Not By Faith Alone

[mikeledes]

Michael,

I will assume that you inadvertently hit the [enter] key on your computer before you came to your “Christian” senses and deleted that last paragraph.

You have posted quite a bit, and I will answer you. But I am not going to answer you on a particular point at a time because something is sure to be neglected by doing that.

BA

If you actually tackle the verses I have presented and answer my questions, then I will have a lot of respect for you, not that I don’t respect you now. I am open to alternative interpretations. Of course, I will test it against other Scipture passages, common sense, and basic rules of grammar and semantics. Thank you for taking the time to respond .

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I have a few question for Protestants.

1. What is sanctification?
2. How is it accomplished?
3. Is it a process?
4. What role do good works play?

Thanks and God Bless,
Michael

 

[Randy_Carson]

“Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the LORD a man avoids evil.” (Proverbs 16:6 NIV)

 

[Randy_Carson]

Excellent posts Randy. I don’t think anything needs to be added to that. Thank you for your work.

:bowdown: Randy, this is the best post I have read on the Catholic Church’s teaching on justification. :clapping: I know who I’ll be contacting whenever there is a thread on justifcation. I haven’t heard from myfavoritemartin. It would be interesting to hear a response from him.

Thanks, guys. I appreciate all your hard work in this tedious thread. :tiphat:

For more work by Fr. Most, see: catholicculture.org/docs/most/start.cfm

BTW, I’m just tonight beginning The Salvation Controversy by James Akin. I’m only a couple of chapters in, but I can assure you that you want to go over to Amazon.com and order it **now! **

 

[Randy_Carson]

Better to just accept the plain sense of Scripture and move on.

Like they do with John 6?

 

[Redbandito]

Thanks, guys. I appreciate all your hard work in this tedious thread. :tiphat:

For more work by Fr. Most, see: catholicculture.org/docs/most/start.cfm

BTW, I’m just tonight beginning The Salvation Controversy by James Akin. I’m only a couple of chapters in, but I can assure you that you want to go over to Amazon.com and order it **now! **

Yeah, I read it a couple of years back. Great book! It resides on my shelf as a reference to this day. Enjoy it.

 

[HailMary]

Thanks, guys. I appreciate all your hard work in this tedious thread. :tiphat:

For more work by Fr. Most, see: catholicculture.org/docs/most/start.cfm

BTW, I’m just tonight beginning The Salvation Controversy by James Akin. I’m only a couple of chapters in, but I can assure you that you want to go over to Amazon.com and order it **now! **

Amazon? Why support them when you can support Catholic Answers:
shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/p-CB258.html?E+scstore

 

[mikeledes]

I have a few question for Protestants.

1. What is sanctification?
2. How is it accomplished?
3. Is it a process?
4. What role do good works play?

Thanks and God Bless,
Michael

:yawn: No responses. Oh well.

 

[Linkowski]

:yawn: No responses. Oh well.

Hello, mikeledes…I have to admit, these are very in-depth questions and I am sure that I cannot answer from scripture in its entirety but I will take a crack at this…

1. What is sanctification?
   This has many meanings - in one sense it is an event, and another it is a process. It basically means “set-apart” I believe.

Heb 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
1Co 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Also, this is the process by which we are made more and more like Christ by the inner working of the Holy Spirit and feeding on the Word of God.

1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;
Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen
2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

It is a gradual cleansing which I have certainly experienced over the past 8 years or so.

Again, you ask a very loaded set of questions. I usually like to respond with very thorough answers but that will take hours and space.

1. How is it accomplished?
   Through the Word of God as shown in scripture above and by the power of the Spirit and by the blood of Christ. It happens at the rebirth (those who are born of God are set apart by the blood of Christ) and throughout the life of a Christian.
2. Is it a process? Yes and no - see above.
3. What role do good works play?
   Good works are an outflowing of God’s work in and through us and these works perfect our faith. Good works are brought forth as we were created unto good works.

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Php 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Then there is Justification - which means to be declared righteous. I won’t get into that now.

It is all of God and by His grace.

Craig Linkowski

 

[Linkowski]

I would also like us to take a look at this Scripture. What does this mean?

1John 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.

Craig Linkowski

 

[Redbandito]

Hello, mikeledes…I have to admit, these are very in-depth questions and I am sure that I cannot answer from scripture in its entirety but I will take a crack at this…

1. What is sanctification?
   This has many meanings - in one sense it is an event, and another it is a process. It basically means “set-apart” I believe.

Heb 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
1Co 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Also, this is the process by which we are made more and more like Christ by the inner working of the Holy Spirit and feeding on the Word of God.

1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;
Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen
2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

It is a gradual cleansing which I have certainly experienced over the past 8 years or so.

Again, you ask a very loaded set of questions. I usually like to respond with very thorough answers but that will take hours and space.

