R
Redbandito
Guest
You are correct Craig. I should not have said they are the same thing. I just believe the two go hand and hand, much like faith and works.
Anyway, you were right to correct me on that. Thanks.
- Status
Anyway, you were right to correct me on that. Thanks.
R
Redbandito
Guest
I was with you until the last couple of sentences here. There is a difference between “confidence” and “absolute assurance.” Absolute assurance is presumptuous and means there is something we can do (i.e. Have faith) that guarantees us salvation. This takes away the gratuity of grace. That is different than saying I am confident, but understand that it is still a gift which God gives to whom He chooses. Nothing, not even my imperfect faith, guarantees salvation. However, knowing we God as the loving and merciful Father He is, we can certainly have great confidence.
R
Redbandito
Guest
Sin, by it’s very nature, must be deliberate. I cannot commit sin by accident. It requires an act of the will, a choice. Thus, any sin we commit is still “deliberate.” I know you know that Mike, but the choice you gave Craig is not a true choice. The term “accidental sin” is an oxymoron.
M
mikeledes
Guest
M
mikeledes
Guest
Since all sin is deliberate, then Craig’s intepretation of the verse from 1 John that says those born from God cannot sin does not make any sense. If a true born again Christian commits sin, it’s not deliberate? Then what is it? The opposite of that is “accidental.” But there is no such thing as accidental sin.
God Bless,
Michael
God Bless,
Michael
D
djrakowski
Guest
Michael, thanks for reminding me of this point. I was about to say the same thing in a personal email to Mr. Linkowski. It is an excellent point, because the verse doesn’t say what an easy, quick reading of it tells you at first.
By the way, my Catholic brothers, you’ve done an excellent job of describing our views on this subject. Keep up the good work!
R
Redbandito
Guest
Craig, this was a pretty arrogant and judgmental paragraph. Do you assume that because we disagree with you that we are attempting to “delay believing the truth about soteriology and how it is brought forth in Scripture?” Do you assume that we do not ALREADY “study it for (ourselves) and seek the truth about what the Scriptures are saying?” I don’t find that to be congruent with your claims of openness. And I certainly don’t think this shows a charitable, Christian heart. For the record, I studied the Scriptures with Bible Christians BEFORE I became a Catholic. I have been, and continue to be, open to the truth of the Gospel.
And “easy believism” is still synonomous with “once saved, always saved.” You can package “once saved, always saved” however you want. But the reality is that the logical, natural end to this belief is that once I have said the “Sinner’s Prayer” sincerely, I cannot lose my salvation, no matter what. So, to say otherwise is the true meaning of a word game.
In all honesty, I am concerned about the recent tone of your posts. I believe that you have been treated with a great deal of charity since being here. Charity does not mean we have to abandon our position because you have written a couple of posts. Frankly, I have not been even remotely convinced by the Scriptures you presented. I responded with what I deem to be the correct exegesis of those passages, and you have failed to continue on that train of thought. Again, this does not smack of openness Craig. I am not going to call you a liar. I will give you the benefit of the doubt. However, I would like to see some of this “openness” you have talked about, rather than staunchly defending the “Protestant position” while neglecting to engage points that may be hard for you to “get around.”
Well, the example of your Pastor is the very thing that is wrong with Protestantism. Your Pastor was just honest enough to admit it. You can cite all the verses you want, but the reality is that the formal doctrine of “Faith Alone” preceded the material evidence for it. Christians are taught faith alone, and then shown all the verses that “prove” it. Faith Alone is a tradition that is ingrained in Protestantism. Therefore, no matter how many verses contradict this tradition, the honest Protestant is always left saying, “We believe this - so it cannot mean that”. Or, they will answer the troubling verse by throwing another verse that they believe “contradicts” that verse as a prooftext for their position (as you had attempted to do before agreeing to stick to the initial points).
So if you are going to make such an accusation, the least you could do is call the people out by name that you are accusing. Are you saying that all the Catholics in this thread are “purposefully misunderstanding?” If so, that is quite presumptuous and also begs the question. Because the reality remains, that unless you are infallible in your interpretation of Scripture (are you willing to make that claim?) that it is YOU who are misunderstanding. And I would be careful about discussing “Bias.” Nobody in here is a blank slate. We all are shaded to one degree or another. Nevertheless, I remain open to truth. “Judge not lest thee be judged.”
To your final sentence, Amen!
R
Redbandito
Guest
Excellent point. Sorry, just wanted to clarify.
