Not the same God?

[Gabriel_of_12]

PRmerger;8918868]Ok.

But just like any *other *non-Christian who says, “I believe that God is the Giver of Life and the Taker of Life” when Muhammed says it, we say, “You’re right!”

Islam is NOT true. So this is a red herring.

I think what all this hoopla is all about is people cannot separate certain concepts.

It is worth mentioning here that the Early Church Fathers considered Islam a new Christian sect coming out of the East. The church dubbed Islam as Christian Mohammedians, who professed a heretical Jesus deriving from another form of Arianism. The early church viewed Islam as another form of heretical Christians.

Some Muslims will deny it, but the Koran did not get completed until long after their prophet Muhammed was dead.

IF Muslims would be free to view Islam from its original form when it took place, from the history of the Catholic church, when it was viewed as Christian from its inception. They may find the Islam today looks a bit different from the Islam original invented by their prophet Muhammed?

 

[Mickey]

1 John 2:23 (Douay-Rheims)– Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.

 

[GaryTaylor]

1 John 2:23 (Douay-Rheims)– Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.

Is this the teaching of the EO and ROC? Could you supply “current documents” from the Patriarchs in regards to their teaching on Islam? I swore I saw Partiarch Bartholomew with Benedict at Assisi? That was him, No?

I did read this…

“As a citizen of Turkey, Patriarch Bartholomew’s personal experience provides him a unique perspective on the continuing dialogue among the Christian, Islamic and Jewish worlds. He works to advance reconciliation among Catholic, Muslim and Orthodox communities, such as in former Yugoslavia, and is supportive of peace building measures to diffuse global conflict in the region.”

Why I didn’t read where he called Islam the Antichist in not one single article? Do you have “That Article”?

 

[PRmerger]

1 John 2:23 (Douay-Rheims)– Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.

Catholics give a hearty to this!

 

[GaryTaylor]

Right I’m shocked John 8:39-47 hasn’t appeared yet. We get all that. no new mystery here.

All well and fine, still comes back around to 2012. Depending what day it is, we’ll hear the CC teachs NO SALVATION outside the Church. To some loose interpretation of many paths to heaven…which BTW is an “incorrect” interpretation, which arrive’s through twisted understanding of “only” the CCC.

At the end of the day… still one God, still trying to get the world to see this, still promoting love and peace in Christ as THE PATH to heaven…the Cross.

However, its abundantly clear what the CC teachs, I’d like to hear what the Patriarchs are teaching in 2012? Do you have those statements??? I can’t imagine where one of them declared Islam the Antichrist, or how that would somehow be a success in a peace effort? Perhaps I’m wrong?

 

[Mickey]

Is this the teaching of the EO and ROC?

I think they stay pretty quiet on the subject Gary. But if a Patriarch or bishop or even and angel from heaven proclaimed such a thing…we would not be bound to believe it.

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.
Gal 1:8-9

 

[Mickey]

I can’t imagine where one of them declared Islam the Antichrist

There is also the people-deceiving cult (threskeia) of the Ishmaelites, the forerunner of the Antichrist, which prevails until now.
St John** of Damascus**

 

[Mickey]

I’m shocked John 8:39-47 hasn’t appeared yet.

This discussion seems to be geared more toward the Muslims.

 

[rinnie]

There are millions more who believe this way. Here is but one example:

…the same God who reveals Himself by nature also reveals Himself supernaturally. Among other things, He revealed that the Divine Essence is in three consubstantial Persons. So, supposing we insert this false note in our definition of God: “God is not a Trinity.” Do we have the True God?
I think not.
Brother André Marie (Catholic Monk)

And? So then as I said if this is taken in the conext you want it to be taken the Jews are out! Right?

 

[Mickey]

And? So then as I said if this is taken in the conext you want it to be taken the Jews are out! Right?

Do today’s Jews worship the Holy Trinity? Do they believe in Jesus Christ?

 

[rinnie]

Well I was going somewhere else with that scripture; but sense you bring up again.

