Not just another CITH Thread...

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This is an interesting read. I may have posted it already. In any event, check out the bottow of page 3: philippineaid.org/transfer/CIH.pdf
I’m a slow reader, so I gave up after about the first four pages. :o

It sounds to me like the dude who got excommunicated was making some good points, so I hope that doesn’t make me a heretic. 😛

What I think he missed is the whole value of tradition.

Where I think he had a point is whether priests’ hands are somehow more holy than hands of laity. Only in an external sense would such a thing be true; we know that being ordained a priest is not a predictor of internals – at least not as evidenced by lifestyle issues. But for tradition, the priest is the one with the robe; the priest is the one doing the transubstantiation; the priest can very well be the sole distributors – but not because they or their hands are more holy, more like they “get to wear the hat” because they’ve “committed themselves” to the Lord via ordination.
 
The Church is the Church. The four marks of the true Church is Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and ONE.

We should stop dividing the Body of Christ into Traditionalist and Liberal, Latin and Byzantine. Its one Church. What’s good for one is good for all.
While the Church is indeed one, each Rite has its own tradtions that have developed and shouldn’t these be practiced and preserved.
 
Enchanted’s understanding of the Code of 1917 is correct. This law restricting the touching of the Eucharist to the ordained was introduced in1917 and was modified in 1983. It was a short-lived law, given a 2000 year history. Also, today we have only three orders in the Sacrament of Holy Orders: deacon, presbyter and bishop. We must be careful when we say that only a priest can touch the Eucharist. This is not true. The rule is that all the ordained can do so. The practice was made law in 1917, because it had been the tradition of the Roman Church for many centuries. As often happens, the tradition is born first and the law follows. But the tradition was one of discipline, not doctrine.

Although St. Thomas Aquinas thought of it as doctrine, his friend and colleague, St. Bonaventure, refuted him. Thus it never became a doctrine. Rome always treated the question as a disciplinary one, not a doctrinal one. It was probably the most prudent path to take, given that you had to theological heavy-weights on opposite sides and both had very strong arguments to sustain their positions. Aquinas used logic and Bonaventure used history.

The ordinary minister of Holy Communion is the ordained man. However, even in the Roman Church, there have always been exceptions to almost every discipline. Since the laity does not live inside the enclosure of a male monastery or friary, it is not privy to the fact that many abbeys and provinces of friars were excempt from this discipline.

It is important to understand how and why it was allowed that non-ordained religiuos men had the indult for centuries. Some founders of the old religious orders founded with the intent to found brotherhoods, not orders of priests. They deliberately avoided all customs and practices that distinguished the ordained brothers from the lay brothers. Observe the use of the terms: monk and friar. They applied to both the ordained and the lay who made solemn vows. They are orders with two states: lay (not as in the secular lay person) and clerics. There were other orders that were clerical orders, meaning that they were for priests and the few lay brothers that they had, were bound to the same rules to which the Church binds the secular laity.

Those orders founded upon for the sole purpose of living the Gospel as brotherhoods, avoided distinctions between the ordained and the non-ordained. The Franciscans have been the largest of these orders, but not the only one. This was especially important to us, because our founder was not a priest. To preserve the unity of the order, as he founded it, it was always important to avoid clericalism. The early friars and monks did not need such things as altar rails, kneelers and other elements commonly found in a parish church. They gathered for mass and the Divine Office as a brotherhood, without separations. Eventually, they installed choir stalls on either side of the altar, instead of the model that many of us know, where everyone is facing in the same direction. Friars (Franciscan, Carmelites, etc) borrowed this model from the Benedictine liturgical tradition. The altar was between two sets of stalls that faced each other. Everyone was seeing the priest from the side, not the back. Facing ad orientem had a slightly different meaning for these communities.

