Not the same God?

[ByzCathCantor]

Dr. Runcie, it is quite true, denied that he was a syncretist (“I am not advocating a single-minded, synthetic model of world religion”) and he affirmed that for Christians the life, suffering, death and Resurrection of Jesus would always remain the primary source of knowledge and truth concerning God. Thus the self-giving of God in His beloved Son was “firm and fundamental” and “not negotiable”. However, he went on to declare that “other faiths reveal other aspects of God which may enrich and enlarge our Christian understanding”.

The views expressed by Dr. Runcie do not appear wholly dissimilar and chime somewhat with those those of the Catholic Church and the Second Vatican Council - “Other religions…strive variously to answer the restless strivings of the human heart by proposing ‘ways’, which consist of teachings, rules of life, and sacred ceremonies. The Catholic Church rejects nothing which is true and holy in these religions. She looks with sincere respect upon those ways of conduct and of life which…often reflect a ray of that Tru**th which enlightens all men” (Nostra Aetate). The Catholic Church, to quote the enclyclical of Pope Paul VI, “respects and esteems those non-Christian rleigions because they are the living expression of the soul of vast groups of people. They carry within in them the echo of thousands of years of searching for God, a quest which is incomplete but often made with great sincerity and righteousness of heart. They possess an impressive patrimony of deeply religious texts. They have taught generations of people how to pray. They are all impregnated with innumerable ‘seeds of the word’ and can constitute a true preparation for the Gospel, to quote the felicitous term used by the Second Vatican Councill and borrowed from Eusebius of Caesarea” (Evangelii Nuntiandi).

Portrait - thanks for sharing this, and for those who are also pondering the developments within the Anglican Church (at least one thread going now), it is reassuring to see that its former chief prelate not so long ago was capable and willing to offer comments and teaching consistent with Catholic thought.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I’m not surprised, Mickey … and it makes me wonder all the more why Christians are so anxious to promote this doctrine … to shove it down Muslim throats, so to speak.

It reminds me of a circumstance I have read about recently … the determination of the Episcopal Church in the USA to be so “indiscriminately inclusive” that virtually anything goes, and doctrine doesn’t matter anymore.

One of my favorite preachers has referred to this as ‘sacrificing Truth on the altar of Tolerance’. I fear many of us are all too willing to engage in that endeavor.

I believe your still upset about that cafeteria conversation you had with a couple of muslims. You were talking apples they were talking oranges.

 

[GaryTaylor]

“Religion, taken as a whole, benefited much from the variety of its different forms. All the centuries that the Spirit of God had been working in Christians, he must also have been working in Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims and others…”.

Thank You, for the post Portrait.

Consistant with …I believe in ONE GOD creator of Heaven and Earth…you know, that one God who created the Rocks, Trees, Animals and MANKIND.

Tolerance and charity should never be mistaken for ignorance. Islam has been understood for “centuries”.

 

[Mickey]

One of my favorite preachers has referred to this as ‘sacrificing Truth on the altar of Tolerance’. I fear many of us are all too willing to engage in that endeavor.

Indeed.

 

[Mickey]

Consistant with …I believe in ONE GOD creator of Heaven and Earth…you know, that one God who created the Rocks, Trees, Animals and MANKIND.

That is Christ. And they (Muslims) reject Christ. Therefore they are not worshipping the same God.

 

[GaryTaylor]

That is Christ. And they (Muslims) reject Christ. Therefore they are not worshipping the same God.

God didn’t create the Muslims? Who did?

 

[Simka]

Dr. Runcie … identified himself with Francis Younghusband’s own words :

“Religion, taken as a whole, benefited much from the variety of its different forms. All the centuries that the Spirit of God had been working in Christians, he must also have been working in Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims and others…”.

Dr. Runcie … went on to declare that “other faiths reveal other aspects of God which may enrich and enlarge our Christian understanding”.

I’d agree wholeheartedly with the words of Francis Younghusband as you have presented them here. Ever since Pentecost, the ongoing ministry of the Holy Spirit has been to draw all men to Christ … all people, no matter what their religious starting point. He is certainly continuing that work today, as we see Muslims converting to Christianity even though it costs them their lives. That can only happen as the Spirit draws them. There is no reason to assume an innate belief in God in any man’s heart before the work of the Spirit begins.

And Dr. Runcie’s comments about other faiths revealing other aspects of God is equally valid. Today, we continue to learn more about our God from His interaction with other faiths; but surely the same comments are equally applicable to Moses’ experiences in Egypt, just before the exodus. I’d suggest there were other previously unrecognized aspects of God revealed to the Israelites, enriching and enlarging their understanding, through His confrontation with Egyptian deities. Clearly such revelations of God did not presuppose an underlying Egyptian belief in Him.