If the devils believe in the one true God, but reject the salvation plan of God through Jesus Christ for our humanity.

Islam also believes in the one true God, the same as the demons do, who reject the salvation plan of God through Jesus Christ for our humanity.

Are you making the claim that the CCC teaches that the same God Islam teaches is the same God of the Catholic Church, from the revelations each one recieved?

Can you show me where the CCC teaches this? The CCC addresses Muslims profess the faith of Abraham (in one God), it does not define what this faith is, other than faith in one God. The CCC does not address Islam revelations of God to be the same God Catholics believe in.

It would appear that the CCC is silent on Islam teachings of God. But reveals the faith of the Muslim in the one creator God from the same faith Abraham had in one God.

When Muslims profess to have faith in one God, just as Abraham believed in one God. We journey along this road with the Muslims and end with them in the final judgement of one God. Everything in between Islam reveals of their God is not mentioned in the CCC only the profession of Muslims faith of Abraham in one God.

Nope, never made that claim at all. The Teaching of Islam has very litttle to do with the fullness of the truth. Never said it did.

The question seems to KEEP getting lost. Is the God of Muhammad a false god? The CCC states that together with US THEY ADORE The one true God.

Now if they have a false god, because they had a false teacher, what does that have to do with them praying to the true God of Abraham. And how does a false teacher make the God false.

SO then what you are saying is this, If you do not have the fullness of the truth, believe in a false teaching your God has to be a false god, Right?

What did the JPll say about their teaching? In my own words he said this.

He said we both profess the faith of Abraham and adore the one true God, He also said apart from that we pretty much part ways. He said because of a false prophet they have pretty much been led astray from the truth.

But the Truth they do have is this. The ONE TRUE GOD the creator of heaven and earth. That is the God they pray to and believe in.

If they prayed to and adored Muhammad and believed he was indeed a GOD not a prophet, then I would agree with you.

But they don’t believe Muhammad is a god, they believe in the same God as us, but they follow the teachings of a false prophet.

So are you willing to say that the One God the creator of heaven and earth is false? I’m not, and neither is our Church.

Now answer me this, if they have a false god, how can we together adore the One True God, and we adore the One true God, but they don"t? The CCC says we TOGETHER.

Why does it not say we, apart from the Muslims, adore the One true God?

Again how is this possible for us to together ADORE the ONE TRUE GOD, if they do not have the ONE TRUE GOD?

ANd how does that say that have the full truth revealed to them by the One True God? It never stated that. It only stated they do not pray to a false God, that they pray the true God the same as us.

Thousands of religions have the ONE TRUE GOD, and do not have half of the true teachings. But that is not what we are saying here is it?

 

[rinnie]

Do today’s Jews worship the Holy Trinity? Do they believe in Jesus Christ?

Nope!! But they have the One True God the God of Abraham.

But many are comming to the revelation that Jesus Christ is indeed the true Son of God.

But how does them not seeing the fullness of the truth in the Trinity make their God false?

You are always so quick to answer me one everything else, Why not this. What is your answer?

 

[rinnie]

Also Mickey I gave you that scripture from St Paul. Did you read it? Did you see what St Paul was saying?

 

[rinnie]

And? So then as I said if this is taken in the conext you want it to be taken the Jews are out! Right?

I answered your question, now you answer mine. Because they reject Christ in the Trinity the Jews are out? Correct Mickey?

And as I asked you earlier and you refuse to answer me. What is the difference between rejecting Christ in the Eucharist and rejecting him in the Trinity? Please explain this to me.

What makes one worse then another?

 

[Mickey]

What is your answer?

But at any rate the Jews say that they, too, adore God. God forbid that I say that. No Jew adores God! Who say so? The Son of God say so. For he said: “If you were to know my Father, you would also know me. But you neither know me nor do you know my Father”. Could I produce a witness more trustworthy than the Son of God?
St John Chrysostom

 

[illusion_buster]

No. We worship the Trinitarian God.
.

