Not just another CITH Thread...

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But this is different from saying one should not clamour at all. Better people clamour and be corrected then keep silent and leave the Faith. These become what I would call “teachable moments.” By excercising our voice as Faithful, we by default should be embracing the ultimate and final say of the hierarchy, who are our legitimate superiors “in all things canonical.” By excercising our voice, however, we excercise the priesthood of the Faithful, which embraces and enriches the seperate and sublime priesthood of the clergy. This is what we mean by being the Body of Christ.
You’re right. But sometimes I desire the obedience that someone like Bro. JR has. At least to the Church, I do not think I can be that submissive to my boss at my job 😃

Sometimes we have to know where our boundaries are. The Church really is set up in a way Heaven is. We must be submissive to the higher power. We can say God is correct all the time, but the Church on earth is led by men who make mistakes. Thats a true statement, but even if God is correct all the time, oftentimes we do not accept His will for us. God doesn’t want people to have sexual relations outside of marriage, yet many people willingly defy that, they make excuses why its okay. That is why its good practice to submit ourselves to the authority of the Church. By letting go of our personal desires and following the directions of the Church, we train ourselves to do the same to God Himself.
 
While the Church is indeed one, each Rite has its own tradtions that have developed and shouldn’t these be practiced and preserved.
Good gravy, yes! Not only do we have six rites, but we also have 22 Catholic Churches. There are rites and there are the Churches. The levels of tradition go beyond the rites. Among the Oriental Churches they share the five Eastern Rites, but you can see slight variations from one Church to another. It is this diversity that speaks to the world of our Catholicism or Universality.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I understand the Latin. I am wondering of the use of the term in English. To take is not the same as to grab. Accipio is literally to receive into one’s hand.

Trust me, after six years of Latin in our formation, I can dream in Latin. LOL OK, not quite, more like having nightmares about those closes and the amount of reading that we had to do in Latin in order to learn to interpret, not just translate. Often, it is difficult to translate from Latin to English, since the two languages belong to different families. That’s probably why there was not the problem in the translation of the Pauline missal from Latin to Spanish, Italian, and other Romance languages. You can be very literal and still have a beautiful flow. From the Romance languages to English, if you’re not careful, your translation can suffer. It can be so literal that it’s clunky or it can be so florid, that it’s not exactly the same. This is not just a problem from Latin to English, but from the Romance to the Germanic languages and the other way around too. Try reading the works of John of the Cross in Spanish and then in English and you will soon find out how tedious translating them is. I mean tedious in the sence of having to be meticulous in the process.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Amen!
 
You’re right. But sometimes I desire the obedience that someone like Bro. JR has. At least to the Church, I do not think I can be that submissive to my boss at my job 😃

Sometimes we have to know where our boundaries are. The Church really is set up in a way Heaven is. We must be submissive to the higher power. We can say God is correct all the time, but the Church on earth is led by men who make mistakes. Thats a true statement, but even if God is correct all the time, oftentimes we do not accept His will for us. God doesn’t want people to have sexual relations outside of marriage, yet many people willingly defy that, they make excuses why its okay. That is why its good practice to submit ourselves to the authority of the Church. By letting go of our personal desires and following the directions of the Church, we train ourselves to do the same to God Himself.
When there is great love, it is possible to obey even when one disagrees. What we must cultivate is love for the Church. Love is not always a good feeling. Love often means having to be frank with outselves too, not just with others. We often claim that we have the duty to be frank without bishops and popes. This true. But we must be frank with ourselves. I will never forget the spirituality of a Mother Teresa. She was far more demanding on herself, than she was on others. She demanded greater love and obedience from herself than she did from others. I’m not sure that all of us do that.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I’m sure you’re aware, JR, that the Polish have this tradition at Christmas where they exchange the opłatek (plural: opłatki). Until my father died last year, every year I participated in such an exchange with him, family, and friends. The opłatek is identical to the composition of the hosts used for communion. Best wishes are exchanged along with it and all that. It is a beautiful sign of communion (for the lack of a better word) amongst everyone present there as each one does a one-on-one with someone else. Everyone is given a piece of this opłatek and generally during the exchange you offer the other person the piece that you have and you break a piece of the other’s opłatek and, of course, consume it. The big difference here of course is that the host is unconsecrated but nevertheless it still has a lot of symbolism. (Not to worry, this is not a Satanic worship or a mockery of the faith.)

The point I’m trying to make is that somehow I see this same type of atmosphere, nice and reverent as it can be, prevailing today in church. Somehow, though, we have to raise the level of reverence if we accept the fact that we are now dealing with the Body and Blood of Christ instead of a “simple” opłatek.
Has a very agape sound to it! (Another tradition, by the way, I would like to see resurrected).
 