Why is this important to this discussion? For one thing, is proves that it is not heresy to face the altar from another angle. If it were, it would never have been approved as a venerable practice and one that promoted brotherhood and united a community as the Apostles were united to each other. It also proves that the liturgical life of the Church has been influenced by many schools of spirituality, especially Benedictine and Franciscan. For example, the Franciscans introduced the tabernacle on the main altar in the 13th century. It is important to know that this came to us because of Francis’ poverty. The friars lived in very small houses with one room for prayer.

The monks lived in monasteries. They had the abbey Church and they had a separate chapel. The great Cathedrals never had it in the Church either. This was a later development as the Franciscan school spread. Artists began to build elaborate and beautiful central altars to enshrine the tabernacle to place the tabernacle.

The more that we know about the tradition that we’re defending, the better we can defend it, without going overboard. Certainly, to suggest that something like CITH is wrong, can be overboard, since it has been allowed by the Church for many people in many regions and situations, long before this indult. In addition, it has been allowed in some of the other Catholic Churches. It cannot possibly be an error, with upper case E.

To say that many people in the Roman Church do not use the indult properly or do not show the reverence that those early monks and friars did, has validity. This raises the question of how to correct this. There are two choices, first to teach the reverence of the monks and friars to the faithful or second, revoke the indult. Our current Holy Father does not appear to be in any hurry to revoke the indult.

To suggest that there would be an internal war, if it were revoked, may be a little over the top too. There are always going to be lose canons. They come in left and right shades. The truth is that the average person in the pew, cleric and religious will do as told. We have a history of doing as we’re told. We don’t always like it and we often gripe and complain on our way to the shed to get the wood and back, but we do it. We have to give our people more credit than we’re giving them, remembering that the lose canons are not the norm and they cannot be avoided. They have existed since before Christ.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Now I’m “taking Christ” instead of “receiving Christ” - I learn so much about my relationship with the Lord everytime I log on, especially in the last week.:eek:
You are always receiving Christ, because he gives himself freely to you. We cannot “take” him. St. Paul mentions receiving Christ worthily during a time when the Eucharist was handed to people in their hands by the deacons. Yet, Paul used the word, “receive.” It is interesting to not that Christ said, “Take and eat.”

Whether we say “take” or “receive” both actions are happening simultaneously. Christ is freely offering himself as food and we are accepting him as such.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Whether we say “take” or “receive” both actions are happening simultaneously. Christ is freely offering himself as food and we are accepting him as such.
Thank you! That is a point I’ve tried to make several times, to little approbation. One receives Christ because the Eucharist is a gift, but one must make the conscious, voluntary action to take what is offered because Christ does not force himself upon anyone. The gift is given up and offered whether you choose to take it or leave it. Of course, one also “takes Communion” in the sense that the word commonly means “to receive into one’s body (as by swallowing, drinking, or inhaling).” I don’t know why this terminology presents a stumbling block for so many people, but it apparently does.
 
You are always receiving Christ, because he gives himself freely to you. We cannot “take” him. St. Paul mentions receiving Christ worthily during a time when the Eucharist was handed to people in their hands by the deacons. Yet, Paul used the word, “receive.” It is interesting to not that Christ said, “Take and eat.”
It’s possible. From Matthew 26:
{26:26} Cœnantibus autem eis, accepit Iesus panem, et benedixit, ac fregit, deditque discipulis suis, et ait: Accipite, et comedite: hoc est corpus meum.
{26:26} Now while they were eating the meal, Jesus took bread, and he blessed and broke and gave it to his disciples, and he said: “Take and eat. This is my body.”
{26:27} Et accipiens calicem gratias egit: et dedit illis, dicens: Bibite ex hoc omnes.
{26:27} And taking the chalice, he gave thanks. And he gave it to them, saying: “Drink from this, all of you.
Accipio, accipere, accepi, acceptus - to take, to receive, to accept
 
It’s possible. From Matthew 26:

Accipio, accipere, accepi, acceptus - to take, to receive, to accept
I’m wondering if the words taking and grabbing are not being used interchanegeably by some posters.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF
 
I’m wondering if the words taking and grabbing are not being used interchanegeably by some posters.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF
As you know, Brother, accipio is simply ad + capio, where the real verb means “to take in hand, take hold of, lay hold of, take, seize, grasp.” 🙂
 
Inculturization within the Church allows for liturgical dance to culture who traditionally have dancing as part of their worship practices. I’m not surprised if this is allowed to Africans and South Pacific Islanders. I’d have to ask about First Nations/Native Americans, I come across their Catechists during our quarterly training Institue.

