And yet, the person referred to in Hebrews 10 as BEING SANCTIFIED by the BLOOD OF CHRIST was never really saved to begin with? Very interesting.
That’s not exactly what I am saying. Follow me here. Paul specifically stated at THAT MOMENT “My conscience is clear.” Clearly, Paul believes that, at this moment, he does not have any unrepented sin, since his “conscience is clear.” However, the point I was making was not that Paul knew or didn’t know about his sin. But rather, Paul states he will not “judge” himself as innocent. In other words, Paul will not assume he is in a state of grace, and state with absolute assurance, that he is saved. I don’t think that is deniable BASED on the context.
Actually, the verses you provided here do not contradict what I stated in the slightest. You have incorrectly assumed that I meant Paul is not aware of sin in his life. What I stated, and what the verse actually says, is that Paul is not aware of any unrepented sin in his life. There is a difference.
Those are nice distinctions you made. And justification, sanctification, and glorification are all realities. However, the Scripture does not make the distinctions you did. You are reading your theology back into the text. Nowhere does the Scripture state it is speaking of glorification anytime it speaks of salvation in the future tense. That is another attempt for you to reconcile the Scripture to your theology rather than vice versa. Sorry, but eisogesis ain’t going to cut it here.
And?
And?
Unfortunately, the circular argument is on your part, not our’s. You insist that the Scripture teaches “once saved, always saved.” You even throw out a couple of verses that you think support them. When you get a response to those verses and verses that reject “once saved, always saved” you attempt to brush those verses to the side, or completely read your theology into them as you did with Romans. When confronted about inadequate responses, you fall back on your original verses without even acknowledging that they have already been answered. THAT is a circular discussion, and it is completely generated by you.
Congratulations! I also have had a dramatic conversion experience from Agnostic, to Bible Christian, to Catholic. What’s your point? Christ has transformed my life, and continues to. This paragraph is irrelevant to the thread. Nobody is questioning WHETHER this happens. We are rather stating that this is the process of BOTH sanctification and justification rather than just one.
Wow! The arrogance of this. I thought you were open and looking for answers. I am starting to doubt that with consistent statements resembling this. You keep saying sorry and that you will try to do better, yet here you are again. Was this the type of repentance you brought to God the first time?
And? You’re prooftexting again. That’s a bad habit and poor debating tactic. It may work on someone who hasn’t read that verse before and does not know their faith, but you’ll have to do better than that here.
Great job. I have this gift currently as well. Nobody questions that. Apparently you are having difficulty making out the debate. We all agree that we can possess justification in the present tense and this is a gift from God, just as our faith, repentance, and works are gifts from God. So you’re arguing against a strawman here. What we don’t agree with is that one can never lose this gift through deliberately rejecting it. You have yet to make the case that this is a gift we cannot lose.
Again, the presumption and arrogance is so ridiculous here. Look, I don’t assume you aren’t a Christian merely because you’re not Catholic. Your theology is partially incorrect, but you share in a great deal of the truth as a Protestant. But here you have essentially stated you don’t believe us to be Christian. You have completely misrepresented the Catholic position, ONCE AGAIN, by stating we are “trusting in our own goodness,” despite the fact that this accusation has been rejected on multiple occasions. Hey, where’s the “openness?” Was that just a ploy to engage us in discussion? If so, how is dishonesty pleasing to Christ Jesus? If not, why do you continue on this path despite continuously being called out on it and apologizing?
I think what is apparent is that your “tactics” are the one’s that are questionable. Time to fess up. Why are you really here?
No, you’re not understanding. The explanation you provided is very nice, it just has no Biblical basis. The guy came up and asked Jesus POINT BLANK, “What do I have to do to be saved?” Jesus did NOT respond, “Faith alone.” Rather, Jesus told him to “keep my commandments.” Nowhere in the context of this verse could anyone logically draw out that Jesus is actually trying to show him that he cannot be saved by the law. Rather, living a charitable life and avoiding sin are consistent with a life of faith. They are required to compliment this faith. The two go hand in hand. One without the other is meaningless. This guy obviously already believes Jesus is the Christ, because he approaches Jesus as his teacher and asks JESUS how to get to Heaven. Clearly he is one of Jesus’ followers. However, Jesus does not say that this guy’s faith was enough. Rather, he tells him that he must put his faith into action by keeping his commandments. And while the Mosaic Law does not save, the Law of Christ is separate. Jesus did not come to “abolish the law, but to fulfill it.” Thus, the Christ’s Law is applicable today.
Great post Mike! The internal contradictions in that position are being drawn out by going deeper.
Initially, faith precedes love. But as you said, this is in an ordinal sense. Love is greater than faith, but faith precedes love. Becuase we receive love as one of the three theological virtues in baptism. And to be baptized, we must have a measure of faith. From there I receive the supernatural gifts of faith, hope, and love, which enables me to love as Christ did. Therefore the natural outpouring of faith is love. However, due to our fallen nature, we often resist this outpouring of love for selfish intentions (But I digress). Regardless, while I think love of God will obviously help us to believe more in Him, I do believe that faith in Him also calls us to action. Paul’s formula is “By grace through faith; working through love” (Eph 2:8-10, Gal 5:6, My emphasis added). Thus, again my thought is that faith precedes love, but that we must add love to our faith or “we have nothing” (1 Cor 13:2) for love is indeed greater than faith (1 Cor 13:13). I hope that clarifies things a bit.
Well, at least he has conceded some aspects of the process…it’s a start.
I certainly think to be full of love and faith is righteous.
God is so good and so merciful! I just got back from Confession, and I am full of “love” right now. Praise God! Let’s prepare our hearts to worship the incarnation of His only begotten son, Jesus!