Ultimately, the Egyptians were left with no choice but to recognize the superiority of God over their gods. I believe that, too, is an inevitable human experience.

 

[GaryTaylor]

“Ultimately, the Egyptians were left with no choice but to recognize the superiority of God over their gods. I believe that, too, is an inevitable human experience.”

Daniel is another great example in scripture.

 

[Portrait]

Portrait - thanks for sharing this, and for those who are also pondering the developments within the Anglican Church (at least one thread going now), it is reassuring to see that its former chief prelate not so long ago was capable and willing to offer comments and teaching consistent with Catholic thought.

Dear ByzCathCantor,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. You are most welcome and I am pleased that you found my post helpful.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait:tiphat:

Pax

 

[rinnie]

Not at all. I contend there is one, true God, known to us by many names but including “the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” (one of the ways He identified Himself in Scripture). The object of Muslim worship is, however, no god at all, but one of two things: either the pure figment of a 7th-century soldier’s imagination, or the result of an actual series of visitations – not of God’s messenger, Gabriel, as Mohammad was led to believe, but an impersonating demonic force having satanic power to deceive people and lead them away from God.

Mohammad hoped Jews and Christians, as “People of the Book”, would join his campaign. Claiming that he, too, worshipped “the God of Abraham” was a necessary element of persuasion, without a shred of truth. The deception has continued.

You have lost me here, so are you trying to say that Mohammad did not worship the God of Abraham, so by that he made the God of Abraham the Muslims worship false?

 

[rinnie]

Sorry, rinnie, I cannot answer your question, because – now attending church in North America – the topic of the object of Muslim worship has not come up for discussion, so far as I am aware. Not being confronted with the issue, perhaps there is no official teaching on this subject.

Fair enough!

 

[rinnie]

I’m not surprised, Mickey … and it makes me wonder all the more why Christians are so anxious to promote this doctrine … to shove it down Muslim throats, so to speak.

It reminds me of a circumstance I have read about recently … the determination of the Episcopal Church in the USA to be so “indiscriminately inclusive” that virtually anything goes, and doctrine doesn’t matter anymore.

One of my favorite preachers has referred to this as ‘sacrificing Truth on the altar of Tolerance’. I fear many of us are all too willing to engage in that endeavor.

How do you figure that? How can we obeying our Pope and instead of arguing what we don’t agree on, come to a peace on the truth we do agree on, accuse us of shoving our doctrines down a Muslims throat?

SO then we I agree with a Protestant on Christ being the Son of God, I would be accused of the same thing?

 

[rinnie]

So here is what we have learned.

Muslims worship the God of Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, and Jesus, but he is a false god. Why because they do not see the fullness of the Christian faith.’

So if you do not see God in the fullness of the Christian faith, it makes the One God, creator of heaven and earth, a false god.

Olay back to the question I asked a long time ago. And never got a answer for.

ST Paul did not see Christ in the Trinity. Before he was confronted by Christ personally St Paul also would have to be accused of worshiping a false god, before confronted by Jesus Correct?

Because you HAVE to accuse St Paul of also praying to a false god if you continue on with this belief.

Next question what about Noah, Moses, David? Of course we can leave Jesus out, because he knew he was God, we can at least all agree on that, I HOPE!

So then if ST Paul did not know, how could Moses, David, etc? And you must accuse him of having a false god also.

You simply cannot have it both ways. Whats it gonna be?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

You simply cannot have it both ways. Whats it gonna be?

Interesting recap, rinnie!

And we only have 94 posts left to resolve it!

 

[Contarini]

tolerance

of polygamy … but that’s a far cry from an overt endorsement and encouragement of it as standard practice. Or do you see no difference in these points of view?

Where is polygamy encouraged in Islam? If we really want to be picky, I could argue that it is encouraged in the OT in the case of the “levirate marriage law,” in which a man was expected to marry the widow of his childless brother. In practice, since most people married fairly early, that required polygamy in most cases. Certainly the proliferation of wives is criticized for monarchs (realistically, few other men had the chance to go beyond a couple wives)–but similarly, Islam has the four-wife rule. I’m not denying that there are differences, but they are differences of nuance, not huge contrasts. And that’s true for all the issues you raise except for the Trinity. The Trinity is the only substantive issue (with regard to the character of God) where there’s a clear-cut distance with lots of “blue water” between Christianity and Islam. And that argument only works for you if you’re willing to say that Jews don’t worship the true God either, and that Old Testament Jews worshiped the Trinity. I find both of these to be highly questionable claims at best. Other than the Trinity, it’s all very subjective. Yes, Islam tends to emphasize God’s power and sovereignty, while Christianity is relatively more likely to emphasize God’s grace and mercy. But given the importance of God’s compassion in Islam, and given the prevalence of “hellfire and brimstone” Christianity historically, that’s hardly the clear-cut distinction you want it to be.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[Simka]

I believe your still upset about that cafeteria conversation you had with a couple of muslims.

