Not the same God?

[ByzCathCantor]

Not at all.

… but I still love ya, brother! Hope you are well!

P.S. We’re almost @ 1,000!

 

[Mickey]

… but I still love ya, brother! Hope you are well!

P.S. We’re almost @ 1,000!

I think you are slowly being converted to the “conservative” side.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I think you are slowly being converted to the “conservative” side.

Well, I would say that we Eastern Catholics likely always have one foot on the Orthodox dock and the other in the Catholic boat, so to speak!

(and I’m pretty sure you’ll see the beauty of that analogy)

 

[Mickey]

Well, I would say that we Eastern Catholics likely always have one foot on the Orthodox dock and the other in the Catholic boat, so to speak!

(and I’m pretty sure you’ll see the beauty of that analogy)

Yes…I was a dock/boat balancer at one time.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Mickey;8938976]Yes.

Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:56

Your ignorance to the discussion is very telling Mickey. Jesus was not born yet during Abrahams time, The Incarnation was not revealed to Abraham yet, this Incarnation was the revelations foreshadowed not revealed when Abraham saw it. No one argues Abrahams faith. We are discussing Muslims faith professed in Abrahams God.

You have failed to prove that the Muslims faith in Abrahams God is not the creator, because this is what Muslims profess in one God creator.

Because you haven’t proven this, you make the false claim that Catholics proclaim Islam’s god the same God. when the CCC never makes any such claims as you falsified here, only the Muslims professed faith in Abrahams faith in one God creator, the CCC does not go any further than this. So please stop making the false claims.

We are discussing the Muslims “Profess” faith in Abrahams God. Where Islam takes off from here in revealing morality of God has nothing to do with the CCC teaches of Abrahams faith in God. You falsify what is revealed to what appear present day prejudices between Muslims denying the blessed Trinity, and Christians not holding to Islams god of morality.

These prejudices are not being discussed, yet you have continued to mix these anti-sentiments between the two religions.

But since they deny Christ…they are not worshipping the God of Abraham.

Muslims have not gotten the revelation of Christ yet. Only the revelation of God of Abraham from its infant stage as the creator.

You are arguing they deny the divinity of Christ and do not worship God in the blessed Trinity, this is not the topic of differences because differences are apparent from this perspective.

Muslims claim to worship of the one God creator, the same as Abraham. Abraham did not worship the incarnat Jesus Christ, because Jesus was not born yet in Abrahams time.

We cant’ attach the mystism of Abrahams seeing the day of Christ in his time to Muslims faith because they have not the Holy Spirit who reveals this.

But you argue because Muslims don’t have the Holy Spirit which reveals Abrahams God in Jesus Christ incarnate, they don’t worship the one God creator revealed in Abrahams faith.

When John the baptist disciples met up with the apostles recorded in Acts. The apostle asked them have you recieved the holy Spirit? John the baptist disciples replied “we have never heard of the Holy Spirit”?

Muslims profess to be in this same predicament as the Sons of Abraham revealed in the disciples of John of the baptist. They heard of Jesus but did not know Jesus.

B]Sura 4:171

(Koran)– Allah forbid that he should have a son![/FONT
[/QUOTE]]

This is revealed from one of Islam’s characteristic view of god, not the professed faith by Muslims in Abrahams faith of God. You are comparing apples to oranges again, when you move from the Islams characteristics and morality of God, these do not have the same qualities as Jesus revealed of the Father. Partly because Muslims profess Abrahams God from its infant stage.

This discussion has not arrived to the differences of revelations, which you are arguing from. We all know this already, and so do the Muslims.

B]1 John 2:23

(Douay-Rheims)–Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.
It is the question you need to ask…because Christ is God.

We are discussing the revelation of God the creator from Abrahams faith, which the Muslims profess. Could you ask this same question to Abraham, when the Son was not born yet? The incaranation was not revealed to Abraham, he only saw it from afar.

Once we get pass the faith in Abrahams God,which Muslims profess, then we can move on and reveal to the Muslims how the God of Abraham becomes flesh in the Son in the fullness of time.

Raising the differences between Christians revelations of God through the Son, and Islam’s moral characteristics believed of god is already known and differences revealed, When you repeat what is already known in differences does not clarify anything about the Muslim professed faith in Abrahams faith in one God creator.

 

[illusion_buster]

So you believe that a couple that’s living together and says in their heart that they’re married need not actually get married?

I truelly don’t know the Truth there…I know what the cc says. But I believe a marriage is made with the heart before God and not with a piece of paper. In in ‘old days’ when there was no priest, couples could make their vows to each other. In Past centuries formal marriage became more a swap of property and monies. Where was the validity in that? (all nice and proper in a church with a priest). I would always want a church wedding myself but I truelly don’t know the TRUTH of it.

