Not By Faith Alone

[Nicene]

With regard to James 2…I am not sure why you always want separate faith and works as if they are separate…

Is this a contradiction…NO - they complement. Faith works - if a racoon is dead - you will not see any work. If it is alive, it moves. Living faith…working faith…

Randy is exactly right. Grace, faith, justification, works, sanctification aren’t seperated, they are organic. If anything the reformers saught to seperate them. But when you go back through history, justification was never an issue. The first encounter (if I remember correctly) was Pelagius, then again during the reformation.

Think of it this way, it changed what was and is naturally organic into something concrete and seperate, like a 12 step program. The catholic view is that it is still organic and always has been. Living faith.

You’ll also find that it is completely a western arguement brought about by those very fights. In the east this never occurred (that I am aware of).

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Linkowski]

Being born of God is something that happens in the past, that is, if you’re talking about regeneration. However, being born of God does not mean everything is completed and now you’re perfect.

That is not what 1 John 5:4 says…

1 John 5:4 KJV 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Once saved always saved…It is like saying this “Whatsoever has been born will die”. The problem is that you assume that I am saying that you could live a life of sin afterwards and consider yourself saved. That is not at all what I believe

In cases where Paul saw indifference, error, or wickedness in the lives of professed believers, Paul said…

2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV 5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Hebrews 3:12 KJV 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Going back to the statement…*It is like saying this “Whatsoever has been born will die”…*here is the argument that you would bring to me in this analogy. “Well, that is not necessarily true…you must first grow up, and then begin winding down after a while and begin a process whereby you wear out … this needs to happen…that needs to happen, and then you will die. But only until then will you know that you will die” (sorry, I am not sure what the actual death process is).

Maybe this will help…Look in Acts 27

They are on a ship and in trouble…Here is what Paul says has been God’s decree…

Acts 27:21-25 KJV 21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss. 22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man’s life among you, but of the ship. 23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, 24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee. 25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

That is like the decree in 1 John 5:4 - You will be saved - I promise you…God is sovereign and has predestined this to occur. So, does that mean everyone just sits back and lets God do everything?? No, look what then happens…

Acts 27:30-31 KJV 30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, 31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility (I think you might like that) working together - and God ordains both…predestines both. We trust him. We are commanded to persevere…But then, God says that we will if we have been born of God…Why…because he ordained it from the foundation of the world…

Ephesians 2:10 KJV 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The Greek word for ordained: proetoimazo - from 4253 and 2090; to fit up in advance (literally or figuratively):–ordain before, prepare afore.

Are we getting somewhere?

Also, with regard to faith working…I have been saying that all along. It is teaching about saving faith in James 2. This is the first time I see someone agreeing with me to be honest.

You cannot separate faith and works…We are justified on the basis of a faith that works.

Romans 14:23 KJV 23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

God Bless and Goodnight

 

[Jim_Baur]

I AM NOT SURE, AND I MEAN IT–

In seems many of the people in this argument pay little attention to LOVE.

LOVE IS IN CHARGE OF FAITH, IN CHARGE OF EVERYTHING.

CHRIST & Love is first, in a cardinal sense.

Christ and Love is last, in a cardinal sense.

LOVE IS FIRST AND LAST, in a cardinal sense.

 

[mikeledes]

That is not what 1 John 5:4 says…

1 John 5:4 KJV 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Are we getting somewhere?

Also, with regard to faith working…I have been saying that all along. It is teaching about saving faith in James 2. This is the first time I see someone agreeing with me to be honest.

You cannot separate faith and works…We are justified on the basis of a faith that works.

Romans 14:23 KJV 23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

God Bless and Goodnight

So if faith has to be followed by works in order to save, then we are not saved by faith alone? That is what I infer from your argument. Correct me if I’m wrong. This is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches.

Now 1 John also says that those born of God do not practice sin, in fact, they cannot sin. So, since I believe you consider yourself as being born of God, do you live a sin free life? Are you incapabale of sin?

How about 1 John 5:14-15

**This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—**B]we know that we have what we asked of him.

I’m sure you receive from God everything you ask for, right? Doesn’t John say we know, as in absolute assurance, that we will receive what we asked for?

1 John 2:27

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

So I guess since true Christians have receive the anointing, they don’t need teachers. So I guess we should get rid of all pastors, bible studies, seminaries, etc.

