H
HailMary
Guest
and lets not forget…
Ezekiel 18:24
Ezekiel 18:24
Ezekiel 18:30
- Status
R
Redbandito
Guest
Actually, you just made my point for me. Since “perseverance is evidence of rebirth,” and we can only know that we have “persevered” in the end, you cannot rightly say that you can have an assurance of salvation.
Furthermore, while I appreciate your attempt to explain that passage as you did, your explanation makes no sense. Again, we cannot know whether we “persevered till the end” until the END, thus our perseverance IS a condition of us “coming to share in Christ.” So, I’m sorry but I simply disagree with your exegesis of that passage.
For starters, I try to avoid making judgments on whether a person is “saved” or not. That is God’s judgment ALONE. Since I don’t even know my own heart, how can I presume to know anyone else’s? This is why Paul states, “I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore JUDGE NOTHING before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. **HE **will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God” (1 Cor 4:3-5).Here are a couple of “they were never saved to begin with verses”:
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
Secondly, the verse you provided is another conditional statement. You are “saved” “IF ye keep in memory what I preached unto you.” IF you don’t, “ye have believed in vain.” That verse STRONGLY supports the Catholic position.
Actually, that is NOT what it says. Hebrews 6 EXPLICTLY states the exact opposite of your claim, “for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit.” You state that they had not received the Holy Spirit, the author of Hebrews disagrees. To receive the Holy Spirit and to be illuminated by the Holy Spirit is a distinction without a difference. The gift of the Holy Spirit is not a physical gift. The Holy Spirit is pure spirit, and thus is not a corporeal being. In other words, the Holy Spirit does not dwell in us physically. Rather, the Holy Spirit is where the Holy Spirit works. Thus, the fact that you admit that this person is being “illumined” by the Spirit can only mean he has received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Again, I strongly disagree with your exegesis of this passage.
Amen! But this does not advance your point in any way. We agree that faith must be accompanied by good fruit. Or in other words, dare I say it, faith must be accompanied by good works (including a hatred for and turning from sin, and self-sacrificial love for God’s people- which is an action). However, this again begs the question. If people can “believe in vain,” and they must “bear fruit,” then we cannot really say with absolute certainty that someone is saved until the have “endured til the end.” This is the only logically consistent conclusion that can be drawn from your very own argument and the verses you provided.
R
Redbandito
Guest
Continued…
God Bless!
Josh
And? I really don’t see what you’re trying to prove here. The fact that Paul states that a few of these people are not the type to “draw back” does not negate the very real fact that Paul believes some WILL drawback. In other words, it remains absolutely essential, in order to “have pleasure in Him,” that we not “drawback.” This verse only strengthens my position. Anyway, I appreciate the work you put into this email. I like that you have provided, not just verses, but your analysis of each of them. It makes for a real discussion.
God Bless!
Josh
R
Redbandito
Guest
Who called you a heretic?
For the record, Catholics COMPLETELY trust in Christ for their perseverance. Don’t misunderstand Catholic theology. Perseverance is a grace that God gives, no doubt. However, that does not mean I do not in some way cooperate with this grace. Just because someone wants to give me a free gift, does not mean I must accept it. That is, unless you believe that after our justification God takes away our free will. Do you believe this? If not, then man always is free to reject God’s gift of perseverance, and therefore justification, if he so desires.
Jesus’ teachings throughout the Gospels (predominantly through parables) show that we must take God’s free gift and make something out of it. The parable of the talents is such an example. Granted, it is God that gave us the ability to do so in the first place, and thus the glory is His when do accomplish anything. However, that does not negate our responsibility to nurture this gift. If we neglect the gift and ultimately reject it, then we reject God. Plain and simple.
Thus, to make a statement as if Catholics trust in themselves for perseverance is simply not true. God’s grace transforms us. We must cooperate with this gift.
R
Redbandito
Guest
Let’s take one issue at a time. I know it gets exciting to discuss all of these different issues. However, I don’t think it will be as productive as if we follow one line of thought.
Nevertheless, I think it is important to point out that a Catholic has no problem dealing with a verse that discusses justification in the past tense. We believe in an “initial justification” as well, which can only be in the past tense for someone who believes. It should also be pointed out though, that the Scripture has multiple references to salvation in the present and future tenses. So, to say that you found some verses that speak of justification in the past tense really does not prove anything.
Regardless, I would like to re-state my request that we continue to deal with the previous verses before you throw out another handful to address.