 

[Simka]

We are discussing Muslims faith professed in Abrahams God.

You have failed to prove that the Muslims faith in Abrahams God is not the creator, because this is what Muslims profess in one God creator. .

The problem is that people do not all mean the same thing when they say they believe in “the God of Abraham”. We all acknowledge that the “God of Abraham” is the one True God, the Creator, but if the words “God of Abraham” mean something different to some people than they do to us (Christians), then we ought to ascertain what they DO mean!

The well-established fact is that, by their own declarations, they worship a RE-WORKED, REVAMPED REVISION of the Biblical “God of Abraham.” The revelation of God through Jesus had been known for 600 years by the time Mohammad introduced his NON-BIBLICAL UPDATE of the God of Abraham. Mohammad knew of that revelation. It was not ‘unrevealed’ to him. But what Muslims say is, “We reject Jesus’ version of the God of Abraham. His version is UNTRUE. We have our own, updated revision. This later REVISION is the God we worship.”

So what the Muslims worship is not the TRUE revelation of God, but one that Mohammad introduced as a replacement for the Christian God.

As Christians we accept Jesus’ revelation of God, and His claim that “I and the Father are One. If you have seen me you have seen the Father.” This is part of the gospel message … the message that had been known for 600 years by the time Mohammad decided it was time for a change.

Mohammad claimed that he received his REVISED VERSION of God, this rejection of Jesus’ version, by direct revelation from the angel, Gabriel. Yet Paul told us “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”

So I suggest to you that it was not Gabriel that delivered to Mohammad the message of revision. There was, rather, a force working contrary to the will and purpose of God. What Mohammad and his followers have chosen to worship is no god at all, but an UNTRUE reworking. That is a false god. The fact that they use the same names for their object of worship as we use for God, does not mean they worship the same God.

 

[rinnie]

That’s a very big “If”, rinnie. IF you believe in the One True God … good on you.

BUT: what if you’re only SAYING that’s what you believe, when in fact the evidence points to your actually believing in someone or something quite different? In these circumstances, what would the real truth be?

Are you kiddimg me here. I never said I believe. I said the Church teaches. There is quite a difference here.

IF it was what I believe to be true, I would have no merit here. I do not have the authority to speak for the CC, but the Pope does.

And he did not say IF he said the plan of Salvation ALSO includes those who acknowledge the Creator in the first place amongst WHOM ARE THE MUSLIMS.

Where in the world did you get IF the Muslims include the Creator. Please read the CCC 841 for yourself.

So can you explain to me where the Pope said IF THEY Profess to hold the faith of Abraham, it states THESE PROFESS TO HOLD the faith of Abraham. Now if he does not teach they do, how can we TOGETHER adore the one merciful God.

 

[rinnie]

The problem is that people do not all mean the same thing when they say they believe in “the God of Abraham”. We all acknowledge that the “God of Abraham” is the one True God, the Creator, but if the words “God of Abraham” mean something different to some people than they do to us (Christians), then we ought to ascertain what they DO mean!

The well-established fact is that, by their own declarations, they worship a RE-WORKED, REVAMPED REVISION of the Biblical “God of Abraham.” The revelation of God through Jesus had been known for 600 years by the time Mohammad introduced his NON-BIBLICAL UPDATE of the God of Abraham. Mohammad knew of that revelation. It was not ‘unrevealed’ to him. But what Muslims say is, “We reject Jesus’ version of the God of Abraham. His version is UNTRUE. We have our own, updated revision. This later REVISION is the God we worship.”

So what the Muslims worship is not the TRUE revelation of God, but one that Mohammad introduced as a replacement for the Christian God.

As Christians we accept Jesus’ revelation of God, and His claim that “I and the Father are One. If you have seen me you have seen the Father.” This is part of the gospel message … the message that had been known for 600 years by the time Mohammad decided it was time for a change.

Mohammad claimed that he received his REVISED VERSION of God, this rejection of Jesus’ version, by direct revelation from the angel, Gabriel. Yet Paul told us “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”

So I suggest to you that it was not Gabriel that delivered to Mohammad the message of revision. There was, rather, a force working contrary to the will and purpose of God. What Mohammad and his followers have chosen to worship is no god at all, but an UNTRUE reworking. That is a false god. The fact that they use the same names for their object of worship as we use for God, does not mean they worship the same God.

What in the world does a false revelation and what Mohammad claimed have to do with the Muslims adoring the One Merciful God?

