Not By Faith Alone

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Linkowski said:
I have 5 kids, a wife that is 7 months pregnant, a job, a church and that takes most of my time. This is just too time consuming. I have communication with someone through e-mail when I went through my last wave of postings and I will continue with him.

There is too much nonsense being thrown around and I do not have time to clean it up. This is not to mention that there are good points as well and I have not the time for this either. Pray for me, please. I will pray for you.

Craig Linkowski

(If only we could sit face to face - I think things would be much more constructive) 🙂
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Fair enough. I can certainly understand your position then. I have been in similar circumstances, although I can’t say I have FIVE KIDS. Wow!:blessyou: My wife and I intend on having five or six, but we only have two right now. Anyway, I have enjoyed our discussion, and would love to talk to you more. You just let me know a convenient time, and I will try to accomodate you. I will definitely keep you in my prayers. I thank you for your’s. God Bless!

Josh
 
HELLO?

Sorry, I had to get your attention.

I realize that all of you folks are having a lot of fun arguing with each other, but I already dismantled OSAS a dozen posts back in two posts: one on Abraham and one on Justification as a process.

Did anyone bother to read what I wrote?
 
Randy_Carson said:
Actually, the Bible does present justification as a process just as it does salvation as a whole. Please consider:

Justification as an ongoing process

In Genesis, we read: “Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.” (Genesis 15:6)

Commenting on this passage, the Apostle Paul wrote:

“What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.’ “ (Romans 4:1-3)

If justification is a one-time event as many Protestants claim it to be, then Abraham could not receive justification either before or after this event in Genesis 15:6. However, the Bible states he did both.

First, consider this passage:

“By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.” (Hebrews 11:8)

The subject of Hebrews 11 is saving faith as can be seen from the opening verses: “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.” (Hebrews 11:1-2) One is not commended for one’s faith unless it is saving faith. Therefore, the faith that Abraham is commended for in Hebrews 11:8 must be saving faith. But when did Abraham have this saving faith? It was “when called to go to a place he would later receive” and he “obeyed and went”.

The problem for the once-for-all view of justification is that the call of Abraham to leave Haran is recorded in Genesis 12:1-4, three chapters before he is justified in Genesis 15:6. From this, we see that Abraham was justified before, years before, he was justified in Genesis 16:6.

But that’s not all. James tells us:

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.” (James 2:21-23 KJV)

The account of the testing of Abraham is found in Genesis 22 which is well after Genesis 15:6.

We see, therefore, that Abraham was justified on at least three different occasions: Genesis 12, when he left Haran in faith; in Genesis 15, when he believed God’s promise concerning his descendants; and in Genesis 22, when he offered his son, Isaac, on the altar. As a result, justification must be seen, not as a once-for-all event, but as a process that continues throughout the believer’s life.

*Adapted from *The Salvation Controversy by James Akin.
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Correct Randy. I previously debated a minister from Kansas on a thread here on this very topic. Needless to say, he never responded.
 
Randy_Carson said:
Ironically then, while one group of Protestants is touting “once saved always saved” another group is stating that you can never really be sure who has REAL faith until the end because it might turn out that one is “overcome” by the world at the last minute. I’m just curios, which of these groups is “rightly dividing the word of God” and which is wrongly dividing it? They can’t both be right yet both claim scripture as their sole rule of faith. So much for the doctrine of sola scriptura. But I digress. 👍

Isn’t it ironic that when Catholics speak of mortal sin, many OSAS Protestants will begin screaming about how “wrong” Catholics are to hold that someone could live a good life according to the Word of God and still lose out on salvation because they are not in a state of grace due to mortal sin at the time of their death.

Yet, here is another Protestant declaring that if one is “overcome” by the world and does not perservere (in what? good works?) to the end, that is evidence that one does not have saving faith. :eek:

Our friend, Linkowski, is in a difficult situation for even he cannot know for sure right now if he REALLY has that saving faith or not, and he won’t know this side of heaven. He realizes that he, too, could be overcome at some point in the future…perhaps his time of testing has not yet come. :confused:

This is what drives the “good works” of Protestantsim - the evangelizing, the tithing, the missionary work, etc. They are seeking to do these things as evidence that they have saving faith that perserveres to the end.

This is the treadmill they are on - and then they condemn Catholics because they mistakenly believe we think we can earn our way into heaven! They attribute this false idea to Catholics because many of them are actually doing that very thing themselves!