Thanks and God Bless
Josh
R
Redbandito
Guest
Craig, does the fact that Jimmy Swaggert was a Protestant undermine all of Protestantism? Does the fact that some Dispensationalist Protestants believe in two separate, but equally valid, Gospels exist undermine Protestantism? Of course not! There are a lot of Catholics that believe a lot of things incorrectly. If you want to know what Catholicism teaches though, you turn to the official source. Many people of different faiths wrongly espouse doctrines that are not representative of what that faith actually teaches. I don’t know your grandmother, and do not judge her, but she is simply incorrect in her “Catholic” explanation of salvation.
Anyway, I renew my request to stick with the original course we were taking on this thread.
L
Linkowski
Guest
I understand and apologize for all of my typing…
In that case, I still want to show you 1 John 5:4. Nobody can give that great of an explanation for its meaning. Putting into context does not change what it says. It certainly is corroborated in scipture many times but this, to me, is the most clear scripture to explain - once saved always saved.
1Jo 5:4 **For whatsoever is born of God **overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
and to him that overcometh…
Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Thanks,
Craig Linkowski
In that case, I still want to show you 1 John 5:4. Nobody can give that great of an explanation for its meaning. Putting into context does not change what it says. It certainly is corroborated in scipture many times but this, to me, is the most clear scripture to explain - once saved always saved.
1Jo 5:4 **For whatsoever is born of God **overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
and to him that overcometh…
Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Thanks,
Craig Linkowski
R
Redbandito
Guest
So, you’re saying that you believe the writer of Hebrews is proposing, with this verse, that sanctification is a one-time event too? That is the logical end to the point you’re making. If sanctification is a past event, that perfects us for all time, then you cannot increase in sanctity. If you’re perfect, you can’t become more holy OR righteous. Thus, you have even turned the Protestant notion of sanctification on it’s head with this line of argumentation.
No, this verse is making the point that Christ’s sacrifice was perfect and is sufficient to perfect us. The verse even states, “because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.” In other words, the PROCESS of sanctification is able to make us ultimately “perfect” because of the “one sacrifice” of Christ. It is not of our own that we are sanctified, but rather of Christ.
Since you cited the verse, why don’t you tell us what you think it means. I am not a big fan of prooftexting. If you are going to use a verse, please explain how it is relevant to your point. Prooftexting is so presumptuous, as if to say that the one you are citing this verse to wouldn’t have seen it before. Or that you are some how showing them the light. I doubt that is your intent, but prooftexting comes off that way. So please exegete the passages you cite. Thanks.
I don’t typically hear people that are “open” making statements like this. Is this a game or a dialogue in pursuit of truth? I don’t need to “get around” anything. If I am wrong, I want to know it, so I can make appropriate changes. I am not Catholic because I grew up Catholic. I am Catholic because I have studied the Catholic faith, along with other faiths, and I believe it to be right.
This verse does not support your argument. I think it takes a rather nice twisting of context to arrive at the conclusion that you made. John starts this passage with, “Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray.” In other words, John believes that they CAN be lead astray. If they couldn’t be lead astray, to tell them to guard against it would be superfluous. Furthermore, we know John is speaking to Christians, because he addresses them as “children.” Or in other words, he is their spiritual father. Context is key brother.
John goes on to say, “He who does what is right is righteous,” and “He who does what is sinful is of the devil.” In other words, what a person DOES, matters. If we continue to sin, and are “lead astray” we are a child of the devil. If we continue to do what right, we become “righteous,” and are thus a child of God.
The part you seem to get tripped up on is the “cannot go on sinning” part. This does not mean he is not metaphysically capable of sinning. In fact, we know that is not true, because each one of us sins daily STILL! What he is saying is that we cannot rightly call ourselves children of God when we continue to live a life of sin. Nothing more! Again, I simply disagree with your exegesis of this passage. I can understand the confusion, but in no way does this support your position.
We have already addressed Heb 10, so no need to re-hash the same argument. However, I would point out that your point here merely begs the question. Your interpetation of Heb 10 stands entirely on the shoulders of your interpretation on 1 Jn. In other words, if you’re wrong on one, you’re wrong on both. I say that because your assumption that someone that is born of God is not metaphysically capable of sinning willfully comes from the verse in 1 Jn. This is a dangerous way of exegeting passages.
R
Redbandito
Guest
1 Jn 5 does not support your position either. 1 Jn 5 tells us what is required to be saved. He states, “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well” (1 Jn 5:1). What does it mean to say that you love the father? “This is love for God: to obey his commands” (1 Jn 5:3). In other words, I must be obedient to God’s commands, or (oh no! here it comes again) add works to my intellectual belief in God, in order to be a child of God. This is the immediate context leading up to vs. 4 which states, “for everyone born of God overcomes the world” (1 Jn 5:4).
