Not the same God?

[Gabriel_of_12]

Amen. And until then, they are not worshipping the same God as the Christians…because they reject the Triune God.

Hi Mickey; My God whom I adore with Abrahams faith which Muslims profess faith in the same God of Abraham ends when the CCC begins and end with Abrahams professed faith from Muslims.

I will state that the morality of the god of the Muslims is the not the same morality of the God of Christians.

1. Muslims believe their deity hates sinners and only loves those believers who obey their deity.
2. Christians believe God loves sinners, that is why God sent his Son Jesus John 3:16
3. Muslims believe their deity allows deception and lying as a good virtues practice, especially when used against their enemies.
4. Christians believe God does not deceive nor can God be deceived, for Commands “thou shalt not bear false witness”
5. Muslims believe their deity teaches to hate your enemy.
6. Christians believe God teaches Christians to love our enemy.

Please understand Mickey, these are Muslims false moralities of their deity. It is hard to take away their professed faith in Abrahams God. Until it is proven to them that their deity is not the same God of Abrahams that reveals himself incarnate.

You make the accusation correctly that Muslims do not worship the same Christian God in the blessed Trinity. No one argues that, nor do Muslims.

Can you prove the deity that Muslims worship is the not the God of Abraham?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

At the risk of putting us on a slight tangent (although it seems quite relevant in light of the views expressed here throughout), does anyone ever wonder why scholars often refer to Judeo-Christian tradition as opposed to a broader, more inclusive Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition?

Because Judeo-Christian traditions are divinely revealed;

Islam dug up a bone from antiquity (Abraham) and claimed it as theirs.

 

[rinnie]

Nope! Radical oversimplification, and the underlying source of your confusion.

Despite their claims to the contrary, they do NOT worship the one whom Christians have come to recognize as the God of Noah, Abraham, et al. As Muslims define him, and according to the identifying characteristics they attribute to him, the object of their worship is not – cannot be – the same as our God.

We cannot both be right. Either they, or we, worship a deceiving impersonator.

Oh so can you be more clear on these identifying characteristics you claim.

The only ones I have ever seen is they worship the God of Abraham. How else to they explain the God of Abraham, besides saying they believe he is the One True God the creator of heaven and earth?

And by the way so if they say we don’t have the One true God then we have to go by that right? If they cannot understand that we do have the One true God, and we cannot agree with them on this we are wrong then? Is that what you are saying, Or else they are right,

Or to be more clear if we can See the One true God in the true revelation that was given to us by Christ, and they can’t. Then we cannot have the same God, because we see him in a different light? Simply because they said so!

 

[Simka]

You have lost me here, so are you trying to say that Mohammad did not worship the God of Abraham, so by that he made the God of Abraham the Muslims worship false?

Not exactly … rather that (1) he created in his own imagination, or (2) he was deceived by an outside force into believing in …

an alternate entity, which he then identified as an updated version of the God of Abraham but which in reality was not … is not … the God of Abraham, but a carefully crafted, misleading imitation.

 

[Contarini]

If that’s the impression I created, I should help you better understand that meeting.

It was many years ago, in a time and place where – unlike today – acknowledging your Christian faith didn’t automatically schedule your execution. There were six of us Christians sticking together in a meeting room otherwise occupied by about 200 Muslims.

I forget now what I heard that prompted me to speak up, but I said that, as I understand Him, God loves everyone of every religion, every faith, every belief system; that He wants to have a personal, one-on-one relationship with each and every one of us; that His greatest desire is for us to love Him as He loves us, and He longs for so much more than just a ‘Master-Slave’ relationship.

Their response (“That’s your God, not ours. We worship our God, not yours.”) was a declaration to me that they saw the two as very different. I had inadvertently hit upon one of those “mutually exclusive” characteristics I have since alluded to here.

It was not said to me with malice, and I was not upset, or fearful. It would be some while before my life was threatened, and I had to leave.

Making reference in this forum to this aspect of Muslim teaching and being asked to “Prove it” is difficult, if not impossible. I wasn’t taping the event. But the implication was plain. And the recent history of Christian persecution seems to me adequate confirmation.

Simka,

I’m not disputing that that’s what these Muslims told you. I’m disputing that this is the mainstream view of Muslim scholars/theologians.

The conversation in which I was told the opposite, for instance, was a conversation with the leaders of one of the mosques in Fort Wayne (one of whom, the mosque “president,” made the statement in question), plus the guest preacher for that Friday, a Kenyan who had studied at Al Azhar in Cairo. Al Azhar is about as mainstream as you get in the Sunni world.

As I have now said several times, if you look at the most common Islamic polemic against Christians, it takes the form of saying that Christians “associate partners with God.” The assumption here is that our “God the Father” is the true God, but that we commit idolatry by “associating” with Him the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Edwin

 

[rinnie]

Not exactly … rather that (1) he created in his own imagination, or (2) he was deceived by an outside force into believing in …

an alternate entity, which he then identified as an updated version of the God of Abraham but which in reality was not … is not … the God of Abraham, but a carefully crafted, misleading imitation.