You continue to make this statement. So what you are saying because he claimed he had a revelation from the One true God, the one true God the God of Abraham must be false.

What you are saying is in also in direct conflict with the true word of God.

Matt 7:13 Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheeps clothing but underneath are revenous woulves. By their works you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thronbushes or figs ffor thistles.;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

Not everyone who say to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to ME on that day LORD LORD did we not prophesy IN YOUR NAME.

Please show me where our Lord said, any false prophet who speaks in my name, makes me a false LORD. Because you continue to say this time after time.

You continue to say that if they have the ONE TRUE GOD, this cannot happen. If this cannot happen and a false prophet CANNOT prophesy in the name of the Lord, even drive out demons in his name and even do mighty deeds why did God say they would. Where did he ever say the evildoers CANNOT speak in his name, nor will?

Christ said they CAN. He said that many will even perform works of healing and exorcisims in the name of Jesus (LORD) but live evil lives.

Does this make our Lord false?

 

[Simka]

… he did not say IF he said the plan of Salvation ALSO includes those who acknowledge the Creator … Where in the world did you get IF

Well, I was responding to Post #936, quoting the words exactly: “If you believe in the One true God …”

Oh, look!! That was your post, rinnie.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The problem is that people do not all mean the same thing when they say they believe in “the God of Abraham”. We all acknowledge that the “God of Abraham” is the one True God, the Creator, but if the words “God of Abraham” mean something different to some people than they do to us (Christians), then we ought to ascertain what they DO mean!

The well-established fact is that, by their own declarations, they worship a RE-WORKED, REVAMPED REVISION of the Biblical “God of Abraham.” The revelation of God through Jesus had been known for 600 years by the time Mohammad introduced his NON-BIBLICAL UPDATE of the God of Abraham. Mohammad knew of that revelation. It was not ‘unrevealed’ to him. But what Muslims say is, “We reject Jesus’ version of the God of Abraham. His version is UNTRUE. We have our own, updated revision. This later REVISION is the God we worship.”

So what the Muslims worship is not the TRUE revelation of God, but one that Mohammad introduced as a replacement for the Christian God.

As Christians we accept Jesus’ revelation of God, and His claim that “I and the Father are One. If you have seen me you have seen the Father.” This is part of the gospel message … the message that had been known for 600 years by the time Mohammad decided it was time for a change.

Mohammad claimed that he received his REVISED VERSION of God, this rejection of Jesus’ version, by direct revelation from the angel, Gabriel. Yet Paul told us “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”

So I suggest to you that it was not Gabriel that delivered to Mohammad the message of revision. There was, rather, a force working contrary to the will and purpose of God. What Mohammad and his followers have chosen to worship is no god at all, but an UNTRUE reworking. That is a false god. The fact that they use the same names for their object of worship as we use for God, does not mean they worship the same God.

Apples and Oranges which basically no one really is concerned with. Read the Catholic Encyclopedia as I mentioned above. Islam is not a mystery to the Catholic Church, never has been.

Sounds great however, there are 1-Billion muslims whom you have to convince of this. None here at the moment.

They profess whatever they profess and we say AMEN. Thats how the CCC works.

Rest is a moot ignorant arguement putting it politely. Your preaching to the Choir with all this. All that you can save for your next Islamic Close Encounter of the Third Kind

Why in the world would any of us being Catholic/Christian propose and promote an Islamic side of the debate Or help them with their inferior idea of History and corrupt political/social hell they created?

We defend the Catholic Church here:thumbsup: Catholic Encyclopedia “great reading” as mentioned above. Did you read that sight?

Point being whatever they believe…Still One God. Who they worship? Do not know, I don’t worship with them, no desire or need. I pray for the Converstion of Sinners daily. However we cannot state for fact that all muslims pray to satan, all are evil people, its just not reality. Many live completely moral ethical lives, pray 5X daily etc. They have an imperfect understanding of God which they arrived at through a War General.

They state Adam first prophet…Mohammed last prophet. Then have a mismash of actual verse’s in the Quran. Do you want to read those verse’s? Is that the interest? I have them here on file. I find that utterly boring though. I don’t enjoy fiction or heresy.

Peace

 

[rinnie]

I truelly don’t know the Truth there…I know what the cc says. But I believe a marriage is made with the heart before God and not with a piece of paper. In in ‘old days’ when there was no priest, couples could make their vows to each other. In Past centuries formal marriage became more a swap of property and monies. Where was the validity in that? (all nice and proper in a church with a priest). I would always want a church wedding myself but I truelly don’t know the TRUTH of it.