M
mikeledes
Guest
That’s okay. I like the points you made in the previous post to Craig. Many Protestants use two tactics when confronted with a verse that contradicts their theology:
- They throw at us a whole bunch of verses and then evade answeing the “problematic” ones, as if those verses automatically make the problematic ones mean something else. That’s like the Jehovah’s Witnesses giving a laundry list of verses that refer to Jesus’s humanity in a vain effort to counteract those that clearly discuss His divinity.
- When you reject their interpretation of these verses and show them how it doesn’t make sense, they respond by accusing us of “unbelief”, “deliberately misunderstanding,”
“being closed minded,” not realizing that these same accusations can be thrown back at them. At this point, trying to convince them of the veracity of Catholic teaching on justification and salvation is like trying to convince the Pharisees that Jesus is the Messiah. No matter how many miracles Jesus did, the Pharisees refused to believe.
Michael
L
Linkowski
Guest
I apologize for my tone. It can be frustrating dealing with so many questions at one time and to see obvious misunderstanding after so much time put into a post.
I was not accusing everyone and I, again, do not have the time to point out everything…irregardless here is the problem.
Example:
Romans 13:11 KJV 11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
This is talking about the salvation that we will have in removing the body of this death - our wicked sinful nature. Not our future salvation from the standpoint of the rebirth.
An answer to another…
1 Corinthians 4:3-5 KJV 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
This is speaking of his handling of the mysteries of God - not salvation. I think Paul was aware of sin in life. See Romans 7 as to Paul’s awareness of his sin.
Showing that Abraham was justified on three different occasions…I really cannot see this as meaning that he was actually justified at those moments in time (to say it multiple times) but to say that he was proven to indeed be justified by his faith works.
Now to look at another thing…
Let us look at the logic of “once saved always saved” and assurance of salvation.
For once saved always saved…you must BE saved.
For assurance of salvation, this is having to do with knowing whether or not you are saved. In this case, you may be saved, you may not.
It is clear to me that we would need to be sitting face to face for this although I think it is pretty clear logic.
Now, here are some questions from me…what does it mean in the multiple scriptures…“Whatsoever is born of God”? Is this a past event? Is it having to do with passing from death to life?
Craig Linkowski
I was not accusing everyone and I, again, do not have the time to point out everything…irregardless here is the problem.
- I post something
- 10 people respond
- I am bogged down with 100 questions to answer
Example:
Romans 13:11 KJV 11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
This is talking about the salvation that we will have in removing the body of this death - our wicked sinful nature. Not our future salvation from the standpoint of the rebirth.
An answer to another…
1 Corinthians 4:3-5 KJV 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
This is speaking of his handling of the mysteries of God - not salvation. I think Paul was aware of sin in life. See Romans 7 as to Paul’s awareness of his sin.
Showing that Abraham was justified on three different occasions…I really cannot see this as meaning that he was actually justified at those moments in time (to say it multiple times) but to say that he was proven to indeed be justified by his faith works.
Now to look at another thing…
Let us look at the logic of “once saved always saved” and assurance of salvation.
For once saved always saved…you must BE saved.
For assurance of salvation, this is having to do with knowing whether or not you are saved. In this case, you may be saved, you may not.
It is clear to me that we would need to be sitting face to face for this although I think it is pretty clear logic.
Now, here are some questions from me…what does it mean in the multiple scriptures…“Whatsoever is born of God”? Is this a past event? Is it having to do with passing from death to life?
Craig Linkowski
M
mikeledes
Guest
Being born of God is something that happens in the past, that is, if you’re talking about regeneration. However, being born of God does not mean everything is completed and now you’re perfect. Nor does it mean that you are assured salvation. For example, I believe you have said that sanctification is a process. The Bible clearly states that we are renewed day by day and are continually confromed to the image of Jesus Christ. If we deliberately fail to conform our lives to the gift of righteousness, then we will be disinherited.
God bless,
Michael
God bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
How about a response to this? This was originally directed to myfavoritemartin, but I never got a response. If you keep listing other verses, you will be overwhelmed with responses.
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
The following is the New International Version 's translation of John 15:1-6
**1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
“Abide” and “remain” mean the same thing, as clarified by the context (v.4). You cannot remain in something that you were never a part of to begin with. It’s like me telling you, “Remain in my house.” Well, if you’re not in my house in the first place, then how can you remain. To remain or abide means to CONTINUE. If this “abiding” or “remaining” happens automatically (perseverance of the saints), then Jesus would have no need to consistently urge anyone to abide in Him and would never mention the possibility of not continuing to abide in Him.