When there is great love, it is possible to obey even when one disagrees. What we must cultivate is love for the Church. Love is not always a good feeling. Love often means having to be frank with outselves too, not just with others. We often claim that we have the duty to be frank without bishops and popes. This true. But we must be frank with ourselves. I will never forget the spirituality of a Mother Teresa. She was far more demanding on herself, than she was on others. She demanded greater love and obedience from herself than she did from others. I’m not sure that all of us do that.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
We must always remember that when we disobey, we depart down a path which no longer has the guidance it had before. Sometimes this means we come back and appreciate the way we come from and stick to that. Other times we may depart and never find our way back. How we judge and pick our battles should be of utmost prudence, and we must always remember: “Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” (St. Matthew 28:20)
 
This is a most unfortunate misunderstanding of the nature of priesthood and even of Tradition itself. The priest does have “holier” hands than laity, because at ordination his hands were anointed and an indelible mark was placed on his soul seperating his presence from that of a laymen. This is why not just any person can consecrate the Host, no matter what his disposition. The holiest saint, if not a priest, cannot confect a valid sacrament no matter how great his intention. Contrarywise, the most wicked priest can confect a valid sacrament so long as his intent is that of the Church. The subjective “interior motive” is irrelevent.
You make a good point, and it seems to support what I (in words less elegant) was trying to say

My point is that Jesus consistently chose internals over externals in every situation where there was a choice between the two. So much so he refused to even ask his own people to follow traditions. Jesus was God as well as man. Therefore, I think we know that God cares more about internals. If we don’t, then please show me how I am wrong on this.

How is it that a wicked person who is ordained is more “holy” than a saint who is not? Do their hands literally become spiritually detached from them so that what their hands touch is graced by the touch? I’m asking here because I don’t know the ostensible reasoning here and you can probably say it better than me.
Likewise, it is not for us to judge what the Lord would think is unimportant, and to toss out statements like “I don’t think God cares about (fill in the blank)” is viewing Faith in the wrong sense.
Why is it wrong to discuss whether God Himself cares about which way we receive Him in Holy Communion? Wouldn’t God be the FIRST Person we should consider here? And if it isn’t important to Him, then maybe we should examine why it’s important to us.
Externals are of value, and yes, it was and is the understanding of the Church that these do often betray the belief of the believer. This is why they are important. The patrimony of the Church exists for a reason, partially because it reflects the eternal nature of the Church, but also because they are by nature rooted in eternity itself. To assign Tradition utilitarian purpose is to lose Tradition entirely, and by holding to our strong traditions, we hold onto the very Breath of God, by making the intangible, tangible. This is what the Incarnation does for us.
Sigh. I keep saying “externals have value.” I just don’t know how much God cares about how well we follow them. For example, we can have a beautifully choreographed TLM where everything is just so, and it is breathtaking to us. But what about God? Does God consider one Mass, or one form of receiving, greater than another? I think he was VERY clear that He considered internals of utmost importance, almost to the exclusion of externals. Can you show me a single example of where Christ spoke otherwise?

There are many things that have kept the institution of the Church alive through the centuries. Brave people have given their lives in scores to keep the Good News intact until we could get printing presses and start distributing the books to everyone. That said, the church is also a machine that functions in this physical world, and it has to make certain concessions. For example, how many Catholics killed in the name of God? Was that in line with Christ’s teachings? No. But it did keep the Good News alive. Gosh, even Peter lied about Christ and denied Him three times, and the church was BUILT on Peter – I think if Peter had told the truth in that situation there probably would have not been a church. Jesus could not have built his church on a foundation that would be destroyed at the same time as the physical body of Christ. So does that mean it was pleasing to God that Peter repeatedly denied God? You decide.

Alan
 
Why is it wrong to discuss whether God Himself cares about which way we receive Him in Holy Communion? Wouldn’t God be the FIRST Person we should consider here? And if it isn’t important to Him, then maybe we should examine why it’s important to us.

Sigh. I keep saying “externals have value.” I just don’t know how much God cares about how well we follow them. For example, we can have a beautifully choreographed TLM where everything is just so, and it is breathtaking to us. But what about God? Does God consider one Mass, or one form of receiving, greater than another? I think he was VERY clear that He considered internals of utmost importance, almost to the exclusion of externals. Can you show me a single example of where Christ spoke otherwise?