But what in the world does whe he created, have to do with the One True God the God of Abraham.

So then if we go with what you are saying, I turn around today and say I believe in the Trinity, The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. That is the teaching of the Gospel.

But then turn around say, I had the truth revealed to me by Jesus Christ, I have a new gospel. Every single person who follows my false teaching, but who continue to pray and worship the One True God in the Trinity, now pray and worship a false god.

Simply because I made him false now, simply by revealing to them my own false revelation?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

As I have now said several times, if you look at the most common Islamic polemic against Christians, it takes the form of saying that Christians “associate partners with God.” The assumption here is that our “God the Father” is the true God, but that we commit idolatry by “associating” with Him the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps more simply put, does that mean that they hold belief in the Triune God is idolatric? Surely they have some reason to further discount the divine nature of Christ given how He was fit into their belief system.

I would also note (which really hasn’t come up here yet, unless I missed it) that the Holy Spirit was not unknown in Judaic tradition. There are Scriptural references in the Old Testament and right up and through the witness of St. John the Baptist.

Does Islam also reject the concept of the Holy Spirit (I’m really not sure)?

 

[Simka]

Oh so can you be more clear on these identifying characteristics you claim.

I highlighted a few back in Post #838, and there are more from ‘Gabriel of 12’ in #913

 

[rinnie]

I highlighted a few back in Post #838, and there are more from ‘Gabriel of 12’ in #913

So anotherwards because they teach a different God then we do, then we cannot possibly both have the One True God.

So then when my best friends tells me there is no way that a Priest can give me forgiveness from my sins in the Sacrament of Confession, we cannot possibly have the same God either.

Because after all if we both beleive that the other is wrong, then the teachings make the God wrong also, Correct?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Perhaps more simply put, does that mean that they hold belief in the Triune God is idolatric? Surely they have some reason to further discount the divine nature of Christ given how He was fit into their belief system.

I would also note (which really hasn’t come up here yet, unless I missed it) that the Holy Spirit was not unknown in Judaic tradition. There are Scriptural references in the Old Testament and right up and through the witness of St. John the Baptist.

Does Islam also reject the concept of the Holy Spirit (I’m really not sure)?

I posted earlier that Islam does not have the Holy Spirit. Islam believes that the advocate, paraclete that He was sent in the person of Muhammed.

Funny how Islam rejects the New Testament, but lays claim to Jesus sending them Muhammed. They falsely misinterpret the Greek translation when Jesus is referencing sending the Holy Spirit in reference to a “person” thus they get Muhammed. When they neglect the fact that the Holy Spirit is a person of the God head revealed in the blessed Trinity.

True the Holy Spirit is revealed in the Old Testament, but it is Jesus who dies and resurrects so that the Holy Spirit is with us always. The Old Testament did not have the Holy Spirit, does not mean that the Holy Spirit did not exist or is not foreshadowed from the Old Covenant.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I posted earlier that Islam does not have the Holy Spirit. Islam believes that the advocate, paraclete that He was revealed in the person of Muhammed.

Funny how Islam rejects the New Testament, but lays claim to Jesus sending them Muhammed. They falsely misinterpret the Greek translation when Jesus is referencing sending the Holy Spirit in reference to a “person” thus they get Muhammed. When they neglect the fact that the Holy Spirit is a person of the God head revealed in the blessed Trinity.

True the Holy Spirit is revealed in the Old Testament, but it is Jesus who dies and resurrects so that the Holy Spirit is with us always. The Old Testament did not have the Holy Spirit, does not mean that the Holy Spirit did not exist or is not foreshadowed from the Old Covenant.

 

[Portrait]

At the risk of putting us on a slight tangent (although it seems quite relevant in light of the views expressed here throughout), does anyone ever wonder why scholars often refer to Judeo-Christian tradition as opposed to a broader, more inclusive Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition?

Dear ByzCathCantor,

Hello again.

There exists a very unique connection between Christianity and Judaism, the latter being the preparatory religion from which Christianity emerged. Essentially Judaism and Christianity are one religion, not two distinct faiths, and so it is quite correct to speak of the ‘Judeo-Christian tradition’.

The old economy of the Jews always pointed forward to Christianity and the coming Messiah, Jesus Christ our Saviour (cf. Heb. 1: 1,2). Christ Himself was a Jew and it is in Him that we see the supreme excellence of the dispensation of the Eternal Son.

Trust that is of some help, dear friend.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I posted earlier that Islam does not have the Holy Spirit. Islam believes that the advocate, paraclete that He was sent in the person of Muhammed.