Well see Jesus came a set us pretty straight on that. So what Jesus said is not what the CC says, it is what Christ taught.

He said that Marriage is a Sacrament. An OUTWARD SIGN instituted by Christ to give grace. Christ said whoever has sex outside of marriage are living in a state of sin.

The Church does not teach that it is just a piece of paper, it is a oath taken by two people. That is quite a big difference don’t you think.

The reason for a Church wedding is to stand BEFORE GOD and make a true vow of the Love they profess for oneanother and to promise GOD and One another to honor it until death do they part. It is the CHRUCH WEDDING that makes the marriage a true Sacrament, and it must be done by one with authority who has the Sacrament of Holy Orders to make it a valid Sacrament in the Church.

 

[rinnie]

But the point of the matter is this. I don’t care what false teaching you have.

If you believe in the One true God and you believe that green is yellow. That still does not take away you believe in the One True God.

Just as my friend does not believe in the fullness of the truth revealed in the Church. She prays to Jesus Christ the true Son of GOd.

You cannot acuse the Muslims as having a false god because they are msled by a false prophet.

As I said numerous times a thousand lies still cannot take away ONE TRUTH.

Yes and I agree with everything I just said. But what does this have to do with me saying I BELIEVE that Muslims adore the one True God so it has to be the Truth?

OF course I BELIEVE that, simply because that is the truth that is revealed in my Church. But I never said its what I believe that has merit. I said it is what the Church teaches that holds the merit.

But again where did I ever said just because I believe it, it has to be true. I said the Church has authority to teach and the Church teaches truth.

 

[Simka]

What in the world does a false revelation and what Mohammad claimed have to do with the Muslims adoring the One Merciful God?

You continue to make this statement. So what you are saying because he claimed he had a revelation from the One true God, the one true God the God of Abraham must be false.

No, what I am saying is that whoever actually gave Mohammad his false revelation is false. And if Mohammad’s revelation is false, then the god that he subsequently defined by his false revelation is equally false. This is not the One True God, but MOHAMMAD’S RE-DEFINITION of God … Mohammad’s god … whom Muslims mistakenly identify as the One True God.

According to their own teaching, Muslims worship the god that was REVEALED TO MOHAMMAD. Mohammad’s revelation and his teaching define precisely what Muslims actually worship. If Mohammad did not receive a revelation of the One True God, then what Muslims are worshipping is not actually the one True God. They worship MOHAMMAD’S REVELATION … whoever or whatever that may be.

 

[Mickey]

Your ignorance to the discussion is very telling Mickey.

Please do not resort to name calling. I have not called you ignorant.

Jesus was not born yet during Abrahams time,

Christ is throughout the Old Testament.

We are discussing Muslims faith professed in Abrahams God.

Abraham’s God is the Triune God…the Muslims do not acknowledge that.

You have failed to prove that the Muslims faith in Abrahams God is not the creator

I think I have proved it quite nicely.

We are discussing the Muslims “Profess” faith in Abrahams God.

Exactly!!! They profess that their God is not Triune…therefore they are not worshipping the God of Abraham.

You falsify what is revealed to what appear present day prejudices between Muslims denying the blessed Trinity,

It is not a prejudice…they truly do not believe in the Triune God…ask them.

Muslims have not gotten the revelation of Christ yet.

The Muslims know who Christ is…and they know what the Christian faith professes…they reject it.

You are arguing they deny the divinity of Christ and do not worship God in the blessed Trinity, this is not the topic of differences

It surely is the heart of the matter.

Abraham did not worship the incarnat Jesus Christ, because Jesus was not born yet in Abrahams time.

Abraham knew Christ at Mamre.

We cant’ attach the mystism of Abrahams seeing the day of Christ in his time to Muslims faith because they have not the Holy Spirit who reveals this.

Again…Muslims know about Christ…they reject Him.

But you argue because Muslims don’t have the Holy Spirit which reveals Abrahams God in Jesus Christ incarnate, they don’t worship the one God creator revealed in Abrahams faith.

I argue that since they reject the Triune God…it is not possible that they worship the God of Abraham.

Muslims profess to be in this same predicament as the Sons of Abraham revealed in the disciples of John of the baptist. They heard of Jesus but did not know Jesus.

The Muslims heard of Jesus…and reject Him.

You are comparing apples to oranges again,

No I’m not.

Partly because Muslims profess Abrahams God from its infant stage.

Abraham’s God from its infant stage? Never heard that one before. Nevertheless, Abraham’s God is always and ever shall be the Triune God.