It was still up to them to allow something or approve something. People can clamour for something but the say will come from the leadership. Divorce and remarriage has been popular the last 20-30 years, I don’t see the Church ever making a move on that one.
But this is different from saying one should not clamour at all. Better people clamour and be corrected then keep silent and leave the Faith. These become what I would call “teachable moments.” By excercising our voice as Faithful, we by default should be embracing the ultimate and final say of the hierarchy, who are our legitimate superiors “in all things canonical.” By excercising our voice, however, we excercise the priesthood of the Faithful, which embraces and enriches the seperate and sublime priesthood of the clergy. This is what we mean by being the Body of Christ.
 
Honestly, no. I read a few weeks ago a baby died during (or immediately after) an Orthodox baptism and the priest was going to be sued for involuntary manslaughter.

But when my priest had the homily and he explained the hows and whys of immersion, the message sounds pretty powerful. Not only was the baptism a symbolism of us dying and rising with Christ, but through immersion we have a closer feeling of what its like gasping for air and thus have a more authentic near-dying experience.

Besides, my baby was baptized in the hospital. All those things that were attached to him wouldn’t have allowed for immersion even if I wanted to. And his experience is as close to dying as immersion would give you. He was in the operating room 2 hours after baptism at 5 days old. He’s fine now, he turns 5 months old today.
I liked what our priest did. He decided to go for a pour/immersion effect by pouring water on my son’s forehead and over his face! My son was none too pleased. However, when my eldest was baptized he slept through the whole thing, even the pouring of the water on his head. I am not sure which was more amusing to observe…
 
As you know, Brother, accipio is simply ad + capio, where the real verb means “to take in hand, take hold of, lay hold of, take, seize, grasp.” 🙂
I understand the Latin. I am wondering of the use of the term in English. To take is not the same as to grab. Accipio is literally to receive into one’s hand.

Trust me, after six years of Latin in our formation, I can dream in Latin. LOL OK, not quite, more like having nightmares about those closes and the amount of reading that we had to do in Latin in order to learn to interpret, not just translate. Often, it is difficult to translate from Latin to English, since the two languages belong to different families. That’s probably why there was not the problem in the translation of the Pauline missal from Latin to Spanish, Italian, and other Romance languages. You can be very literal and still have a beautiful flow. From the Romance languages to English, if you’re not careful, your translation can suffer. It can be so literal that it’s clunky or it can be so florid, that it’s not exactly the same. This is not just a problem from Latin to English, but from the Romance to the Germanic languages and the other way around too. Try reading the works of John of the Cross in Spanish and then in English and you will soon find out how tedious translating them is. I mean tedious in the sence of having to be meticulous in the process.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
There are two choices, first to teach the reverence of the monks and friars to the faithful or second, revoke the indult. Our current Holy Father does not appear to be in any hurry to revoke the indult.
I’m sure you’re aware, JR, that the Polish have this tradition at Christmas where they exchange the opłatek (plural: opłatki). Until my father died last year, every year I participated in such an exchange with him, family, and friends. The opłatek is identical to the composition of the hosts used for communion. Best wishes are exchanged along with it and all that. It is a beautiful sign of communion (for the lack of a better word) amongst everyone present there as each one does a one-on-one with someone else. Everyone is given a piece of this opłatek and generally during the exchange you offer the other person the piece that you have and you break a piece of the other’s opłatek and, of course, consume it. The big difference here of course is that the host is unconsecrated but nevertheless it still has a lot of symbolism. (Not to worry, this is not a Satanic worship or a mockery of the faith.)