Funny how Islam rejects the New Testament, but lays claim to Jesus sending them Muhammed. They falsely misinterpret the Greek translation when Jesus is referencing sending the Holy Spirit in reference to a “person” thus they get Muhammed. When they neglect the fact that the Holy Spirit is a person of the God head revealed in the blessed Trinity.

True the Holy Spirit is revealed in the Old Testament, but it is Jesus who dies and resurrects so that the Holy Spirit is with us always. The Old Testament did not have the Holy Spirit, does not mean that the Holy Spirit did not exist or is not foreshadowed from the Old Covenant.

Sorry I missed your earlier thoughts and post.

Surely that St. John the Baptist uses the term before Christ’s own Baptism in the Jordan [in Matthew 3:11] is evidence of some understanding of the Holy Spirit in Judaism at least in that day and age.

And was Mohammed the source of revelation for Islam, or the recipient? A misinterpretation on several counts, apparently, as Mohammed is not the Divine source himself. And whether or not you believe the accounts, if Mohammed did in fact receive God’s word, how was it that he was enlightened enough to understand it? This is too often forgotten IMO, as the grace of God is required for us to truly understand and become more like God, as we are called. If the Holy Spirit does not exist, how do we received these graces?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Trust that is of some help, dear friend.

It is indeed, my friend. I rasied the point because, as you have surely read as well, it has also been argued here that Jews do not worship the same God as Christians. It seems illogical to assert such, but in fairness, perhaps more logical to assert such as it relates to Islam, given this linkage and historical continuum as you have outlined.

The basic underlying principle still applies, however, IMO: that is, their understanding of God is incomplete and imperfect in comparison, but I fail to see how that same reasonable argument could be extended to discount the Catholic teaching that we do commonly believe in the Creator (a/k/a “the same” God). Perhaps our debate here is one of terminology, as well.

 

[Simka]

I turn around today and say I believe in the Trinity, The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. That is the teaching of the Gospel.

But then turn around say, I had the truth revealed to me by Jesus Christ, I have a new gospel.

What does your “new gospel” teach, rinnie? What is your new ‘truth revealed’? If you claim, for example, that Jesus has revealed new teachings to you that contradict or ‘update’ Biblical doctrine … that it was not really He who died on the cross at Calvary, because He is eternal and cannot die … and that from this moment forward, all loyal Christians should now, in the name of God the Son, take up arms and kill all dissenters who do not accept your new gospel …

… then I would conclude that the being who appeared to you was NOT in fact the Jesus of the Bible, but someone or something else – a demon from hell, perhaps – seeking to impersonate Jesus to establish credibility. The characteristics of this apparition are incompatible with the Jesus of Scripture.

And if you follow his instruction, and mislead other people into following, and you thus abandon your belief in the teaching of the Jesus of the Bible, in favor of the teachings of this imposter, then you and your followers have to make a choice.

Do you now pray to the Jesus of the Bible, whose teachings contradict your ‘new revelation’, and come to your senses, and repent … or do you pray to this ‘newly-revealed’ Jesus? They are not the same person. One is God, the other is not.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Sorry I missed your earlier thoughts and post.

Surely that St. John the Baptist uses the term before Christ’s own Baptism in the Jordan [in Matthew 3:11] is evidence of some understanding of the Holy Spirit in Judaism at least in that day and age.

And was Mohammed the source of revelation for Islam, or the recipient? A misinterpretation on several counts, apparently, as Mohammed is not the Divine source himself. And whether or not you believe the accounts, if Mohammed did in fact receive God’s word, how was it that he was enlightened enough to understand it? This is too often forgotten IMO, as the grace of God is required for us to truly understand and become more like God, as we are called. If the Holy Spirit does not exist, how do we received these graces?

I am not goiing to tread where angels fear to tread. No one can explain the mystery of God and how God moves in mysterious ways. Islam never believes that Muhammad is divine only the last prophet. IMHO Muhammad was visited by the angel Gabriel, if it was truly Gabriel who gave Muhammad the vision, then the Gabriel of the Koran contradicts the Gabriel of the New Testament in Word. One of them is an imposter, that is my humble opinion.

St.John the Baptist did not baptize with the Holy Spirit, his baptism is by water, Jesus is the one who baptizes with fire in the Holy Spirit.

Mary conceived Jesus by the Holy Spirit. So yes the Holy Spirit does exist because He is God. But the Church does not recieve the Power of the Holy Spirit until the resurrection and Pentecost.

Its interesting that all the prophets point to Jesus, and none of the old testament prophets ever point to Muhammad. Yet Islam claims Jesus preannounced Muhammad?

 

[rinnie]

Sorry I missed your earlier thoughts and post.

Surely that St. John the Baptist uses the term before Christ’s own Baptism in the Jordan [in Matthew 3:11] is evidence of some understanding of the Holy Spirit in Judaism at least in that day and age.

