why not just call them to faith alone?
“You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24)
+++
Maybe one of our Protestant brethren would explain in plain English just how you square these verses (especially James 2:24) with the doctrine of sola fide?
“The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.” (Galatians 5:6) Faith is not alone here, is it? It’s tied to love.
“Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.” (Romans 1:5) Faith is not alone here, is it? It’s tied to obedience. Why “call people to obedience”??? Why not just call them to faith alone?
“You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24)
+++
Maybe one of our Protestant brethren would explain in plain English just how you square these verses (especially James 2:24) with the doctrine of sola fide?
M
mikeledes
Guest
This reads more like a copout. Forget what the Catholic Church teaches about the nature of justification for now and please answer the questions I posed. I’m interested in reading what a Protestant would respond.
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
N
noma
Guest
Maybe what is said about all of us getting crowns is true.
But I want to make sure mine has the prettiest jewels.
But I want to make sure mine has the prettiest jewels.
- Status