If that’s the impression I created, I should help you better understand that meeting.

It was many years ago, in a time and place where – unlike today – acknowledging your Christian faith didn’t automatically schedule your execution. There were six of us Christians sticking together in a meeting room otherwise occupied by about 200 Muslims.

I forget now what I heard that prompted me to speak up, but I said that, as I understand Him, God loves everyone of every religion, every faith, every belief system; that He wants to have a personal, one-on-one relationship with each and every one of us; that His greatest desire is for us to love Him as He loves us, and He longs for so much more than just a ‘Master-Slave’ relationship.

Their response (“That’s your God, not ours. We worship our God, not yours.”) was a declaration to me that they saw the two as very different. I had inadvertently hit upon one of those “mutually exclusive” characteristics I have since alluded to here.

It was not said to me with malice, and I was not upset, or fearful. It would be some while before my life was threatened, and I had to leave.

Making reference in this forum to this aspect of Muslim teaching and being asked to “Prove it” is difficult, if not impossible. I wasn’t taping the event. But the implication was plain. And the recent history of Christian persecution seems to me adequate confirmation.

 

[Portrait]

Today, we continue to learn more about our God from His interaction with other faiths; but surely the same comments are equally applicable to Moses’ experiences in Egypt, just before the exodus. I’d suggest there were other previously unrecognized aspects of God revealed to the Israelites, enriching and enlarging their understanding, through His confrontation with Egyptian deities. Clearly such revelations of God did not presuppose an underlying Egyptian belief in Him.

Ultimately, the Egyptians were left with no choice but to recognize the superiority of God over their gods. I believe that, too, is an inevitable human experience.

Dear Simka,

Cordial greetings and thankyou for your above response.

It is, of course, quite possible that some of those Egyptians had an implicit faith in the God of the Jews and, because of their earnest search for God and a sincere heart, they strived, under the influence of grace, “to put into effect the will of God as known to them through the dictate of conscience”, to quote the Vatican II document Lumen Gentium 16. This would have acted as a preparation so that they would, at length, come “to recognize the superiority of God over their gods”. This is grace in action, so to speak, and is the Lord’s doing.

A non-Christian religion, such as Islam, does not merely contain elements of a natural knowledge of God (i.e. general revelation), but it also contains supernatural elements arising out of grace which is given to men as a gratuitous gift on account of Christ, “who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (I Tim. 2: 4).

We are agreed, dear friend, that there are true and fine things in the non-Christian religions. There is also belief in the one true God, “Maker of Heaven and Earth”, even if that belief is not explicitly expressed as it is with us Christians. In the mosques of Islam is inscribed the verse of the throne, as it is termed. It goes like this:

“There is no god but he, the Living, the Eternal; slumber affects him not nor sleep; to him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth…his throne extendeth over the heavens and the earth, to guard them wearieth him not; he is Exalted, the Mighty”.

Such a passage might be read alongside some of the Pslams. Most of the sayings of the Koran begin with the statement: “In the name of the merciful and compassionate God”. Is not this the kind of God that we Christians believe in, one marked by mercy and compassion?

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[ByzCathCantor]

At the risk of putting us on a slight tangent (although it seems quite relevant in light of the views expressed here throughout), does anyone ever wonder why scholars often refer to Judeo-Christian tradition as opposed to a broader, more inclusive Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition?

 

[rinnie]

Interesting recap, rinnie!

And we only have 94 posts left to resolve it!

Bet it won’t! Because then you have to see it either as all of the Apostles included had a false god before Jesus also. They were Jews.

Jesus never said you have a false God because you do not know who I am. He even asked them who do you say I am. It was Peter who stood up and told Jesus,

Then Jesus said flesh and blood never reavealed this to you but my Father in heaven. Now here is a very very interesting point. Peter was also a Jew correct? Did he not know Jewish teaching’s?

Then if Abraham revealed all of this as it is claimed, how could that be, When Jesus told Peter God revealed it to him. Is Abraham not flesh and bones!

 

[Simka]

So here is what we have learned.Muslims worship the God of Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, and Jesus, but he is a false god.

Nope! Radical oversimplification, and the underlying source of your confusion.

Despite their claims to the contrary, they do NOT worship the one whom Christians have come to recognize as the God of Noah, Abraham, et al. As Muslims define him, and according to the identifying characteristics they attribute to him, the object of their worship is not – cannot be – the same as our God.

We cannot both be right. Either they, or we, worship a deceiving impersonator.