And was Mohammed the source of revelation for Islam, or the recipient? A misinterpretation on several counts, apparently, as Mohammed is not the Divine source himself. And whether or not you believe the accounts, if Mohammed did in fact receive God’s word, how was it that he was enlightened enough to understand it? This is too often forgotten IMO, as the grace of God is required for us to truly understand and become more like God, as we are called. If the Holy Spirit does not exist, how do we received these graces?

I have to agree with you on this one.

Also in numbers Moses said, May the Lord, the God of the spirits of all mankind sit over the community a man shalll act as thier leader in all thing to guide them in all their actions, that the Lord’s community may not be like a sheep without a shepherd.

While I agree the clear definition of the Holy Spirit was not given. It was still indeed God. It was his Holy Spirit.

 

[rinnie]

I am not goiing to tread where angels fear to tread. No one can explain the mystery of God and how God moves in mysterious ways. Islam never believes that Muhammad is divine only the last prophet. IMHO Muhammad was visited by the angel Gabriel, if it was truly Gabriel who gave Muhammad the vision, then the Gabriel of the Koran contradicts the Gabriel of the New Testament in Word. One of them is an imposter, that is my humble opinion.

St.John the Baptist did not baptize with the Holy Spirit, his baptism is by water, Jesus is the one who baptizes with fire in the Holy Spirit.

Mary conceived Jesus by the Holy Spirit. So yes the Holy Spirit does exist because He is God. But the Church does not recieve the Power of the Holy Spirit until the resurrection and Pentecost.

Its interesting that all the prophets point to Jesus, and none of the old testament prophets ever point to Muhammad. Yet Islam claims Jesus preannounced Muhammad?

Now this I agree with. But the Advocate the Holy Spirit came to lead us in the Church.

But the Holy Spirit also came to us in the O.T. but used certain men.

It is now they we can be sure we have the True Spirit because as we both know he will lead the Church until the end of age.

That is why we have the promise that no man can ever lead us astray if we follow the CC. Simply because the Church is the Pilar of all truth.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Now this I agree with. But the Advocate the Holy Spirit came to lead us in the Church.

But the Holy Spirit also came to us in the O.T. but used certain men.

It is now they we can be sure we have the True Spirit because as we both know he will lead the Church until the end of age.

That is why we have the promise that no man can ever lead us astray if we follow the CC. Simply because the Church is the Pilar of all truth.

The scripture reveal how we are to test the spirits and how we are to determine who has the true Spirit of God;

Luke 10: 24 For I say to you, **many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, but did not see it, and to hear what you hear, but did not hear it." **

John 14: 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always, 17 the Spirit of truth, 9 which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I in you.

2 John 7 Many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh; such is the deceitful one and the antichrist. 5
9 Anyone who is so “progressive” 7 as not to remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God; whoever remains in the teaching has the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him in your house or even greet him;
11 for whoever greets him shares in his evil works.

1 Timothy 6; 3 Whoever teaches something different and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the religious teaching
4 is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid disposition for arguments and verbal disputes. From these come envy, rivalry, insults, evil suspicions,
5 and mutual friction among people with corrupted minds, who are deprived of the truth,

1John 2:9 Whoever says he is in the light, yet hates his brother, is still in the darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother remains in the light, 22 Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist.
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.
27 … But his anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not false; just as it taught you, remain in him.

1 John 4: 1 **Beloved, **do not trust every spirit but test the spirits **to see whether they belong to God, **…2 This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God,
3 and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus 2 does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world.
4 You belong to God, children, and you have conquered them, for the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
5 They belong to the world; accordingly, their teaching belongs to the world, and the world listens to them.
6We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.

IMHO this scripture reveals to me that Islam, Mormonism, Jehovah Witnesses who proclaim to angels visions giving them another gospel long after Jesus’s gospel has to deal with this revelation of scripture.

Galatians 1: 6 I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by (the) grace (of Christ) for a different gospel
7 (not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 **But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! 9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed! **11 Now I want you to know, brothers, that **the gospel preached by me is not of human origin.
12 For I did not receive it from a human being, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ. **

But Islam does not allow Muslims to hear or see this in light of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Simka]

I’m not disputing that that’s what these Muslims told you. I’m disputing that this is the mainstream view of Muslim scholars/theologians.

Admittedly, my experiences are entirely subjective. Still, I believe they accurately reflect mainstream Islamic doctrine as it is understood and practised by the common people and their local leaders, outside North America. That’s my perception. I wish I were wrong.

Perhaps another difference is between local practice and the teaching of academics. I don’t know; I have experienced much more of the former, less of the latter.

Still, I suspect you will find a great difference in the openness of people’s conversations and their doctrinal statements, between when they are in a minority position on a public stage, and when they’re in the comfort of their own backyards and there’s no one to mount an objection.