Not By Faith Alone

[Jim_Baur]

Linkowski

I a loving way, are you a theologian?

It seems to me that the breastplate of Eph. 6: 14 is the same breastplate of I Thess. 5: 8.

Is this correct?

I Thess. 5: 8 … put on the breastplate of faith and love.

In conjunction with Eph. 6: 14… the breastplate of righteousness.

It seems to me, without any traditions, that righteousness’s breastplate is made up of love and faith.

Again, in your judgment, is this correct?

 

[Michael_Francis]

Split: Purgatory Debate

 

[water]

Faith comes through hearing the gospel, not tradition…

The gospel only came after the Tradition.
By not following the tradition, one does not obey the Gospel as it says right in the book.

 

[Redbandito]

Saved by a faith that works…Born of God, passed from death unto life. But continually examining myself and working for Him with great love and joy because He first loved me.

Actually, you are saved by grace through faith that works. But other than that, you sound remarkably Catholic in this statement.

 

[Redbandito]

I have addressed this before. Once saved always saved is not the same as assurance of salvation. It is not logical to say that these are the same.

There are plenty of passages in the bible that speak of knowing that we have eternal life. But as I mentioned before, there are also passages that call for us to examine ourselves and I do not take these lightly.

I will not share a testimony with you but can tell you that I was born again at a later age when I left the Catholic Church. I went from trusting in my own works for my salvation and put my faith fully in Christ and His work on the cross for my salvation. What happened after that was the work of God - the miracle of salvation that is still being accomplished through the process of sanctification. Without going into detail I will say this…

You would think that a person that believes that they must merit heaven through good works would be working hard. But, after the day that I realized God’s grace apart from works through the Word of God, I sprouted into something wonderful (still enclosed in this wicked sinful body) and am doing 1,000 times more good works (empowered by God’s grace, love, and His Holy Spirit) than when I thought I had to, in some way, merit salvation. Doesn’t make sense, but the truth is…Christ is the way to Holiness…Holiness is not the way to Christ.

Glory to God - for this unspeakable gift.
I was spiritually blind but now see, I was spiritually deaf but now hear, I was spiritually mute but now speak, I was spiritually dead but now alive, I was spiritually lame but now walk. Praise God!!

Romans 8:35-39 KJV 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Craig,

You have addressed this before. YET, you continue to argue for once saved, always saved anyway. If you want to argue for “Assurance of Salvation” alone, apart from the faith/works controversy and Once saved, Always saved, fine. However, you have not done that on this thread.

 

[Redbandito]

For once saved always saved…you must be saved in this case.
For assurance of salvation…You could be saved or not saved…some have “assurance” (so-to-speak) and are not saved and some have assurance that are saved. This makes perfect logic. And those who are truly saved are always saved according to scripture. Just because your Pastor said they were the same thing does not mean they are the same thing. They are clearly not the same."

What? Perfect logic? That’s the most confused and illogical statement I have ever heard. For, if it is possible to have “assurance” and be wrong, then to have assurance is no assurance at all, because I can be WRONG! Craig, you have received some poor information brother. This is not only contra-logic, it is unBiblical.

And you see, there you go again arguing once saved, always saved. If you don’t want to talk about it, and you want to focus on “assurance of salvation,” then stop talking about it.

 

[Redbandito]

I will go ahead and forgive you for your false accusations.

I was born again after leaving the Catholic Church…by the power of the Word of God - the gospel of Christ. I was justified by faith, born of God, passed from death unto life…

1 Peter 1:23 KJV 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Luke 8:5 KJV 5 A sower went out to sow his seed…
John 15:3 KJV 3 Now ye are clean **through the word **which I have spoken unto you.
Psalms 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

And once saved - always saved…

Hebrews 3:6 NAS95 6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house–whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Hebrews 3:14 NAS95 14 For **we have become **partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

John 8:31 NAS95 31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

What these scriptures say is that - if we are in Christ/**have become **partakers with Christ, we will persevere. Notice - it does not say that we will become IF…

1 John 5:4 NAS95 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.

Yes, we are commanded to be certain of our election and we are commanded to keep the faith/examine ourselves (which I have explained that I do) but then God prophetically speaks and says that those who have been born of God **will overcome **and persevere.