What is the point of all this? That 1 John makes a lot of general statements about Christian living. Christian life is characterized by faith, perseverance, not practicing sin, overcoming, being led by the Holy Spirit, and having the confidence that we will receive what we ask for in faith. These are the qualities and blessings every Christian should possess or receive. Unfortunately, we know that Christians often fail to live up to these ideals, particularly sin, and don’t always receive what they ask for. So obviously John is not making an absolute statement on the individual Christian, but general and encouraging statements on what a Christian should be. If they were absolute statements that apply to every individual Chrsitian, then all true Christians would lead sinless lives, would receive everything they ask fo in prayer, and would not need teachers because they would have infallible knowledge from the Holy Spirit.

God Bless,
Michael

P.S. Are you a Calvinist?

 

[Jim_Baur]

RIGHTEOUS INCLUDES AT LEAST LOVE AND FAITH.

I Thess. 5: 8 … put on the breastplate of faith and love. In conjunction with Eph 6: 14… the breastplate of righteousness.

Therefore both love and faith are needed to for righteousness.

Whoever does not love remains in death (I John 4: 14).

Righteousness includes faith and love.

Let me know what you think.

I AM NOT SURE, AND I MEAN IT–

In seems many of the people in this argument pay little attention to LOVE.

LOVE IS IN CHARGE OF FAITH, IN CHARGE OF EVERYTHING.

CHRIST & Love is first, in a cardinal sense.

Christ and Love is last, in a cardinal sense.

LOVE IS FIRST AND LAST, in a cardinal sense.

 

[mikeledes]

So, Craig, 1 John is expressing ideals that should and can become reality for Christians, not an absolute guarantee that every single true Christian will always live up to these ideals or will ultimately overcome.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

By the way, Craig, I still don’t understand why you don’t accept the plain meaning of John 15. The words are very clear and can only refer to genuinely justified Christians (i.e. "In Christ). If they were not genuinely “in Christ” they would not be in the Vine in the first place (i.e. branch IN ME).

God Bless,
Michael

 

[djrakowski]

Jim Baur, I think you make some really important points in your posts about love. Certainly, the Catholics posting here aren’t talking about works of obligation, or works designed to gain a reward, but works borne out of love and thanksgiving for the grace God freely gives to us.

Love isn’t merely feelings - it is active, and it is proven in what you do, not just what you say. If I had pledged to love my wife on our wedding day, then was a lazy, shiftless bum, doing nothing to offer her the support she needs, I would be betraying my own words. You would see that I don’t fully love her because I haven’t done anything for her. Likewise, we show God we love him by what we do.

Remember the rich young ruler in Matthew 19:16-22? When he asked Jesus what it would take to get into heaven, Jesus’first instructed him to follow the commandments. Then, he instructed him to sell all his belongings and donate the proceeds to the poor. Interestingly, he didn’t tell him, “Ask me into your heart as your personal Lord and Savior, and you will be assured of salvation, and whatever you do, you will not lose it.”

In other places in the Gospels (especially John 14:15-24), Jesus tells his followers that if they love him, then they will keep his commands. These men aren’t automatons - they must choose to show their love by obeying Jesus’ commands in order for their love to be authentic. Jesus didn’t say, if you love me, you will keep my commands - in other words, it isn’t a guarantee that a profession of love for Jesus will produce good works.

 

[Jim_Baur]

Love gives “energeo” to faith.

---

Love animates faith.

---

Love gives life to faith.

---

Love gives soul to faith.

---

BOTH ARE NEED TO SAVE!!!

St. Mark 12: 28 One of the scribes, when he came forward and heard them disputing and saw how well he had answered them, asked him, “Which is the first (“protos”: first in a succession of things) of all the commandments?” 29 Jesus replied, “The first is this: ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is Lord alone! 30 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32 The scribe said to him, “Well said, teacher. You are right in saying, ‘He is One and there is no other than he.’ 33 And ‘to love him with all your heart, with all your understanding, with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself’ is worth more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 And when Jesus saw that (he) answered with understanding, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to ask him any more questions.

St. Matthew 22: 34 When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together, 35 and one of them (a scholar of the law) tested him by asking, 36 “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” 37 He said to him, "You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39 The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments."

I Corinthians 13: 13 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

I Corinthians 13: 7 It (LOVE) bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

I Corinthians 13: 1 If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Ephesians 6: 14 So stand fast with your loins girded in truth, clothed with righteousness as a breastplate, 15 and your feet shod in readiness for the gospel of peace.

I Thessalonians 5: 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love and the helmet that is hope for salvation.