+++

So, Linkowski, have you been saved, brother? And how can you know for sure?
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Good points Randy. These are the points I was trying to make as well. Sorry not to respond earlier. Craig had posted a lot, and I wanted to answer him first.
 
Linkowski said:
Most people that claim to be Christians are not because they think knowing about Christ and doing good things will get them to heaven.
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Many people think by just simply believing in Christ they are Christian but this is only part we must be Christ like.

So I would have to agree most Christians are not really Christian because there faith is dead.
 
Sorry - I have to chime in here one more time…

Once saved always saved is one thing…
Knowing whether or not you ARE saved is another thing.

Someone said they were the same thing and that is not the case.
 
mikeledes said:
If you actually tackle the verses I have presented and answer my questions, then I will have a lot of respect for you, not that I don’t respect you now. I am open to alternative interpretations. Of course, I will test it against other Scipture passages, common sense, and basic rules of grammar and semantics. Thank you for taking the time to respond 🙂 .

God Bless,
Michael
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Here is the first portion of my response…
You said:
Let me clarify domething and develop my point a little further. I have never claimed that I am sinless. What I am saying is that when I do sin, it is no one’s fault but my own and I am accountable for my actions. If we cannot overcome sin in Christ, bibleapologist, then God has lied to us in the verse from 1 Corinthians. Then there is temptation that can overtake us.
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There are two points you are missing, and I will develop these arguments further… but let me start out by saying this:
  1. We are made dead to the law, but we are not automatically made perfect at the instant of salvation.
  2. To cease from sinning requires a complete and total submission to the grace of God which was given to us at the time of salvation.
Romans 7:5-6

"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter. "

Before we are saved, we are bound by the law of sin, and of our own power have no ability to cease from sin. When we are saved, we are made spiritually alive and are then able to serve God in the Spirit… and cease from sin

Romans 7:7-13 Paul explains how the commandment brought him to understand that his sin was sinful. This is a very important part of understanding the next portion of scripture (v. 14-25) Paul in verses 7-13 explains the contrast between the law of sin, and the commandment. Verse 9 “but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.”; here Paul is explaining that the commandment to “not sin” is the very thing that convicts us of our sin, and causes us to die.

The misconception here is that in verses 7 throught 13 Paul is referring to himself as to before he was saved… but that is not the case as verse 13 clearly states… “that sin by the commandment might become exceedingly sinful”. Essentially Paul was saying that the commandment is the thing that causes us to be free from sin… but Paul never stipulated that this is a ‘once for all time event’. In fact, Paul says the opposite, that it is a continual process of the commandment being revealed to facilitate victory over sin.

Romans 7:14-25 describes the condition of man under the Law. But, in no way can these verses be interpreted that Paul was speaking of himself as if he were not saved.

The key statement that keeps repeating itself in this passage is “I do”… this is to say that Paul is in the present describing himself as he is.

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

In order for Paul to be referring to himself as a memory, he would have to speak of himself either as “I did”, or he would have to speak of himself in the third person… which he did not.

cont.

BA
 
cont.

Furthermore, the very fact that Paul contrasted his sinful desires and actions with a contrary desire to do good proves that there were two natures involved; his flesh, and his regenerated spirit. This point is proven in v.18 and 19

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

In Paul’s flesh dwells ‘no good thing’… so what was it about Paul that caused him to do good? It wasn’t flesh… it had to be spirit. Unless you are prepared to confess that men are inherently good, you will have to concede to the fact that Paul was a regenerated man. If you choose to confess that man in inherently good, you will have to deny Romans 7:18.

Paul further clarifies that it is not his flesh that causes him to attempt good, but the new life in him as a saved person in verse 22.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

The law of God after the inward man is the Word of God written on the table of his heart…. This is the Holy Spirit, or the imputation of righteousness. Paul, before he was converted was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit… and did not have the law of God written upon the tables of his heart. He was a Pharisee who strove to live by the letter of the law. But, now as he writes in Romans 7, he is one who exists as a righteous man in Christ Jesus.

So, Paul gives us the conclusion of the matter….

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul again contrasts his two natures, and describes the sinful nature that controls his flesh. But, interestingly, Paul states with confidence that he would be redeemed by Christ, and delivered from his body of death…. EVEN THOUGH HE IS A SINNER! How could Paul being an Apostle make such a bold statement if he did not have absolute assurance that he would be given a glorified body at the resurrection? He did have that assurance, just as we have today if we have been regenerated (born again) of the Spirit.