Alan
It is the consistent teaching of the Church that a priest, no matter his defect of character, always confects valid Sacraments when he intends to do what the Church does:

“(Priests)…validly perform and confer the Sacraments, provided they make use of the matter and form always observed in the Catholic Church according to the institution of Christ, and provided they intend to do what the Church does in their administration (p. 155).” -Catechism of the Council of Trent

The efficacy (that is to say, the actual quantity of grace) received at the hands of a wicked priest may however, be less than those received from a holy one, but no less valid. The hands of a priest, consecrated at Ordination, have an essential nature such that they will always perform holy Sacraments and indeed be holy when performing that work. The character of the priest is irrelevent because, when giving the Sacraments, he is Christ, an alter Christus, and Our Lord becomes the actual minister of the Sacrament, not the man performing it. The priest is merely the physical vehicle of Christ’s redemptive work. This is why the holiest saint, if not ordained, can never perform a valid sacrament, because he has not been transformed by grace and election into the alter Christus (another Christ) necessary to make this happen. It is a true, real, and permenant change of nature within a man, which no sin can take away.

I accept you acknowledge externals have value, but perhaps not in the same sense I value them. I believe the externals are true manifestations of the internals within, expressed by action without. Lex Orandi, lex credendi (the Law of Prayer is the law of belief) as people like to quote. I do not defend externals merely for their sake, but rather in their preservation as true and real signs of our inward belief. Christ was specific about private prayer: “But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.” (St. Matthew 6:6) Again, Our Lord’s intention here was to give instruction of how render prayer from a sincere heart, not merely in observation of formality. The form was an expression of the interior, as in His contrary example: “And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.” (St. Matthew 6:5) The hypocrite’s public prayer was a manifestation of their interior disposition, which exposed their hypocrisy by the very act of doing so. To view traditions as “keeping the institution of the Church together” I believe is to demote them to a very low utilitarian level, and I believe robs them of their actual signifigance in real time.

I addition, I feel that speculating what God “values as important,” aside from what we know in Divine Revelation and from the Church, is a difficult path to start treading down. If the Church tells us a certain form and manner of performance is necessary for the sake of the rite, then She has reasons and I think that to speculate God may perceive them as unimportant or of secondary importance is to suppose for ourselves a level of speculation I do not believe we enjoy. It is stated it is important, and that suffices for us, unless we discover or are told otherwise, in my humble view.

As a parting note, there is one notable example of where God emphasized the externals, where one form of worship was valued over another: The story of Cain and Abel (Genesis 4:1-8) and let not forget the most important external of all: the Eucharist. "…this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me. (1st St. Paul to the Corinthians 11:25).

Thuswise would I disagree that the Church is machine, and need ever change, for She is a True Body, and Her Living True Life.
 
EE,

Thank you for your considered response to my rants. For the most part, I like what you have to say.

Alan
 
**- Hee, hee, no ‘externals’ = no Mass.
  • Therefore, if there are ‘externals’, they should be as beautiful, pious, reverent and impressive as possible.**
Post-1940’s the Roman Catholic Church decided on iconoclasm. CITH is part of that false revolution. It has not revived our worship, if it needed such.

God may care more about your ‘internals’ (heh) as an individual, but as a congregant, server and a priest, is he going to be pleased that:
  • A language set aside for worship has been dumped and the local lingo, which has and can attract worldly and vulgar connotations, is used instead?;
-That beautiful and reverent prayers have been dropped?;
  • That beautiful, mysterious and ancient hymns have been dropped and drab, droning modern ones used instead?
  • That Mass can now be a cacaphony?
-That the boundaries, both physical and procedural, that separated the sacred space from the rest of the church, are removed. Unvested laywomen can enter there. What now is special about it?
  • That the priest now faces those he should be trying to save, instead of the Saviour?
  • That beautiful altars were destroyed at the command of those He thought his servants?
  • That the RC Church, receiving His Son in a most reverent way, decided, on top of all the other changes, to stop kneeling and let laywomen hand Him out instead?
Utter madness. Or stupidity. Or herd behaviour. I can’t figure it out.

Imagine the Devil sitting down to wreak havoc on the R. C. Church. Just mess it up, so the sheep now think they can receive Communion while contracepting and that Mass is a play they can adapt to suit their tastes, distracting the sinners from its central purpose. I doubt he could have done better.
 
If everyone in the Latin rite followed the norms obediently we wouldn’t have CITH while standing. Prior to the mid-seventies in the US you would have been refused.
 
Of course. But we can’t call one practice bad in one Rite and good in another Rite.
True. However, would a Latin at a Divine Liturgy put their hands out for Holy Communion, for example?
Some people say standing is unacceptable during Consecration, but almost all the Eastern Rites stand during Consecration.
But the Latin tradtion is to kneel, so at a Latin Rite liturgy, broken leg etc aside, people should kneel.