Therefore, if “Once saved always saved” is true, then how can anyone cease to remain in Christ (v. 6)? Why would Jesus Himself raise this possibility if this were not possible? Secondly, the standard for remaining in Christ is bearing fruit (i.e. a holy life characterized by keeping the commandments and good works). We know that bearing fruit does not happen automatically, as if the regenerated person suddenly becomes a robot programmed to do good:
2 Peter 1:5-9 (New International Version)
**For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. **
Something that involves effort or diligence means that it does not happen automatcially.
Going back to Hebrews 10:26, it talks about someone who has received “knowledge of the truth.” The phrase “knowledge of the truth,” Craig, always refers to the kind of knowledge a genuinely saved person receives and posseses. For example:
2 Timothy 2:25
… if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to knowledge of the truth."
Repentance, therefore, must precede knowledge of the truth. Also…
2 Timothy 3:7
… always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
So only those who have been genuinely saved can receive knowledge of the truth in the sense that the Bible uses it. This, combined with the use of the word “we” (hence including the divinely inspired author) and the reference to someone sanctified by the blood of Christ, means that Hebrews 10:25-29 can only be referring to genuinely saved Christians who ultimately fall away. This is reinforced by John 15 and a number of other passages, such as Exodus 32:32-33. How can someone be erased from the Book of Life if “Once Saved Always Saved” is true? Remember, only the genuinely saved can be in this book in the first place.
God Bless,
Michael
**1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
Code:
5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. **Therefore, if “Once saved always saved” is true, then how can anyone cease to remain in Christ (v. 6)? Why would Jesus Himself raise this possibility if this were not possible? Secondly, the standard for remaining in Christ is bearing fruit (i.e. a holy life characterized by keeping the commandments and good works). We know that bearing fruit does not happen automatically, as if the regenerated person suddenly becomes a robot programmed to do good:
2 Peter 1:5-9 (New International Version)
**For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. **
Something that involves effort or diligence means that it does not happen automatcially.
Going back to Hebrews 10:26, it talks about someone who has received “knowledge of the truth.” The phrase “knowledge of the truth,” Craig, always refers to the kind of knowledge a genuinely saved person receives and posseses. For example:
2 Timothy 2:25
… if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to knowledge of the truth."
Repentance, therefore, must precede knowledge of the truth. Also…
2 Timothy 3:7
… always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
So only those who have been genuinely saved can receive knowledge of the truth in the sense that the Bible uses it. This, combined with the use of the word “we” (hence including the divinely inspired author) and the reference to someone sanctified by the blood of Christ, means that Hebrews 10:25-29 can only be referring to genuinely saved Christians who ultimately fall away. This is reinforced by John 15 and a number of other passages, such as Exodus 32:32-33. How can someone be erased from the Book of Life if “Once Saved Always Saved” is true? Remember, only the genuinely saved can be in this book in the first place.
God Bless,
Michael
R
Redbandito
Guest
Fair enough. Apology accepted. I can certainly understand the frustration from that perspective.
Just do your best Craig. Try to remember that we are all here to discuss the truth of the Gospel. Jesus wants us to be one, as He is one with the Father. That unity must be in TRUTH and SPIRIT. Thus, let us remain charitable to each other at all times.
Whoa, whoa, whoa! Craig, I appreciate your attempt here, but NOWHERE in the context of this verse is a distinction made between different salvations. The only way to arrive at this conclusion is to first assume that there are different types of salvation, and that any verse that would contradict faith alone, assurance of salvation, or once saved always saved must be talking about the other type. I am going to have to see a more thorough exegesis on your part, OF THIS PASSAGE, to see any other possible ways you could have arrived at this conclusion. As it stands, your point merely begs the question. That question is, "How do you know that this salvation is not “our future salvation” other than resorting to the good ole Protestant slogan, “We believe this - so it cannot mean that”.
I’m not following you here. You’re telling me that Paul is “not” speaking of salvation, yet Paul makes very clear that his IS. Verse 4 states," For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified." I get the feeling you’re confused on the meaning of this. Paul is NOT saying he is justified. He is saying that simply because he is not “aware” or “conscious” of any sin in his life, that this does not mean He is indeed innocent. To show that this is the correct understanding of the KJV, check out the NIV and NASB translations which are much more clear in our language.