Galatians 5: 6 For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith “energeo” through love.

 

[jim1130]

No one taught “faith alone” for 15 centuries.

Here, Jesus is presented an opportunity to slam-dunk the “faith is all you need” mantra, and what does Jesus say?

Matthew 19:16-21 “And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? Who said to him: Why askest thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith to him: All these have I kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me? Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.”

Luke 18:18-22 “And a certain ruler asked him, saying: Good master, what shall I do to possess everlasting life? And Jesus said to him: Why dost thou call me good? None is good but God alone. Thou knowest the commandments: Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery: Thou shalt not steal: Thou shalt not bear false witness: Honour thy father and mother. Who said: All these things have I kept from my youth. Which when Jesus had heard, he said to him: Yet one thing is wanting to thee. Sell all whatever thou hast and give to the poor: and thou shalt have treasure in heaven. And come, follow me.”

Why do Protestants/Non-Catholics continue to belabor the “faith alone” attitude?

 

[Linkowski]

Before I leave I would like to answer a couple of scriptures that I was given to look at:

Make sure you read this in its context…

1Corinthians 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

If you are saying that Paul is saying that he is not aware of sin in his life, I have to say that this is not what he is saying in light of the following:

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

And Romans 7:

Ro 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

So, this is not saying what you are saying.

The other one is Romans 13:11:

Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Trying to indicate that we are not saved yet…scripture speaks of the fact that we have been saved, are being saved and will be saved…

Have been - saved from the penalty of sin (justification)
**Are being **- saved from the hold of sin on our lives as we are being purified and purged from dead works (sanctification)
**Will be **saved - which is the case here in Romans 13:11 - as we are rid of this wicked sinful flesh (glorification)…This is a verse looking forward to the coming of Christ whereby we will be glorified.

You bring up John 15…fruitless “Chrisitan” (professor)…faith without works is dead…were not born of God…based on the parable of the sower…

Lu 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

I have to be honest…this whole circular discussion that is going on reminds me of John Chapter 9…

Joh 9:8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged?
9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
10 Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened?..
…Joh 9:15 Then again the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. He said unto them, He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and do see.
16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them…
…Joh 9:18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight.

I guess you do not understand - I will say it again…I was spiritually blind and now I see, spiritually deaf but now hear, spiritually lame but now walk, spiritually dead but now alive…Christ healed me when I repented from sin (including the sin of pride - as I was trusting in my OWN GOODNESS for my salvation) and turned to Christ as my Lord and Savior (like the fourth person in the parable of the sower). Maybe you should ask my parents…they’ll tell you…what my life was and what it now is.

There are no good answers for my last post - once saved always saved…written over and over again in scripture.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I have this gift in the present tense and it is a gift from God just as my faith was a gift from Him and the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (Romans 11:29). Eternal life is just as it says it is - eternal and mine forever. I am a witness to these things.

I guess I would like to plead with you to repent and trust Christ and him alone for your salvation and your life will be changed. Stop trusting in your own goodness - there will be no boasting in heaven because all glory goes to Him. May God show you. I will continue to pray for you all.

Ahhhh…And to the one who was citing the scripture:
1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I will not answer you on this - you know what it is saying. These are the tactics that I cited earlier.

May God Help You All.

 

[Linkowski]

And one more thing about the posting about love…

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Yes - those that are born of God will love - it was ordained by God as well - just as perseverance is.

 

[Linkowski]

QUOTE FROM JIM1130:

*No one taught “faith alone” for 15 centuries.

Here, Jesus is presented an opportunity to slam-dunk the “faith is all you need” mantra, and what does Jesus say?

Matthew 19:16-21 “And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? Who said to him: Why askest thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith to him: All these have I kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me? Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.”*

You are not understanding the point here…

What does every sinner need to see before they can be born again…they must realize that they are dead in sin. How do you show them this??? The law!! Which is what Jesus did.

Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

What do you say to someone who says they are perfect as this one did??? Tell them as John the Baptist said:

Mt 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

So Jesus said - If you are perfect…show me - for all the law hangs on loving your neighbor as yourself and loving God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind…BUT…HE DEMONSTRATED THAT HE WAS A SINNER AND NOT WILLING TO REPENT - TO TURN FROM HIS GOD OF RICHES. If he will not repent, he cannot be saved. That was the point. But, God can change the heart of anyone - with God all things are possible.

I hope you understand this.

 

[jim1130]

jim1130;1752394:

No one taught “faith alone” for 15 centuries.