1. How is it accomplished?
   Through the Word of God as shown in scripture above and by the power of the Spirit and by the blood of Christ. It happens at the rebirth (those who are born of God are set apart by the blood of Christ) and throughout the life of a Christian.
2. Is it a process? Yes and no - see above.
3. What role do good works play?
   Good works are an outflowing of God’s work in and through us and these works perfect our faith. Good works are brought forth as we were created unto good works.

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Php 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Then there is Justification - which means to be declared righteous. I won’t get into that now.

It is all of God and by His grace.

Craig Linkowski

Thanks for the response Craig. I appreciate your efforts to honestly contribute to this thread. The thing in your post I am not clear on is, how is sanctification a process and not a process at the same time? Could you explain this more to me? I actually agree, for the most part, with your ideas on sanctification. I do believe it is a process. However, I would like to hear a more in depth explanation of this. Are you saying that sanctification from your perspective is much like the Catholic view of justification? Catholics view justification from the perspective on an initial justification and then the process afterward. Is that your view of sanctification?

Also, many non-Catholics believe justification occurs once, and then sanctification takes over. If you are one who espouses such a belief, what is your take on 1 Cor 6:11?
“And that is what some of you were. But you were washed (baptized), you were sanctified (sanctification comes first here), you were justified (justification follows sanctification) in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” Catholics believe justification and sanctification continue to occur simulataneously. Where are you on this issue? Thanks in advance for your explanation.

 

[mikeledes]

Thank you Craig At least someone responded. So is sanctification a cooperation between the Holy Spirit and the Christian? Is keeping the commandments essential for sanctification?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Linkowski]

Thanks for the response Craig. I appreciate your efforts to honestly contribute to this thread. The thing in your post I am not clear on is, how is sanctification a process and not a process at the same time? Could you explain this more to me? I actually agree, for the most part, with your ideas on sanctification. I do believe it is a process. However, I would like to hear a more in depth explanation of this. Are you saying that sanctification from your perspective is much like the Catholic view of justification? Catholics view justification from the perspective on an initial justification and then the process afterward. Is that your view of sanctification?

Also, many non-Catholics believe justification occurs once, and then sanctification takes over. If you are one who espouses such a belief, what is your take on 1 Cor 6:11?
“And that is what some of you were. But you were washed (baptized), you were sanctified (sanctification comes first here), you were justified (justification follows sanctification) in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” Catholics believe justification and sanctification continue to occur simulataneously. Where are you on this issue? Thanks in advance for your explanation.

Thank you Craig At least someone responded. So is sanctification a cooperation between the Holy Spirit and the Christian? Is keeping the commandments essential for sanctification?

God Bless,
Michael

I am just leaving work and will try to get back later. I want to study about this in depth. At this point, I will say that I believe that there is a one-time justification but, I continue to seek truth and am open to prayerful study on this subject in the scriptures. Certainly, with regard to keeping the commandments, 1 John 2:3 makes it clear…

1Jo 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

One way that we know that we are in Christ is if we love his law as Paul says in Romans 7:
Romans 7:22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,

Ofcourse, he goes on to say that this sinful nature that we have wars against our inward man and we battle sin. Observing the commandments is a result of our being Born of the Spirit and our sanctification. I will get back to you on things that I might not have addressed - especially justification.

God Bless,
Craig Linkowski

May God help us to seek and find the truth.

 

[mikeledes]

I would also like us to take a look at this Scripture. What does this mean?

1John 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.

Craig Linkowski

Let’s look at this passage within its context:

1 John 5:2-5

"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
For this is the love of God, **that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. **
** For **whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.

Through our faith in Christ, we share in His victory over sin and death. Through faith we have access to all that is needed for our sanctification. Through faith, the commandments are not “burdensome” and we are able to do those things pleasing to God.

God bless,
Michael

 

[Linkowski]

In the meantime, I would like to see your understanding of 1John 5:4…

1Jo 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.

Another one is Hebrews 3:14 which seems to guarantee our perseverence:

Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Also…

Joh 13:7 Jesus answered and said to him, “What I do you do not realize now, but you will understand hereafter.”
8 Peter *said to Him, “Never shall You wash my feet!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.”
9 Simon Peter *said to Him, “Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head.”
10 Jesus *said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”

God Bless You.

 

[mikeledes]

I am just leaving work and will try to get back later. I want to study about this in depth. At this point, I will say that I believe that there is a one-time justification but, I continue to seek truth and am open to prayerful study on this subject in the scriptures. Certainly, with regard to keeping the commandments, 1 John 2:3 makes it clear…

1Jo 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

One way that we know that we are in Christ is if we love his law as Paul says in Romans 7:
Romans 7:22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,

Ofcourse, he goes on to say that this sinful nature that we have wars against our inward man and we battle sin. Observing the commandments is a result of our being Born of the Spirit and our sanctification. I will get back to you on things that I might not have addressed - especially justification.