The Jews do not understand the Trinity concept yet their God is our God… What then makes the Muslem’s God NOT God as is the Jewish God? Both believe in ONE God …both can’t grasp the concept of God as a Trinity. The God is the same…The CONCEPT of God is for both different from Christians to whom the FULLNESS of God was revealed through Jesus and His Holy Spirit. But the initial God is the same.

Maimonides’ Thirteen Principles one of which is:

I firmly believe that the Creator, blessed be his name, is One: that there is no oneness in any form like his; & that he alone was, is, & ever will be our God.

We have been thus brought up to think that if we believe that God is One, then this idea excludes any idea of God manifesting Himself through Jesus the Messiah. This Christian concept of God’s triunity seemed to us to be a Gentile and pagan idea. NOT SO! Christians, as well as Jewish people, must believe in One God. There is no other. The God of Abraham. Isaac and Jacob is the God of the Jewish people and of the Christians. The Hebrew Scriptures of the Old Testament are authoritative for the Jew and for the Christian. In them is found the confession that

is authoritative for all of us.

Hear. O Israel. the LORD our God, the LORD IS ONE.

 

[Mickey]

The Jews do not understand the Trinity concept yet their God is our God…

Are you sure about that? How can anyone be worshipping the same God as the Christians when they deny the Trinity…when they reject Christ?

 

[illusion_buster]

'zactly.

And a Catholic would offer a parallel: both Baptists and Catholics worship the same Christ, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, However, the Baptist understanding is flawed (in that they reject the Eucharist, reject the authority of the Church, reject Sacred Tradition, etc etc etc).

It’s not that they ‘reject’ these things…it’s because they already have a full and righteous relationship with God and see no NEED for these ‘things’ in their lives. If one is full why look to add…unless you wish to be overflowing (nothing wrong with this!)

 

[rinnie]

The Jews do not understand the Trinity concept yet their God is our God… What then makes the Muslem’s God NOT God as is the Jewish God? Both believe in ONE God …both can’t grasp the concept of God as a Trinity. The God is the same…The CONCEPT of God is for both different from Christians to whom the FULLNESS of God was revealed through Jesus and His Holy Spirit. But the initial God is the same.

Maimonides’ Thirteen Principles one of which is:

I firmly believe that the Creator, blessed be his name, is One: that there is no oneness in any form like his; & that he alone was, is, & ever will be our God.

We have been thus brought up to think that if we believe that God is One, then this idea excludes any idea of God manifesting Himself through Jesus the Messiah. This Christian concept of God’s triunity seemed to us to be a Gentile and pagan idea. NOT SO! Christians, as well as Jewish people, must believe in One God. There is no other. The God of Abraham. Isaac and Jacob is the God of the Jewish people and of the Christians. The Hebrew Scriptures of the Old Testament are authoritative for the Jew and for the Christian. In them is found the confession that

is authoritative for all of us.

Hear. O Israel. the LORD our God, the LORD IS ONE.

Israel was able to discover God had only one reason to reveal himslef to them, His pure Love.God never stopped saving them and pardoning thier unfaithfulness and sins. CCC 218

God’s love for Israel is compared to a fathers love for h is son, His love for his people is stronger then a mothers for her Children. God loves his people more than a bridgroom his beloved… CCC 219

 

[Mickey]

They answered, and said to him: Abraham is our father. Jesus saith to them: If you be the children of Abraham, do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill me, a man who have spoken the truth to you, which I have heard of God. This Abraham did not.
You do the works of your father. They said therefore to him: We are not born of fornication: we have one Father, even God. Jesus therefore said to them: If God were your Father, you would indeed love me. For from God I proceeded, and came; for I came not of myself, but he sent me: Why do you not know my speech? Because you cannot hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. But if I say the truth, you believe me not. Which of you shall convince me of sin? If I say the truth to you, why do you not believe me? He that is of God, heareth the words of God. Therefore you hear them not, because you are not of God. The Jews therefore answered, and said to him: Do not we say well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? Jesus answered: I have not a devil: but I honour my Father, and you have dishonoured me.
John 8:39-49