We are discussing the revelation of God the creator from Abrahams faith, which the Muslims profess.

Christ is the Creator…and the Muslims reject Him.

Could you ask this same question to Abraham, when the Son was not born yet?

Abraham served Jesus Christ at Mamre.

Once we get pass the faith in Abrahams God,which Muslims profess

No they don’t… they reject the Triune God.

 

[Mickey]

The well-established fact is that, by their own declarations, they worship a RE-WORKED, REVAMPED REVISION of the Biblical “God of Abraham.” The revelation of God through Jesus had been known for 600 years by the time Mohammad introduced his NON-BIBLICAL UPDATE of the God of Abraham. Mohammad knew of that revelation. It was not ‘unrevealed’ to him. But what Muslims say is, “We reject Jesus’ version of the God of Abraham. His version is UNTRUE. We have our own, updated revision. This later REVISION is the God we worship.”

So what the Muslims worship is not the TRUE revelation of God, but one that Mohammad introduced as a replacement for the Christian God.

As Christians we accept Jesus’ revelation of God, and His claim that “I and the Father are One. If you have seen me you have seen the Father.” This is part of the gospel message … the message that had been known for 600 years by the time Mohammad decided it was time for a change.

Mohammad claimed that he received his REVISED VERSION of God, this rejection of Jesus’ version, by direct revelation from the angel, Gabriel. Yet Paul told us “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”

So I suggest to you that it was not Gabriel that delivered to Mohammad the message of revision. There was, rather, a force working contrary to the will and purpose of God. What Mohammad and his followers have chosen to worship is no god at all, but an UNTRUE reworking. That is a false god. The fact that they use the same names for their object of worship as we use for God, does not mean they worship the same God.

Great post!

 

[Mickey]

No, what I am saying is that whoever actually gave Mohammad his false revelation is false. And if Mohammad’s revelation is false, then the god that he subsequently defined by his false revelation is equally false. This is not the One True God, but MOHAMMAD’S RE-DEFINITION of God … Mohammad’s god … whom Muslims mistakenly identify as the One True God.

According to their own teaching, Muslims worship the god that was REVEALED TO MOHAMMAD. Mohammad’s revelation and his teaching define precisely what Muslims actually worship. If Mohammad did not receive a revelation of the One True God, then what Muslims are worshipping is not actually the one True God. They worship MOHAMMAD’S REVELATION … whoever or whatever that may be.

Another great post! I hope you don’t mind if I save this one in my files.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Another great post! I hope you don’t mind if I save this one in my files.

Good morning Mickey!

Simka does present some compelling arguments in these posts. For my part, I agree with everything he has stated. The tenets of belief do, or course, include revisions, alterations and yes rejections of Truths already revealed.

I first pray that they may seek the Truth. This will only happen if they are exposed to the Truth. The system seems stacked against them in that there are matters of discipline connected with their system of belief that prevent them for being exposed to the Truth.

Yet, we hold out hope, not with blind tolerance, but with the patience, love and understanding with which our Lord awaits their souls. FWIW - I do believe that is the Catholic position on the matter. Not that its OK to be wrong, but that in order to find the door from within a dark room, it helps when someone reaches in and turns on the light!

 

[Simka]

Yet, we hold out hope, not with blind tolerance, but with the patience, love and understanding with which our Lord awaits their souls.

Despite whatever internal squabbles we may engage in, let us never forget that the Church exists for those who are not yet its members. God has not given up on them; the Holy Spirit is still as active as ever, drawing all people to Christ. If we are not disciples making disciples, we are not serving our Lord according to the commission He left us.

 

[Mickey]

Good morning Mickey!

Good morning BCC.

I first pray that they may seek the Truth.

Amen.

This will only happen if they are exposed to the Truth. The system seems stacked against them in that there are matters of discipline connected with their system of belief that prevent them for being exposed to the Truth.

I know that there are some remote areas where aboriginal-like tribes live in seclusion with very little contact to the outside world. These peoples have not been exposed to the Truth (Jesus Christ).

I also know that some Muslim extremist countries’ Sharia law governments will kill an individual if they are caught with a Bible…reading Christian resources…attempting to attend Christian assemblies…etc. However I would not say that they have not been “exposed to the Truth.”

Yet, we hold out hope, not with blind tolerance, but with the patience, love and understanding with which our Lord awaits their souls.

Amen. Hope is good thing. I also pray for the conversion of their souls.

but that in order to find the door from within a dark room, it helps when someone reaches in and turns on the light!

Keep praying for them. Christ is the Door. Christ is the light. And He will illuminate the dark room with peace and love and mercy.