God Bless,
Craig Linkowski

May God help us to seek and find the truth.

Except for what you said on justification, I agree with you. We believe, as Catholics, that the love of God is poured into our hearts when we are justified/regenerated. Love is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. It is this love that must motivate our keeping of the commandments and any other good work that we do. The unregenerate do not have this love that comes from God.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Since you’re coming back, Craig, maybe you can also answer the following questions:

James 2:14

"What use is it my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith SAVE him?

This is basically the question James has set out to answer and thus sets the tone for the rest of the chapter. The answer must be related to how we are saved because the question clearly brings up the issue of salvation (i.e. “save him”). He concludes by saying:

James 2:24

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Here are the questions:

1. Is the faith mentioned in verse 24 genuine faith?
2. Is this verse talking about justification? If not, why does James use the word “justified”?

God bless,
Michael

 

[Linkowski]

Except for what you said on justification, I agree with you. We believe, as Catholics, that the love of God is poured into our hearts when we are justified/regenerated. Love is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. It is this love that must motivate our keeping of the commandments and any other good work that we do. The unregenerate do not have this love that comes from God.

God Bless,
Michael

But you do not believe once saved always saved (perseverance of the saints). This is what these verses teach…whatsoever is born of God overcomes the world…this leaves us out of these scriptures…

Hebrews 10:26-29 NAS95 26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Hebrews 6:4-7 NAS95 4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;

2 Peter 2:20-22 NAS95 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

These are scriptures that are typically used to show that we can lose our salvation. But, in light of 1 John 5:4 and other scriptures that indicate the inevitable perseverance of those people who are born of God, those of us that examine ourselves in light of the “tests” in first John have this assurance, that we will persevere. Question…is being born of God, passing from death to life, becoming a son of God a process or an event??? I believe that scripture teaches that justification is an event. I will get back to you with scriptures that specifically address justification later.
Speaking of events, were Jesus’ miracles processes or events…

I WAS SPIRITUALLY BLIND BUT NOW SEE, I WAS SPIRITUALLY DEAF BUT CAN NOW HEAR, SPIRITUALLY DEAD BUT NOW LIVE, SPIRITUALLY LAME BUT NOW WALK, SPIRITUALLY MUTE BUT NOW SPEAK.

God Bless,
Craig Linkowski

 

[Linkowski]

I just saw your new posting and will have to respond to that later as well…I have to go.

 

[mikeledes]

But you do not believe once saved always saved (perseverance of the saints). This is what these verses teach…whatsoever is born of God overcomes the world…this leaves us out of these scriptures…

Hebrews 10:26-29 NAS95 26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Hebrews 6:4-7 NAS95 4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;

2 Peter 2:20-22 NAS95 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

These are scriptures that are typically used to show that we can lose our salvation. But, in light of 1 John 5:4 and other scriptures that indicate the inevitable perseverance of those people who are born of God, those of us that examine ourselves in light of the “tests” in first John have this assurance, that we will persevere. Question…is being born of God, passing from death to life, becoming a son of God a process or an event??? I believe that scripture teaches that justification is an event. I will get back to you with scriptures that specifically address justification later.
Speaking of events, were Jesus’ miracles processes or events…

I WAS SPIRITUALLY BLIND BUT NOW SEE, I WAS SPIRITUALLY DEAF BUT CAN NOW HEAR, SPIRITUALLY DEAD BUT NOW LIVE, SPIRITUALLY LAME BUT NOW WALK, SPIRITUALLY MUTE BUT NOW SPEAK.

God Bless,
Craig Linkowski

The verses you listed clearly point to the opposite of what you’re saying regarding the verse from 1 John. Hebrews 10 mentions someone who has been sanctified by the blood of Christ. No one can be sanctified by the blood of Christ unless they had been saved at some point. Nor can someone be erased from the Book of Life (Exodus 32:32-33) unless they were in there to begin with. Also look at John 15. No one can be united to Christ unless they have been genuinely justified. No one (i.e. branch) can be “taken away” from something they were never a part of (i.e. the Vine, Christ). No one can be a “branch” unless they were an integral and real part of the “Vine.” Note that that those branches that do not abide (i.e. remain) in Christ are cut off, dry up (symbolizing spiritual death after being cut off from the source of life) and thrown into the fire (eternal damnation). The overwhelming testimony of the Bible shows that the verse from 1 John must be interpreted differently.

Through faith, God has empowered us to overcome. This, however, presupposes that we must continue in this faith and do what the God’s empowerment through faith was meant to do, walking in righteousness by keeping the commandments.

God Bless,
Michael