The point I’m trying to make is that somehow I see this same type of atmosphere, nice and reverent as it can be, prevailing today in church. Somehow, though, we have to raise the level of reverence if we accept the fact that we are now dealing with the Body and Blood of Christ instead of a “simple” opłatek.
 
I would really like to know how Traditionalists would react to this. I think its a wonderful practice that instills reverence for CITH. This is an age old practice in another part of the Church, I wonder how Latin Rite traditionalists would accept it? Would they accept receiving from a golden spoon at a TLM? I don’t know.
I have received the Eucharist on the tongue by intinction, where the priest, while I knelt, received the Host from the priest beside him, and dipped It in the Precious Blood and placed it on my tongue. I thought it was beautiful and I thought the symbolism elicited from the Blood on the Host was most edifying, and certainly a moment “where the Gospel was preached without words.”🙂
 
I understand the Latin. I am wondering of the use of the term in English. To take is not the same as to grab. Accipio is literally to receive into one’s hand.
I assume that some people pick a charged word to convey shades of meaning. “Grab” implies insolence and presumptuousness, so some who want to portray Communion in the hand as inherently insolent and presumptuous will often -]use/-] seize every opportunity to pick a “loaded” word of that sort. Likewise, I cannot tell you how many times I have read variants on the sentence, “Then a horde of EMHCs swarmed the sanctuary” or “Then a platoon of EMHCs stormed the sanctuary.”
 
I’m sure you’re aware, JR, that the Polish have this tradition at Christmas where they exchange the opłatek (plural: opłatki). Until my father died last year, every year I participated in such an exchange with him, family, and friends. The opłatek is identical to the composition of the hosts used for communion. Best wishes are exchanged along with it and all that. It is a beautiful sign of communion (for the lack of a better word) amongst everyone present there as each one does a one-on-one with someone else. Everyone is given a piece of this opłatek and generally during the exchange you offer the other person the piece that you have and you break a piece of the other’s opłatek and, of course, consume it. The big difference here of course is that the host is unconsecrated but nevertheless it still has a lot of symbolism. (Not to worry, this is not a Satanic worship or a mockery of the faith.)

The point I’m trying to make is that somehow I see this same type of atmosphere, nice and reverent as it can be, prevailing today in church. Somehow, though, we have to raise the level of reverence if we accept the fact that we are now dealing with the Body and Blood of Christ instead of a “simple” opłatek.
Thank you for sharing this. I know very little about Polish culture. This sounds like a beautiful custom and you’re use of communion is correct. That’s what the gesture seems to do.

I am a strong believer that tradition involves more than the EF and COTT. There is the whole Church and her entire spiritual tradition. We have lost many of them, not because we changed to mass in the vernacular. We have lost many of them because we have changed. As a society we no longer look to the past for our answers. When we do, we’re very selective as to where we look.

There are many spiritual traditions or as we call them in theology, schools of spirituality, in the Church. They have made great contributions to the liturgical life of the Church. We need to teach those schools of spirituallity. My community is not committed to parish ministry. We focus on preaching to Catholics in the hope of reconciling Catholics with the Church and each other and our other major focus is pro-life ministry. But I do volunteer at one of the parishes where I teach Spiritual Theology to the laity. I find that the people love it when they can see the spiritual theology and history behind things. It not only raises their awareness and understanding, but it actually affects how they worship. Many people have come back and said that they have made some self-corrections in their behavior and their attitudes at mass. One of things that I teach them, which they love, is how to pray through the mass as we do in the friary. This manner of praying through the mass is the same in the EF and OF. It has to do with interior disposition. Interior disposition does not change from one form to the other. It goes with you. We have done a very poor job at teaching interior disposition.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Often, it is difficult to translate from Latin to English, since the two languages belong to different families. That’s probably why there was not the problem in the translation of the Pauline missal from Latin to Spanish, Italian, and other Romance languages. You can be very literal and still have a beautiful flow.
I couldn’t agree with you more. And you can throw Polish into that mix as well.
 