What could this possibly mean? Is everyone who intellectually believes that Jesus is the Christ, born of God? Would this not include Judas? Judas, and many of the disciples (including Peter who doubted and denied Christ three times) intellectually believed in Christ. Yet, Judas was not a “child of God,” was he? Why not? Because Judas BETRAYED Christ and did not “obey (God’s) commands.” Judas intellectually believed, but he did not put that belief into action when the rubber met the road. Rather, Judas was disobedient and SINNED. That leads us right into 1 Jn 5:16-17.
"If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death."
What is John saying here? Remember, John is talking to “children of God.” He is saying that we can commit sin that leads to our “death” (i.e. Mortal Sin). This death is clearly spiritual, because he compares it to “sin that does not lead to death” by saying that we “should pray and God will give him life.” In other words, some sin leads to our spiritual death, and the loss of our status as “children of God.” Some sin does not have this effect, but some DOES. The fact that he tells his spiritual children this, tells us that John believes one can commit this type of sin, even AFTER becoming a child of God. Otherwise, John just likes to hear himself talk, and continues to make superfluous and irrelevant statements to us.
Thus, in context, the verses you have used do not support your position. There are a couple of verses that I will grant are a little ambiguous. But, if we look at the rest of the passages surrounding these verses, we can come to an understanding of the author’s intent. One thing I am sure of now, John and the writer of Hebrews do not support your position on justification or sanctification. God Bless!
L
Linkowski
Guest
OK - I was just able to go back and see what you wrote. I need to say this again. It does, in fact, teach once saved always saved. Do you agree?
See, now you are shifting to a totally different subject - Assurance. And we can have assurance based on 1 John 5:13.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
This is, again, based on…
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. {is born: or, has been born}
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. {is born: Gr. has been born}
1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. {is born: Gr. has been born}
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
John gives all of these guidlines and then it all culminates in 1 John 5:13…
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
For Christ to give a condition for entrance to heaven (being born again, John 3:3)…and then to dangle us over damnation saying, “you’d better hope you have it” does not seem what scripture conveys at all…we rejoice in this assurance. He came that we might have peace with God (Romans 5:1), which means that we can have assurance that we are His…sons of God, have passed from death to life, were blind but now see, deaf but now hear, dead but now alive, mute, but now speak, lame but now walk.
God Help Us,
Craig Linkowski
See, now you are shifting to a totally different subject - Assurance. And we can have assurance based on 1 John 5:13.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
This is, again, based on…
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. {is born: or, has been born}
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. {is born: Gr. has been born}
1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. {is born: Gr. has been born}
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
John gives all of these guidlines and then it all culminates in 1 John 5:13…
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
For Christ to give a condition for entrance to heaven (being born again, John 3:3)…and then to dangle us over damnation saying, “you’d better hope you have it” does not seem what scripture conveys at all…we rejoice in this assurance. He came that we might have peace with God (Romans 5:1), which means that we can have assurance that we are His…sons of God, have passed from death to life, were blind but now see, deaf but now hear, dead but now alive, mute, but now speak, lame but now walk.
God Help Us,
Craig Linkowski
L
Linkowski
Guest
I have to say that you have a very incomplete understanding of all of this…Judas was not clean as stated in John 13:10-11. Judas had other reaons for following Christ. Right in the same context, it says that “whosoever is born of God does not practice sin” - yet, you say that we can sin a sin unto death.
We will put your scripture into context as well…
1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Intellectual belief is nothing - the faith that saves is a gift of God and more than intellectual - that is in the CCC. Most people that claim to be Christians are not because they think knowing about Christ and doing good things will get them to heaven.
R
Redbandito
Guest
You’re right. Nobody had until my last post. I spent the last hour on it, but believe that should help. Just to add one thing to it, in response to this post as well though, your assertion on 1 Jn 5 merely begs the question. BECAUSE, if the way that we know “have love for God” is to “obey his commands” And the way to be “born of God” is to “believe Jesus is the Christ” and “love” the father’s “child” (i.e. Jesus), then we cannot just assume that we are saved. For nowhere does it teach that this belief is a “one-time” belief that inevitably continues. The verse actually contradicts the idea that nothing must be added to this mere intellectual assent by teaching us that to “love God” is to “keep his commands.” Thus, we are merely presumptuous to assume that we are saved, once and for all. Why? Because what happens if I stop keeping his commands as John states later? I spiritually die. Thus, salvation is the end of our perseverance, which is truly the work of God and assumes our cooperation. I hope this clarifies. God bless!