Not that size discredits a tradtion but I read somewhere that the Latin Rite makes up 98% or so of the Church.

Imagine everyone in a parish full of anglo/white people in the US or OZ kissing each other at the sign of peace instead of a smile or handshake.
So we should be careful when we look at practices and judge it. Because we may be declaring something bad when the Church as a whole sees it as something good. There are no double standards. We can refuse another Rite’s tradition on the basis that its not our tradition, but not because its bad. Because the fact that the Church allowed for one Rite to do something means its good.
Out of intrest, in which rite is COTH the official norm?
 
God may care more about your ‘internals’ (heh) as an individual, but as a congregant, server and a priest, is he going to be pleased that:
  • A language set aside for worship has been dumped and the local lingo, which has and can attract worldly and vulgar connotations, is used instead?;
The whole God prefers latin argument doesn’t hold water. I think it’s important* for the people*, but I doubt God cares. A reverent set-aside language is for the psychology of the people, not for God.
-That beautiful and reverent prayers have been dropped?;
Are you stating a theological point that God gives preference to eloquence? Well, then I’m in trouble…
  • That beautiful, mysterious and ancient hymns have been dropped and drab, droning modern ones used instead?
Once again, I doubt that God is pacing in heaven with His head in his hands saying, “When will those hymns praising me stop. The melodies are terrible”.
  • That Mass can now be a cacaphony?
Make a joyful noise to the Lord
-That the boundaries, both physical and procedural, that separated the sacred space from the rest of the church, are removed. Unvested laywomen can enter there. What now is special about it?
But Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, and gave up his spirit. 51 And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. 31 The earth quaked, rocks were split, 52
  • That the priest now faces those he should be trying to save, instead of the Saviour?
The Priest is facing the Lord on the altar in front of him. Where do you think the Lord is?
  • That beautiful altars were destroyed at the command of those He thought his servants?
Physical things come and go.
  • That the RC Church, receiving His Son in a most reverent way, decided, on top of all the other changes, to stop kneeling and let laywomen hand Him out instead?
I would have agreed with you if had said lay people (men and women). As it is, that’s just anti-woman.

As I’ve said in other posts, I agree that the effect of the last 40 years has been negative, and there need to be changes. But these changes are needed because of what they caused in the people, in terms of belief and practice. Don’t drag God into it by saying he’s displeased with one way or worship or another. Yoou have no way of knowing that. The effect, yes, but not whether we are using latin or not.
 
Imagine the Devil sitting down to wreak havoc on the R. C. Church. Just mess it up, so the sheep now think they can receive Communion while contracepting and that Mass is a play they can adapt to suit their tastes, distracting the sinners from its central purpose. I doubt he could have done better.
Sometimes I wonder if the devil didn’t give us the internet. “Let’s see, how can we wreak havoc on the church? I know, let’s give all the brothers and sisters who are charged with loving each other, a chance to express their love and concern for each other. Let’s give them a place where they can all talk about their faith, and let nature take its toll – because inevitably they will miss the whole point and start attacking each other about worldly things. Their house is divided; we win.”

And some people thought improved communications breeds unity? It is possible, I suspect. :confused:

BTW, Ockham, this thread is actually better than the previous threads, I think. Still pretty much a standoff, but with a more respectful tone than before. I voted to improve the thread rating. 😉
 
Sometimes I wonder if the devil didn’t give us the internet.
Alan, say this isn’t so. Didn’t the Holy Father recently tell us to make more use of the internet?

youtube.com/watch?v=NkbXNNGk6Jo

And now that we have a real English-speaking Cardinal (Arinze) in the Magisterium and other good and reputable sources of information, we are slowly clearing up a lot of misinformation, misunderstandings, and misguidance that was spread in the English-speaking world in the 60’s and 70’s. The devil has been set a serious setback, the way I see it.
 
If everyone in the Latin rite followed the norms obediently we wouldn’t have CITH while standing. Prior to the mid-seventies in the US you would have been refused.
Actually, if everyone in the Latin Rite follows the norms, they would be attending the OF Mass, receving Communion (in the US) standing (as per the GIRM) on the tongue.

Those are all the norms.
 