Here, Jesus is presented an opportunity to slam-dunk the “faith is all you need” mantra, and what does Jesus say?

Matthew 19:16-21 “And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? Who said to him: Why askest thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith to him: All these have I kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me? Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.”

You are not understanding the point here…

What does every sinner need to see before they can be born again…they must realize that they are dead in sin. How do you show them this??? The law!! Which is what Jesus did.

Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin

.

What do you say to someone who says they are perfect as this one did??? Tell them as John the Baptist said:

Mt 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

So Jesus said - If you are perfect…show me - for all the law hangs on loving your neighbor as yourself and loving God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind…BUT…HE DEMONSTRATED THAT HE WAS A SINNER AND NOT WILLING TO REPENT - TO TURN FROM HIS GOD OF RICHES. If he will not repent, he cannot be saved. That was the point. But, God can change the heart of anyone - with God all things are possible.

I hope you understand this.Uh, not really.

If faith is a seed and you are planted in the ground, but do not take root and grow, sprouting branches, leaves, etc. what good of a seed are you?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

1Corinthians 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

If you are saying that Paul is saying that he is not aware of sin in his life, I have to say that this is not what he is saying in light of the following:

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Ro 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

So, this is not saying what you are saying.

Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Trying to indicate that we are not saved yet…scripture speaks of the fact that we have been saved, are being saved and will be saved…

You bring up John 15…fruitless “Chrisitan” (professor)…faith without works is dead…were not born of God…based on the parable of the sower…

Lu 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

I have to be honest…this whole circular discussion that is going on reminds me of John Chapter 9…

Joh 9:8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged?
9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
10 Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened?..
…Joh 9:15 Then again the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. He said unto them, He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and do see.
16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them…
…Joh 9:18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight.

I guess you do not understand - I will say it again…I was spiritually blind and now I see, spiritually deaf but now hear, spiritually lame but now walk, spiritually dead but now alive…Christ healed me when I repented from sin (including the sin of pride - as I was trusting in my OWN GOODNESS for my salvation) and turned to Christ as my Lord and Savior (like the fourth person in the parable of the sower). Maybe you should ask my parents…they’ll tell you…what my life was and what it now is.

There are no good answers for my last post - once saved always saved…written over and over again in scripture.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I have this gift in the present tense and it is a gift from God just as my faith was a gift from Him and the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (Romans 11:29). Eternal life is just as it says it is - eternal and mine forever. I am a witness to these things.

I guess I would like to plead with you to repent and trust Christ and him alone for your salvation and your life will be changed. Stop trusting in your own goodness - there will be no boasting in heaven because all glory goes to Him. May God show you. I will continue to pray for you all.

Ahhhh…And to the one who was citing the scripture:
1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I will not answer you on this - you know what it is saying. These are the tactics that I cited earlier.

May God Help You All.

May God Help you.

Please reread your scripture pasages. Not one says “once saved, always saved”.

Merry Christ’s Mass!!
Happy Holy Days!!

 

[mikeledes]

You bring up John 15…fruitless “Chrisitan” (professor)…faith without works is dead…were not born of God…based on the parable of the sower…

Only a person born of God can be united to Christ, Craig. If you were never really born of God, then you cannot be a branch in the Vine. Though I challenge your interpretation of the parable of the sower, John 15 and the parable of the sower refer to two different things. If a person is a superficial believer (professor) then he cannot be “In Christ”. In John 15, the branches are described as being IN CHRIST (“branch IN ME”). Secondly, how can a branch cease to ABIDE in a vine unless it is united to the vine in the first place. You cannot abide (i.e. remain) in something that you were never a part of. You cannot cease abiding in Christ unless you were incorporated into Christ first. You cannot be incorporated into Christ unless you were born of God. That is just plain common sense and correct grammar and sematics. This is the PLAIN reading of Scripture.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[djrakowski]

Craig,

If the teaching of eternal security, or “once-saved-always-saved” is so clearly taught in scripture, then why wasn’t it taught by anyone until after the Protestant Reformation?

Furthermore, it is hard to believe that you’re truly seeking the truth when you flatly dismiss any explanation that contradicts yours as incorrect. Do you believe you and those who attend your church to be infallible?

And lastly, what do you say about all the non-Catholic churches whose teachings on soteriology aren’t the same as yours? You’re right, and they’re wrong? You’re Christians, and they’re not? After all, you’re all using the same Bible to come to your conclusions, and you’re all claiming that you’ve got the correct interpretations, but not all can be correct.