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%204;&version=49;
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%204;&version=31;
In other words, Paul is not willing to say he is justified simply because HE isn’t aware of any sin in his life. Rather, he (like all of us) must wait for GOD to expose the motives in each man’s heart.
As far as Paul believing he still sins, I agree. I am very well acquainted with Rom 7, as I am a substance abuse counselor and use it to teach step one. This only strengthens my point, not weakens it.
What? You “cannot” or “will not” “see this as meaning he was justified at those moments in time?” The Scripture is quite clear in what it says. The Scripture says, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?” This verse does not say his justification was “proven.” The verse says he was JUSTIFIED! Again, the only way to arrive at a different conclusion is to continue to state that justification is a one-time event and therefore James must mean something else. That is the equivalent to what you’re saying here.
R
Redbandito
Guest
Continued…
I agree that the “logic is pretty clear,” but I do not think that the logic you speak of is coming from your position. So far, I have been able to point out several logical inconsistencies that you have been unable to answer (at least to my satisfaction). Maybe this is due to time, or maybe it is that your position is inherently indefensible. Either way, merely brushing off a couple of verses with a, “It can’t mean that” type statement is certainly not going to advance us any closer to truth. In order to reconcile our respective positions, you’re going to have to explain, in depth, the verses that apparently contradict your position. We’re going to have to do likewise. So far, I have answered your major proof texts in a couple of extensive posts. You have given a couple of paragraphs, at most, to James, 1 Cor 4, and the myriad of other texts. I understand time constraints, but in that case, I would advise you not to introduce new arguments until you have adequately addressed the old ones.
Being “born of God” is equivalent to being “born from above” or “born again.” Thus, it would be a past event for anyone who has received baptism. And it would be analogous to “passing from death to life” in the sense that Paul states in Rom 6:4 “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.” With that being said, this verse does not make any indication that we cannot forfeit that “life.”
Don’t be so quick to run off Craig. The last three points you made were like, “Wham, Bam, Thank you Mam!” I don’t believe you paid them their proper due. Dismissing them off hand, only goes to strengthen the Catholic position that Protestants ignore the verses that put their theology into a quandry and throw out a multitude of other verses in order to deflect the attention.
I agree with the distinction you made. I already made the point that I was wrong. No worries.
I agree that the “logic is pretty clear,” but I do not think that the logic you speak of is coming from your position. So far, I have been able to point out several logical inconsistencies that you have been unable to answer (at least to my satisfaction). Maybe this is due to time, or maybe it is that your position is inherently indefensible. Either way, merely brushing off a couple of verses with a, “It can’t mean that” type statement is certainly not going to advance us any closer to truth. In order to reconcile our respective positions, you’re going to have to explain, in depth, the verses that apparently contradict your position. We’re going to have to do likewise. So far, I have answered your major proof texts in a couple of extensive posts. You have given a couple of paragraphs, at most, to James, 1 Cor 4, and the myriad of other texts. I understand time constraints, but in that case, I would advise you not to introduce new arguments until you have adequately addressed the old ones.
Being “born of God” is equivalent to being “born from above” or “born again.” Thus, it would be a past event for anyone who has received baptism. And it would be analogous to “passing from death to life” in the sense that Paul states in Rom 6:4 “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.” With that being said, this verse does not make any indication that we cannot forfeit that “life.”
P
PabbyMan2000
Guest
This seems like a chicken or the egg argument. With one guy vehemently stating that it’s the chicken that came first And another equally pontificating “No, no, no. It must be the egg that came first”.
And I must be an idiot for jumping into the middle of all this. But I can’t resist throwing in my 2 cents.
Paul states in Ephesians 2:8-9:
“8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.”
Then James seems to contradict him in James 2:24:
“24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.”
OK so here is my understanding: We’re all evil and we’re going to Hell because we’ve done so many stupid things that’s what we deserve but then just before we completely go off the deep end (Suicide) we drop to our knees sobbing and begging God to forgive us. So that moment when you turn away from sin and ask God to save you that’s the act of Faith (Complete Surrender) that opens the door for God to send down the Holy Spirit (gift from God) and save us. He saves us because he loves us and he doesn’t want us to go to Hell. We are saved because we had enough Faith to turn to God and ask for his mercy and that Faith is what enables us to turn our lives around and do good works instead of evil deeds. But if we do good works we shouldn’t boast about it because then it doesn’t count. Because when we die and stand before God on Judgement Day we’re going to be judged not by how much faith we had but on what our actions (Works) were.