Alan, say this isn’t so. Didn’t the Holy Father recently tell us to make more use of the internet?

youtube.com/watch?v=NkbXNNGk6Jo

And now that we have a real English-speaking Cardinal (Arinze) in the Magisterium and other good and reputable sources of information, we are slowly clearing up a lot of misinformation, misunderstandings, and misguidance that was spread in the English-speaking world in the 60’s and 70’s. The devil has been set a serious setback, the way I see it.
Thank you for that link. OK, maybe it isn’t so. The military, working with academia, gave us the Internet. The devil just knows how to use it; or at least he has helpers who do. As you say, we can also use it for good. It may have been a particular example situation I had in mind when I wrote the initial rant. 😉

Alan
 
True. However, would a Latin at a Divine Liturgy put their hands out for Holy Communion, for example?
Sure, just prepare to be ignored 😃

Like I mentioned, they don’t do that because its not part of their tradition, not because its bad. The problem is a lot of Roman Catholics would say one practice is BAD even though it is practiced somewhere in the Church. We can dismiss something because it is not our tradition, not because its is bad. Because its not bad.
But the Latin tradtion is to kneel, so at a Latin Rite liturgy, broken leg etc aside, people should kneel.
There are provisions for when people may not kneel, depends on circumstances or directives from the Bishop of the diocese. We should be aware of that. The Bishops dictate the posture, not the laity. So we cannot say we want to do this because of reasons X, Y and Z while the Bishop says something else. The Bishop is the one with the authority, so what the Bishop says trumps whatever we want to do.
Not that size discredits a tradtion but I read somewhere that the Latin Rite makes up 98% or so of the Church.
Haven’t you heard? The Church is not a democracy. Doesn’t matter the numbers. If a parish with 20,000 people want to do something, and the Diocesan Bishop wants to do something else and it is within his authority to make such a decree, its the 20,000 people who are being disobedient and in danger of schism, not the Bishop.
Imagine everyone in a parish full of anglo/white people in the US or OZ kissing each other at the sign of peace instead of a smile or handshake.
So that is a bad thing? French people kissy-kissy all the time.
Out of intrest, in which rite is COTH the official norm?
I know the Chaldeans do it. Someone mentioned the Melkite or Maronite Church also preserving CITH from its earliest days, although I can’t confirm that.
 
The whole God prefers latin argument doesn’t hold water. I think it’s important* for the people*, but I doubt God cares. A reverent set-aside language is for the psychology of the people, not for God.

Are you stating a theological point that God gives preference to eloquence? Well, then I’m in trouble…

Once again, I doubt that God is pacing in heaven with His head in his hands saying, “When will those hymns praising me stop. The melodies are terrible”.

Make a joyful noise to the Lord

But Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, and gave up his spirit. 51 And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. 31 The earth quaked, rocks were split, 52

The Priest is facing the Lord on the altar in front of him. Where do you think the Lord is?

Physical things come and go.

I would have agreed with you if had said lay people (men and women). As it is, that’s just anti-woman.

As I’ve said in other posts, I agree that the effect of the last 40 years has been negative, and there need to be changes. But these changes are needed because of what they caused in the people, in terms of belief and practice. Don’t drag God into it by saying he’s displeased with one way or worship or another. Yoou have no way of knowing that. The effect, yes, but not whether we are using latin or not.
Hee hee, I dragged God into it because of the ‘Jesus cares more about your internals’ argument.

A propitatory sacrificial rite has been literally turned 'round and had mundane and populist elements inserted into it. Well, I say it’s well and truly been ‘brought to the people’, to the extent that laypeople are acting like priests and giving blessings at ‘The People’s Mass’. They distribute Communion. They read from the sanctuary in plain clothes.

I’m surprised that educated clerics don’t see how contradictory this is. I’d guess it’s because the R.C.Church is quite intellectualised. Religion is something you think, talk, and read about. Thus you can fiddle around with your central rite and justify swingeing changes based on tenuous precedent.

Then the faithful get into paganism and Charismatic orgia in an attempt to get some contact with the Divine. Or they just have a lie-in on Sunday. Casual, friendly, feminised Mass? Not something you need to get to wound up about.
 
Sometimes I wonder if the devil didn’t give us the internet. “Let’s see, how can we wreak havoc on the church? I know, let’s give all the brothers and sisters who are charged with loving each other, a chance to express their love and concern for each other. Let’s give them a place where they can all talk about their faith, and let nature take its toll – because inevitably they will miss the whole point and start attacking each other about worldly things. Their house is divided; we win.”
Bit of a non sequitur to what I said.

What the internet has done, for example, is to put online all the documents and Church history that were used to justify iconoclasm. Now ‘The Spirit Of Vatican II’ has been shown to be false. People can hear about this strange old rite called the TLM, then find out where they can attend one. This is accelerating a return to formal, reverent, theologically sound, by-the-book, impersonal worship.

Brick by brick.
 
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