You don’t have to be sinless to be saved…. Just forgiven.

BA
 
Romans 7:14-25 describes the condition of man under the Law. But, in no way can these verses be interpreted that Paul was speaking of himself as if he were not saved.
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The key statement that keeps repeating itself in this passage is “I do”… this is to say that Paul is in the present describing himself as he is.
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Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
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In order for Paul to be referring to himself as a memory, he would have to speak of himself either as “I did”, or he would have to speak of himself in the third person… which he did not.
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Thank you, Bibleapologist, for responding. Even after we are regenerated, we can still sin. We do not become instantaneosly perfect. So I think we agree on that point. What I challenged was your interpretation of Romans 7. Paul speaks in the present tense because he is speaking as one who has been convicted of their utter helplessness before the power of sin, the inability of the Law to overcome that power, and their need for Jesus Christ (i.e. “Thanks be to the Lord Jesus Christ”). The desire vs action verses are designed to emphasize the fact that someone enslaved to sin cannot do the things pleasing to God and find their wills captive to sin, hence he says the things he does not want to do (sin) he does. Through Jesus Christ, we are liberated from the power of sin and thus can fulfill God’s call to holiness, something we could not do while being under sin and not under grace. However, this does not mean that we are freed from our sinful inclinations. Living a life in which sin is less of a presence is a process that can only occur with the assistance of the Holy Spirit.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Linkowski said:
What does sanctified mean in this case??? This would contradict Hebrews 10:14 just preceding that…

Hebrews 10:14 NAS95 14 For by one offering He has **perfected for all time **those who are sanctified.

Look at 1 Corinthians 7…

1 Corinthians 7:12-14 NAS95 12 But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

What do you think sanctified means here?

Be honest…you cannot get around the bold statements of 1 John…

1 John 3:9 NAS95 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In Hebrews 10, the person is sinning wilfully - if they were born of God, they would not…And they would overcome…

1 John 5:4 NAS95 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.

There is absolutely no way around these statements.
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You ask me what sanctified means but never provide an answer. When Paul talks about a husband being sanctified through his wife or vice versa, he is talking about evangelization and conversion through the efforts of the believing spouse. Through the believing spouse, the unbelieving spouse is constantly exposed to Christian truth. What does Paul say later? If the unbelieving spouse separates, let them separate, for how does the believing spouse know that they will save their husband or wife.

How can an unbeliever be sanctified by the blood of Christ? “Perfected” does not mean saved because that phrase is even used for Jesus Christ, and we all know that Jesus was absolutely sinless and had no need of salvation.

You have not addressed John 15. Or how about 2 Corinthians 6:1 where Paul discusses the possibility of receiving the grace of God in vain. Or the verse I quote from Matthew?

The passages from John says that a person born of God cannot sin. So you never sin? When you do sin, is it “accidental” or “deliberate”? It can’t be both.

I also want to add that in Hebrews 10, Paul includes himself when he uses the word “we” when talking about sinning deliberately. So he is talking about genuine Christians, born of God.

Also, explain the unfruitful Chrsitians of 2 Peter 1, if true Christians automatically bear fruit?

God Bless,
Michael
 
bibleapologist said:
You don’t have to be sinless to be saved…. Just forgiven.

BA
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Interesting point…

Is repentance required for forgivness? I believe the answer is has to be, yes.

Back to the subject of this thread. “not by faith alone”. Your summary here seems to prove the point of this discussion. Faith alone is not the only thing that is required of us for salvation.

The “Faith Alone” is now disproven?
Now if love of God and love of neighbor are also required to be saved, then we are getting closer to Truth.
 
I just want to add, Craig, that if you are not genuinely regenerated you can never be united to Christ. So a “branch” cannot be a part of the Vine and “taken away” from it unless it was first genuinely incoporated into Christ. You cannot be taken away from something you were never a part of. Otherwise, it would never have been considered a branch to begin with. Nor can a person cease to “abide” (i.e. remain) in Christ unless he or she was in Christ in the first place.

Back to “faith alone.”

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Once again, I ask you:
  1. Is the faith referred to in this verse genuine faith?
  2. Is this verse talking about justification? If not, then why does James use the word “justified”?
I have not gotten a response to these questions.