Trust Christ alone today for your salvation.

I will pray for you.

So that’s it Craig? You’re just going to keep re-posting the same propaganda despite the fact that it has already been answered on multiple occasions? You keep repeating this false argument that the Catholic Church teaches that we “trust in our own works,” yet you have not even attempted to prove this by any Catholic authority. Catholics have corrected you. You have ignored them. That’s disappointing for a supposedly “open” Christian brother.

 

[Linkowski]

The repeating is in hopes that you might see - but you seem dull of hearing. The logic is clear but you won’t see it. Notice that I said won’t. You are not seekign the truth and are twisting the truth to match what you want to believe. That is the only explanation for you not seeing the clarity of all of the once saved always saved scriptures. I will pray that God might open your eyes…but it may be too late.

God Help You,

Craig L.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

The repeating is in hopes that you might see - but you seem dull of hearing. The logic is clear but you won’t see it. Notice that I said won’t. You are not seekign the truth and are twisting the truth to match what you want to believe. That is the only explanation for you not seeing the clarity of all “TRUE”(edited due to half truth) scriptures. I will pray that God might open your eyes…but it may be too late.

God Help You,

Craig L.

Could you repeat that in front of a mirror; It may sink in. But you’d have to be willing to listen and set aside your pride.

If it’s God’s will, it will happen.

 

[Church_Militant]

The repeating is in hopes that you might see - but you seem dull of hearing. The logic is clear but you won’t see it. Notice that I said won’t. You are not seekign the truth and are twisting the truth to match what you want to believe. That is the only explanation for you not seeing the clarity of all of the once saved always saved scriptures. I will pray that God might open your eyes…but it may be too late.

God Help You,

Craig L.

C’mon Craig, cut us a break with all that stuff willya? I mean really. The very same thing can be believed and asserted to you by Catholics, and in fact I personally believe that I was deceived by the n-Cs that taught me, especially when I look back at what they taught in the context of a better knowledge of the Word of God as well as the history of Christianity.

I don’t care what you say, I have studied to show myself approved unto God and the result is that I am firmly convinced of the fullness of truth of the Catholic faith.

You may not be able to see or comprehend it, but the fact is that your arguments are unconvincing Biblically, regardless of what you think of them.

You sound like so many of the n-Cs/a-Cs that come in here and get all frustrated because they can’t bring the Catholic Church crumbling down using the very same (or varients on a theme of) errant arguments that have been preached for the last 500 years. They were refuted then and they are still refuted today, by Catholics who know what we believe and why.

Honestly Craig, you need to consider that you may have been decieved by people waving a Bible and spouting verses when you yourself knew little of the Word of God and less still about our most holy faith. That’s how it happened to me.:bible1:

Please be willing to consider both sides objectively, as I did. The rest I leave in the capable hands of the Holy Spirit.
Pax tecum,

 

[Redbandito]

The repeating is in hopes that you might see - but you seem dull of hearing. The logic is clear but you won’t see it. Notice that I said won’t. You are not seekign the truth and are twisting the truth to match what you want to believe. That is the only explanation for you not seeing the clarity of all of the once saved always saved scriptures. I will pray that God might open your eyes…but it may be too late.

God Help You,

Craig L.

So what you are saying is that you really LIED when you came here saying you were open to the Catholic faith. Hmmmmm. I am disappointed to hear that you feel dishonesty is a legitimate means for spreading the “Gospel,” or at least the “Gospel according to Craig.” The reality is nobody in here is twisting the truth but you. I am always open to truth. I merely disagree with your exegesis. I think you misunderstand large portions of the Scripture. I think you use unChristian tactics, like dishonesty to spread the “truth” as you see it. I think you twist Scriptures to fit them to your theology and ignore the verses used by Catholics. Judge every tree by it’s fruit. Therefore, I believe your accusation is quite easily turned around on you. For it is not Catholics avoiding the plain sense of Scripture, but YOU. And your final sentence is extremely condescending and judgmental. Remember Craig, “Judge not lest thee be judged. For the standard by which YOU judge, you will be judged” (Mt 7). I would hate to think that one day YOU found out you had been wrongly accusing people of negative motives only to find out you were the one who was wrong all along. That couldn’t happen though. I forgot. Craig is infallible, just as every other sola scripturaist is.