R
Redbandito
Guest
So you don’t sin anymore? Clearly hyperbole is lost on you.
And I am aware of what the CCC teaches about faith. My point is that your argument, despite your claims, leads you to rejecting the CCC’s and the Scriptures’ definition of faith.
R
Redbandito
Guest
NO! I don’t agree. Look. If one has an absolute assurance of salvation, then they are “once saved, always saved.” An absolute assurance means, by it’s very nature, that I can be sure that I am saved. Period. Once saved, always saved also means I am absolutely assured. Because if once I am saved, I am always saved, I cannot lose my salvation. And thus, I have an absolute assurance. There really is no difference.
Secondly, I think I explained quite clearly why that verse does not guarantee “once saved, always saved.” I also explained the context by which John said we “can sin” and have “spiritual death.” To die spiritually means that we must have at one time had spiritual life. Since spiritual life only comes from being “born again,” John is clearly speaking to “children of God.” Your response to suggest that because we are “born of God” we don’t continue to sin is an important mistake that you have made in two separate verses. John is not saying we are metaphysically incapable of sinning. Rather, he is using a hyperbole to make the point that any “child of God” that seeks to obey his father will be able to do so, because God has ultimately conquered sin. It does not mean that a child of God can’t sin. And it certainly makes no guarantee that a person that has been initially justified will persevere til the end.
H
HailMary
Guest
Craig, brother, what do you do with this verse?
Romans 13:11
some questions to consider:
- what “time” is the saint referring to?
- what was the “first belief?” he refers to?
- what “sleep” is he telling us to wake up from?
- how can salvation be “nearer to us now” if he was “saved” already?
R
Redbandito
Guest
Yes, I am aware that the interpretations of the verses you cite are all based on the interpretations you have of other related verses. I think I made the point already that I believe you have made a couple of important misinterpretations that are shading your interpretations of these other verses and leading you to error.
As far as your description of the Catholic view of salvation in your final paragraph, it is grossly mischaracterized. Catholics believe we can have a solid confidence, even an assurance, just not an absolute assurance. The difference is that of a guy who is going to take a test. He studied all semester, had a good breakfast, a good night sleep and has prayed about it. He is “sure” that he will make a good grade. However, his preparation does not absolutely guarantee the outcome. He has right to be confident, but ultimately the results are not up to him. Whereas, your argument would mean that the guy taking the test, due to his hard study, is absolutely guaranteed a good grade.
Again, Paul stated in 1 Cor 4:3-4, “I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent.” In other words, Paul (who of all people had the right to say he was absolutely 100% certain that he was saved), stated that just because *he *did not believe he was guilty, did not make him innocent. Thus, he doesn’t even state with 100% certainty that he is saved. Rather, Paul as the Catholic, shows that he did everything to prepare himself that he was aware of, and will leave the results in God’s hands.
L
Linkowski
Guest
Look everyone - I do not have time for this. I cannot do this anymore.
If someone wants to continue constructively through less dynamic e-mail, please let me know.
If someone wants to continue constructively through less dynamic e-mail, please let me know.
R
Redbandito
Guest
Wow! That was abrupt. I would definitely like to talk more Craig, but I would be interested in what made you slam on the brakes so quickly. We were doing well, and then EEEEEEERRRRRRRRRKKKKKKKK!
Anyway, I would like a response to my last few posts. If you would like to private message me or email me, let me know.
J
JonathanKinsman
Guest
Hooray! My prayer has been answered!
:clapping: :dancing: :tiphat: :whacky: :bowdown2: :bowdown:
:clapping: :dancing: :tiphat: :whacky: :bowdown2: :bowdown:
L
Linkowski
Guest
I have 5 kids, a wife that is 7 months pregnant, a job, a church and that takes most of my time. This is just too time consuming. I have communication with someone through e-mail when I went through my last wave of postings and I will continue with him.
There is too much nonsense being thrown around and I do not have time to clean it up. This is not to mention that there are good points as well and I have not the time for this either. Pray for me, please. I will pray for you.
Craig Linkowski
(If only we could sit face to face - I think things would be much more constructive)
There is too much nonsense being thrown around and I do not have time to clean it up. This is not to mention that there are good points as well and I have not the time for this either. Pray for me, please. I will pray for you.
Craig Linkowski
(If only we could sit face to face - I think things would be much more constructive)
- Status