And I must be an idiot for jumping into the middle of all this. But I can’t resist throwing in my 2 cents.
Paul states in Ephesians 2:8-9:
“8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.”
Then James seems to contradict him in James 2:24:
“24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.”
OK so here is my understanding: We’re all evil and we’re going to Hell because we’ve done so many stupid things that’s what we deserve but then just before we completely go off the deep end (Suicide) we drop to our knees sobbing and begging God to forgive us. So that moment when you turn away from sin and ask God to save you that’s the act of Faith (Complete Surrender) that opens the door for God to send down the Holy Spirit (gift from God) and save us. He saves us because he loves us and he doesn’t want us to go to Hell. We are saved because we had enough Faith to turn to God and ask for his mercy and that Faith is what enables us to turn our lives around and do good works instead of evil deeds. But if we do good works we shouldn’t boast about it because then it doesn’t count. Because when we die and stand before God on Judgement Day we’re going to be judged not by how much faith we had but on what our actions (Works) were.
J
Jim_Baur
Guest
Love is first.
Love is first in a cardinal sense, not in an ordinal sense.
Jesus clearly teaches this. The first commandment is to love.
Thus the “Chichen and Egg” is solved. (GOD CREATED THE CHICHEN AND ITS SPOUSE FIRST, RIGHT.)
Furthermore, I Thess. 5: 8 … put on the breastplate of faith and love. In conjunction with Eph 6: 14… the breastplate of righteousness.
Therefore both love and faith are needed to for righteousness.
Whoever does not love remains in death (I John 4: 14).
Righteousness includes faith and love.
Let me know what you think.
Love is first in a cardinal sense, not in an ordinal sense.
Jesus clearly teaches this. The first commandment is to love.
Thus the “Chichen and Egg” is solved. (GOD CREATED THE CHICHEN AND ITS SPOUSE FIRST, RIGHT.)
Furthermore, I Thess. 5: 8 … put on the breastplate of faith and love. In conjunction with Eph 6: 14… the breastplate of righteousness.
Therefore both love and faith are needed to for righteousness.
Whoever does not love remains in death (I John 4: 14).
Righteousness includes faith and love.
Let me know what you think.
P
PabbyMan2000
Guest
Sounds good to me.
1 John 2:9
“9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.”
1 John 2:9
“9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.”
L
Linkowski
Guest
And the circle continues only to never end.
I hope you will all forgive me for my craziness sometimes. I really have to say that I was not behaving right in some cases. I am very passionate about these things and want to understand the truth deeper and deeper day by day - even if it means becoming Catholic again.
With regard to James 2…I am not sure why you always want separate faith and works as if they are separate…
James 2:18 KJV 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith BY my works.
Works flow from faith and are the only works that are worth anything (otherwise they are vain). If they were separate you would have contradiction in scripture…
Romans 5:1 KJV 1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
James 2:21 KJV 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Is this a contradiction…NO - they complement. Faith works - if a racoon is dead - you will not see any work. If it is alive, it moves. Living faith…working faith…
Galatians 5:6 KJV 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Living faith…
I hope you will all forgive me for my craziness sometimes. I really have to say that I was not behaving right in some cases. I am very passionate about these things and want to understand the truth deeper and deeper day by day - even if it means becoming Catholic again.
With regard to James 2…I am not sure why you always want separate faith and works as if they are separate…
James 2:18 KJV 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith BY my works.
Works flow from faith and are the only works that are worth anything (otherwise they are vain). If they were separate you would have contradiction in scripture…
Romans 5:1 KJV 1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
James 2:21 KJV 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Is this a contradiction…NO - they complement. Faith works - if a racoon is dead - you will not see any work. If it is alive, it moves. Living faith…working faith…
Galatians 5:6 KJV 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Living faith…
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
STOP!
Talk about coming full circle…I began this thread by stating that the doctrine of sola fide, faith alone, is not taught in the Bible. I raised the issue because non-Catholics repeatedly try to hammer us by claiming that we are trying to earn our way into heaven.
Now, you have just said “you [Catholics] always want [to] separate faith and works as if they are separate”.
Huh?
Catholics are the ones who have always argued that we are saved “not by faith alone” but by faith and works that cannot be separated.
Since you are now arguing in favor of our position, I think our work is done here! :tiphat:
- Status