While the Church is indeed one, each Rite has its own tradtions that have developed and shouldn’t these be practiced and preserved.
Of course. But we can’t call one practice bad in one Rite and good in another Rite. Some people say standing is unacceptable during Consecration, but almost all the Eastern Rites stand during Consecration. So we should be careful when we look at practices and judge it. Because we may be declaring something bad when the Church as a whole sees it as something good. There are no double standards. We can refuse another Rite’s tradition on the basis that its not our tradition, but not because its bad. Because the fact that the Church allowed for one Rite to do something means its good.
 
I assume that some people pick a charged word to convey shades of meaning. “Grab” implies insolence and presumptuousness, so some who want to portray Communion in the hand as inherently insolent and presumptuous will often -]use/-] seize every opportunity to pick a “loaded” word of that sort. Likewise, I cannot tell you how many times I have read variants on the sentence, “Then a horde of EMHCs swarmed the sanctuary” or “Then a platoon of EMHCs stormed the sanctuary.”
Now THAT’S a little over the top. :rotfl:

There is wonderful expression Spanish that cannot be literally translated into English.

“No seas exagerado.” Literally, it says, “Don’t be exagerated.” It goes beyond, “Don’t exagerate.” It’s more like saying, “You’re over the top.”

We have to be very careful not to be over the top. We can do people an injustice. The saints and the Church have really tried hard and continue to try to be balanced to do the best we can with our limitations, our prejudices, our resources, and understanding. We must give ourselves credit for being good people. In all of these discussion there is always one voice that tries to imply that we’re evil or that we have ulterior motives for everything. That’s not true of most Catholics. Most of us, clergy, religious and lay, are good people who don’t always get it right. We have not gotten it right for 2,000 years. We fix one thing and something else needs our attention. There never was a Catholic Utopia. That will come in heaven. In the meantime, we keep working on things. That’s how we achieve the heights of holiness, by working at being saints.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I’m a slow reader, so I gave up after about the first four pages. :o

It sounds to me like the dude who got excommunicated was making some good points, so I hope that doesn’t make me a heretic. 😛

What I think he missed is the whole value of tradition.

Where I think he had a point is whether priests’ hands are somehow more holy than hands of laity. Only in an external sense would such a thing be true; we know that being ordained a priest is not a predictor of internals – at least not as evidenced by lifestyle issues. But for tradition, the priest is the one with the robe; the priest is the one doing the transubstantiation; the priest can very well be the sole distributors – but not because they or their hands are more holy, more like they “get to wear the hat” because they’ve “committed themselves” to the Lord via ordination.
This is a most unfortunate misunderstanding of the nature of priesthood and even of Tradition itself. The priest does have “holier” hands than laity, because at ordination his hands were anointed and an indelible mark was placed on his soul seperating his presence from that of a laymen. This is why not just any person can consecrate the Host, no matter what his disposition. The holiest saint, if not a priest, cannot confect a valid sacrament no matter how great his intention. Contrarywise, the most wicked priest can confect a valid sacrament so long as his intent is that of the Church. The subjective “interior motive” is irrelevent. Likewise, it is not for us to judge what the Lord would think is unimportant, and to toss out statements like “I don’t think God cares about (fill in the blank)” is viewing Faith in the wrong sense. Externals are of value, and yes, it was and is the understanding of the Church that these do often betray the belief of the believer. This is why they are important. The patrimony of the Church exists for a reason, partially because it reflects the eternal nature of the Church, but also because they are by nature rooted in eternity itself. To assign Tradition utilitarian purpose is to lose Tradition entirely, and by holding to our strong traditions, we hold onto the very Breath of God, by making the intangible, tangible. This is what the Incarnation does for us.
 
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