You then depart from using scripture (strange for a Bible-only Christian) to proving the case from your own life. Fine - I can provide you with any number of stories from those who converted to Catholicism who would say exactly the same things as you. In fact, before I converted, and when I believed in eternal security and the rapture, I was one of the most prideful Christians you’d ever want to meet. I used to lok down my nose at people who didn’t believe as me, and I often stated pridefully that I knew whether so-and-so was going to heaven or hell. That’s pretty scary, since I now realize that I was claiming a share in the mind of God, since it is he alone that knows who is and isn’t going to heaven or hell. Furthermore, Catholic teaching on damnation is far more humble, considering that the Church never declares that someone is in hell. Knowing that I have to persevere in my faith as a Catholic, I’ve come to realize that I’m not any better than anyone else, and that everyone periodically struggles with their faith in the ways I do now.

Dan

 

[mikeledes]

I

have this gift in the present tense and it is a gift from God just as my faith was a gift from Him and the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (Romans 11:29). Eternal life is just as it says it is - eternal and mine forever. I am a witness to these things.

I guess I would like to plead with you to repent and trust Christ and him alone for your salvation and your life will be changed. Stop trusting in your own goodness - there will be no boasting in heaven because all glory goes to Him. May God show you. I will continue to pray for you all.

Ahhhh…And to the one who was citing the scripture:
1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I will not answer you on this - you know what it is saying. These are the tactics that I cited earlier.

This is very sad! Please be honest with us, because you know lying is not of God but of the Devil. Did you really come to seek the truth or to convince us of your version of truth? This seriously makes me question if your intention to seek truth is sincere.

I know what 1 John 3:9 is saying. The problem is that you do not know what it is saying. You claim that this means that Christians will not deliberately sin. I guess your sins are never intentional, right? I guess if a born of God commits the sin of adultery, he just accidentally fell into that situation.

I have never said that a Christian does not have to battle with sin in their lives or that they will never sin. You, on the other hand, contradict yourself. One moment you’re saying that Christians don’t deliberately sin and the next moment you’re pointing to passages that talk about Christians sinning? Which one is it?

You claim I am blind and need to repent. Make sure Craig, that you are not the one that is blind and only see what you want to see. I can talk to you about how God has impacted my life and the lives of many other Catholics, so your personal experience is not enough to convince me of the veracity of your beliefs.

I will keep you in my prayers and I know you’ll keep me in yours.

God bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

And one more thing about the posting about love…

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Yes - those that are born of God will love - it was ordained by God as well - just as perseverance is.

So you are a Calvinist, then? If God ordains us to love and pesevere, then why do we resist the will of God by sinning? Or is sinning after being Born of God ordained by God as well?

John 15, Exodus 32:32-33, Hebrews 10, Matthew 19… It does not matter how many passages we present to you. You are already convinced of “Once saved always saved” and see that in passages that don’t really say that. Once you’ve reached that state, convincing you otherwise is as vain as convincing the Pharisees that Jesus is the Messiah. This reminds me of my debates with Jehovah’s Witnesses. They latch on to a whole host of passages that talk about Jesus’s humanity and refuse see otherwise.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

The Bible tells us:

Ephesians 4:32

Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

Colossians 3:13

"…just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.

We are called to forgive other just as God has forgiven us. Now lets read:

Matthew 18:32-35

Then summoning him, the lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way I had mercy on you? And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the tortureres until he should repay all that was owed him. My heavenly father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from the heart.

Now compare with the verses given above. In this parable, the servant had a debt he was unable to pay and out of pure mercy, his lord forgave his debt. This is a symbol of the freely given mercy of God to the justified whose works can never pay their eternal debt and earn the mercy of God. But after he was forgiven, he refused to forgive the debt of his fellow slave and we know what his lord does to him. Jesus said that the Heavenly father will do the same to “you.” Who is he talking to? To all those who have freely received the mercy of God and, subsequent to that, do not forgive those that sin against them. Just as the lord withdrew the mercy he showed to the unforgiving servant, God will withdraw His mercy from the justified if they do not forgive others and will hand them to the “torturers” (i.e. eternal damnation). This is a clear example of God establishing a condtion (i.e. a work of mercy) that has to be met subsequent to receiving the free gift of justification, Otherwise, He will withdraw the gift.

God Bless,
Michael

This plainly contradicts what you are saying, Craig. But I guess it doesn’t matter at this point.

God Bless,
Michael