 

[djrakowski]

The repeating is in hopes that you might see - but you seem dull of hearing. The logic is clear but you won’t see it. Notice that I said won’t. You are not seekign the truth and are twisting the truth to match what you want to believe. That is the only explanation for you not seeing the clarity of all of the once saved always saved scriptures. I will pray that God might open your eyes…but it may be too late.

Craig, if it is so abundantly clear, then answer the following two questions (which I’ve repeated frequently both here and in email without response from you):

1. If it is so crystal clear that the Bible teaches “once-saved-always-saved,” then why is it that a only a minority of even non-Catholic churches teach it?
2. Why did it take about 16 centuries before this belief came to light after the Reformation?

Perhaps you’re not seeking the truth and twisting scripture to believe what you want to believe. There’s no other explanation for the way you’ve ignored the plain meaning of scriptures like John 15 and Revelation 3.

 

[Redbandito]

Craig, if it is so abundantly clear, then answer the following two questions (which I’ve repeated frequently both here and in email without response from you):

1. If it is so crystal clear that the Bible teaches “once-saved-always-saved,” then why is it that a only a minority of even non-Catholic churches teach it?
2. Why did it take about 16 centuries before this belief came to light after the Reformation?

Perhaps you’re not seeking the truth and twisting scripture to believe what you want to believe. There’s no other explanation for the way you’ve ignored the plain meaning of scriptures like John 15 and Revelation 3.

That’s quite clear DJ. The majority of Christians are not “open to truth” as Craig and his buddies are. That is the “only explanation.” Or perhaps, their is another explanation. Could it be that Craig is just wrong? Nah! Impossible. Super Pope Craig cannot err on matters of faith and morals. He is protected by the H.S. against such error.

 

[djrakowski]

That’s quite clear DJ. The majority of Christians are not “open to truth” as Craig and his buddies are. That is the “only explanation.” Or perhaps, their is another explanation. Could it be that Craig is just wrong? Nah! Impossible. Super Pope Craig cannot err on matters of faith and morals. He is protected by the H.S. against such error.

What I find most interesting is that many non-Catholics (actually, I should narrow that to anti-Catholics) assert that no man is infallible when attacking the institution of the papacy and the ordinary magisterium, but turn around and act as though they possess the ability to interpret scripture infallibly (though denying it), insisting that theirs is the only way to read the Bible. What’s good for the goose is apparently not what’s good for the gander, eh?

(thanks for some fine apologetics work on this thread, Bro. Redbandito! )

 

[Redbandito]

What I find most interesting is that many non-Catholics (actually, I should narrow that to anti-Catholics) assert that no man is infallible when attacking the institution of the papacy and the ordinary magisterium, but turn around and act as though they possess the ability to interpret scripture infallibly (though denying it), insisting that theirs is the only way to read the Bible. What’s good for the goose is apparently not what’s good for the gander, eh?

(thanks for some fine apologetics work on this thread, Bro. Redbandito! )

Amen, DJ! I always find that double standard quite concerning to say the least. The reason it concerns me so, is that no matter how many times you point it out, they can’t (or won’t) see it. Oh well. The Lord works in mysterious ways. May he save us all from ourselves! God bless!

And I applaud all the wonderful work on this thread from others. All of you, Protestants included, that have spent time on this thread have done a nice job. Hopefully anyone reading through this thread will be able to decipher the arguments and make an objective decision to what they believe.

 

[Linkowski]

What is interesting is that I have answered all of your scriptural references with not only other scriptures that contradict your interpretations but also with explanations as to what it means. I have not heard YET what the explanation for 1 John 5:4 other than what I have given as the 100% crystal clear explanation…

1Jo 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.

Perseverance of the saints!!

Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

WE HAVE BECOME partakers with Christ if we persevere. Again, not WILL BECOME. Once you have passed from death to life/are born of God, greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world. This could be said, If we keep the faith to the end, that means we were made partakers with Christ.

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

YOU KNOW WHAT I EXPECT BACK FROM YOU! ONE OF TWO THINGS OR BOTH…

1. Well, how do you know that you have been born again??(assurance of salvation - not once saved always saved which are two different things)
2. Come back with other scriptures whereby you give interpretations that contradict these scriptures that I have brought to your attention.

NO ONE - NOT A ONE - has explained these scriptures to me. Thereby, you have reacted with your EYES CLOSED - WITH YOUR EARS SHUT WHILE HUMMING…

Answer me - Isn’t this Catholic Answers?

THEN, YOU HAVE THIS EXPECTATION THAT I AM GOING TO BECOME CATHOLIC.

Whether you want to believe it or not, I came into this forum for 2 reasons…

1. To bring to you what I know from scripture
2. To see if you could answer me without contradicting scripture.

You have failed thus far. So, before you go throwing a party amongst yourselves, why don’t you all band together and figure out why you cannot explain 1 John 5:4 and its counterparts.

I look forward to something other than what I have seen so far. Do not come back with other scriptures come back with explanations for this and others.

May God Show You.

I think I might list more…

Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
Ro 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Joh 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
1Pe 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Php 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
Ro 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Ro 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Heb 7:25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Ro 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;

And the list can go on…once saved, born again, passed from death to life, becoming a child of God…always saved.

We are justified (declared righteous - legal declaration), sanctified (made righteous through the inner working of the Holy Spirit), to be glorified, made dead to the law, forgiven, HAVE eternal life which by definition is forever.

Remember…1 John 5:4 - what does it mean?

 

[Linkowski]

BUT…BUT…BUT…Craig - What about this scripture and that scripture??? No - give me explanations for why God says that is one has been born again, they will persevere.

 

[Church_Militant]

BUT…BUT…BUT…Craig - What about this scripture and that scripture??? No - give me explanations for why God says that is one has been born again, they will persevere.

Come off it Craig… you wanna tell us that you are the final authority on Biblical interpretation and that is not something that we are willing to buy into, especially since you have cherry picked over the Word of God to make your case while the Catholic position is based on the whole context of the scriptures.

By the way…the Word of God does not say that believers will persevere…it says they must.

I still say you need to look into the things you have been taught because like me I suspect that you were decieved by people spouting Bible verses and waving a Bible in your face and you were too ignorant of both the Word of God and your own Catholic faith not to fall for it.
Want truth? The Catholic Home Study Service
Pax tecum,

 

[djrakowski]

Want truth? The Catholic Home Study Service

An excellent recommendation, CM! I know they helped me when I was sorting out all the confusion and differences between my old church and Catholicism.

Some more worthy explanations of truth:

Bible Christian Society - follow the links to John Martignoni’s FREE audio Bible studies, paying particular attention to the ones on “Once Saved Always Saved” and “Sola Fide”

St. Michael’s Media
- take a look at the audio versions of their excellent television series, The One True Faith. You’ll find them under the Programming menu as Podcasts. They’re all excellent, but you may benefit from listening to episodes 2 (The Church, the same yesterday, today and forever), 6 (Purgatory), 7 (The Reformation), 8 (The Rapture), 9 (Is That In The Bible) and 12 (Grace Through The Sacraments). And I’m still willing to send you a copy of their program on “Once Saved Always Saved.” Just say the word and I’ll make you a copy of it on DVD.

 

[Linkowski]

It says that they must persevere and that they will…please explain that - I already have. But, you do not like that explanation…God ordains the end and the means - yes, He elected some to salvation (when none of us deserved it). And He did this because He chose to. Not according to works but His own sovereign choice. Romans Chapter 9 gives clear explanation.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

As I expected, however, I did not get an explanation for 1 John 5:4 and its helpers.

I forgive you for all of your ridicule and slander and pray that you might see the truth one day. You are just like I was…claim some scriptures and gloss over the rest.

May God Show You.