God Bless,
Michael
 
A lot of word games are going in on this thread - salvation, sanctified, justified are used in many different ways in scripture. Instead of asking people to waste their time explaining it to you (and studying for hours to do so) only so you can delay believing the truth about soteriology and how it is brought forth in scripture, study it for your self and seek the truth about what the scriptures are saying. I had to leave a church because of “easy-believism” - that the moment you “SAY”…“the sinners prayer”, you are saved forever no matter what your life is like afterwards. Scripture is very clear that if you are in Christ, then you are a new creature. Christ is the way to holiness.

The Pastor of that Church said to me and I quote…“We believe this - so it cannot mean that”. That was the most disheartening statement that I have ever heard. I was a deacon in that Church and I left. Truly desire to understand justification to its fullest extent…truly desire to know what sanctification means to the fullest extent…when it says salvation what is it talking about - is it the riddance of this body of death…is it speaking of the passing from death to life or being born again…is it speaking only of temporal salvation??? Saved - what does it mean when it says saved?? Does it mean in every single instant what people always say that it means (being born again)?? No it does not and I believe that you know that.

There is also no place for purposefully misunderstanding people which I have found in posting here. Bias is very dangerous - I have set out for the truth.

May God lead us and guide us in the way of eternal life.
 
Linkowski said:
A lot of word games are going in on this thread - salvation, sanctified, justified are used in many different ways in scripture. Instead of asking people to waste their time explaining it to you (and studying for hours to do so) only so you can delay believing the truth about soteriology and how it is brought forth in scripture, study it for your self and seek the truth about what the scriptures are saying. I had to leave a church because of “easy-believism” - that the moment you “SAY”…“the sinners prayer”, you are saved forever no matter what your life is like afterwards. Scripture is very clear that if you are in Christ, then you are a new creature. Christ is the way to holiness.

The Pastor of that Church said to me and I quote…“We believe this - so it cannot mean that”. That was the most disheartening statement that I have ever heard. I was a deacon in that Church and I left. Truly desire to understand justification to its fullest extent…truly desire to know what sanctification means to the fullest extent…when it says salvation what is it talking about - is it the riddance of this body of death…is it speaking of the passing from death to life or being born again…is it speaking only of temporal salvation??? Saved - what does it mean when it says saved?? Does it mean in every single instant what people always say that it means (being born again)?? No it does not and I believe that you know that.

There is also no place for purposefully misunderstanding people which I have found in posting here. Bias is very dangerous - I have set out for the truth.

May God lead us and guide us in the way of eternal life.
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Ouch! you must not be in a good mood today. It’s interesting how you can accuse people of playing word games but refuse to accept that “sanctified” means “sanctified” and that “man is justified by works and not by faith alone” means exactly what it says. Nor do you want to accept the plain meaning of John 15. A branch is a branch because it is part of the Vine. If it weren’t then it wouldn’t be a branch and it wouldn’t be in Christ. That is simple grammar and semantics, not word games. “We” means “we” (Hebrews 10), and that is not a word game.

You say you are seeking the truth, but are more intent on defending Protestant doctrine. Every time I ask my questions on James 2, most Protestants dance around it or evade it. They do not directly respond. That says a lot to me. The Protestant interpretation of James 2. Now that’s a real word game.

God Bless,
Michael
 
mikeledes said:
Ouch! you must not be in a good mood today. It’s interesting how you can accuse people of playing word games but refuse to accept that “sanctified” means “sanctified” and that “man is justified by works and not by faith alone” means exactly what it says. Nor do you want to accept the plain meaning of John 15. A branch is a branch because it is part of the Vine. If it weren’t then it wouldn’t be a branch and it wouldn’t be in Christ. That is simple grammar and semantics, not word games. “We” means “we” (Hebrews 10), and that is not a word game.

You say you are seeking the truth, but are more intent on defending Protestant doctrine. Every time I ask my questions on James 2, most Protestants dance around it or evade it. They do not directly respond. That says a lot to me. The Protestant interpretation of James 2. Now that’s a real word game.

God Bless,
Michael
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Well, after all, James is an Epistle to straw :rolleyes:
 
All I am asking for is a response to my questions on James 2, not a laundry list of other verses. Is the faith in James 2:24 genuine faith? Why does James use the word justified if he is not talking about justification? Or will we engage in “word games” and say that when he says justified he is not really talking about justification.

God Bless,
Michael
 
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