R
rinnie
Guest
Amen my brother. Amen!
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M
Mickey
Guest
Amen.
As a one-time Byzantine Catholic (Ruthenian) for eight years…I have felt the pain of that separation. God willing, a day of reconciliation is on the horizon.We hopefully have a better chance in the near term for Catholic-Orthodox reconciliation!
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Islam means "surrender to "Allah (God)
Muslim is a person who acts in “surrender” is called a Muslim
The Muslim professes the faith of Abraham in One God.
Islam does not teach the faith of Abraham’s God otherwise they would follow the cut of the covenant
I understand your irony, but my comments are reflecting what the CCC addresses in the professed faith of the Muslim in Abraham, not Muhammed’s faith in Islam.
R
rinnie
Guest
cont; reply to rinnie post
Everything I have stated here never conflicts with JPII statements in regards to the Muslims faith of Abraham.
Amen, so long as it is the faith in the one true God of Abraham. On a side note one can interpet Islam not believing in the same God of Abraham, but Islam believing in One God, as Abraham believed in One God, but not the same God. Because if Islam believed in Abrahams God, why would Islam correct the God of Abraham?
Muslims who profess to have the “FAITH” of Abraham having faith in ONE GOD. This is the same God we adore together.
When a Muslim professes to believe in the god of Muhammed who corrected Abrahams God from Islam. Then we are speaking of two different dieties.
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No, and neither is the Muslim from the faith of Abrahams in his one God. But Islam teaches that it’s one god creater does not have the power , will and love to become flesh in order to save man, and Islam’s god never did. Islam’s god is not the same God promised to Abraham a son, revealed in the fullness of time in Jesus God incarnate.
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I think I answered this above? I hoped to draw the distinct difference between the Muslims professed faith in Abrahams “faith” in one God the creator, from this faith together with us we “adore” God our creator together, The CCC does not teach that we adore together with Muslims who profess to have faith in the god of Muhammed. When Islam’s teaching denies our faith in the One True God who revealed Himself in the Son.
P
Portrait
Guest
Dear Mickey,
Cordial greetings and thankyou for response above.
We are not going to agree on this one, my dear brother, but I must defer to the teachings of my Church as regards the topic currently under review. Having said that, I do understand and appreciate what you are saying, but I do think that the intention of the fathers of the Council was to affirm that, by the criterion of evangelical and Catholic truth, there are elements of truth and holiness not only in Judaism but in religions outside the Judaeo-Christian tradition as well, including Islam.
There is, however, a very real danger today of being submerged in a wishy-washy ecumenical politeness that ignores fundamental differences. That can never be acceptable and only results in endless confusion among the faithful as to what the Church really teaches as regards the non-Christian religions.
The time is coming when Muslims will have their faith and will fight to keep it, whereas the nihilism of the West will be powerless to resist the robust religion of Islam. Inter-faith dialogue and multi-cultural activities will not be the panacea some optimists imagine that it will be. Islam is, like Christianity, a missionary religion and that should never be lost sight of in these ecumenical times in which are lot is cast.
God bless.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
B
ByzCathCantor
Guest
So these are two separate religions?
I understand that Islam means (translated) “surrender”, but it is also a proper name of a religion, as is Christianity, Judaism, etc.
And yes, a Muslim may profess the faith of Abraham in One God, but as adherents to Islam, do they not also hold that they Qur’an, as given to Mohammed by Jibril (Archangel Gabriel), is the verbatim word of God?
Are you saying is possible to be a Muslim outside of Islam?
R
rinnie
Guest
St JPll said:
We believe in the SAME GOD the ONE GOD the LIVING GOD who created the world.
Insegnamenti, Vlll/2 1982 page 497.
We believe in the SAME GOD the ONE GOD the LIVING GOD who created the world.
Insegnamenti, Vlll/2 1982 page 497.
M
Mickey
Guest
Well…we can’t agree on everything.
I understand…but I still say that you are not bound to that particular opinion.
“Since the Catechism treats many things that not only have not been taught infallibly but which also have been proposed in the most tentative of fashions (esp. in the area of social teaching), there remains due liberty for theologians (and others) when they encounter something that has been proposed only tentatively.”
Cardinal Ratzinger****
Ah, yes…here we agree.
Peace and prayers,
Mickey
M
Mickey
Guest
But the Creator is Christ…and they do not acknowledge Him.
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
The CCC is addressing all religions, Muslims in particular who profess Abrahams faith in one God creator, all of these are God’s children from creation. All of these are included in the plan of Salvation.
The salvation part the CCC is not addressing that specifically, only in regards to Muslims faith of Abraham professed and God the creator.
Yes, but how is the Creator aknowledged by Muslims? “in Abrahams faith” not Muhammed’s faith. The salvation plan is to bring the “light of life” to the Muslim. But Islam refuses to release the enslavement of Muslims to hear the gospel of Jesus. The Light of Jesus will expose Islam and bring to light its salvation attributes it gives to God in service first by acknowledging God as the creator from Abrahams faith.
The CCC states the Muslims do profess the faith of Abraham in one God. From this faith of Abraham together with us adore God.
The CCC does not state the Muslims profess the faith of Muhammed god.
All man are included in the plan of salvation, even though from different religions, it is the commission of the church to bring the light of salvation to their images and shadows of God the creator whom they seek. Yet Islam enslaves its people from allowing the light to come or recieve the light of salvation.
Very simple don’t use the CCC to state that it teaches the same God as Islam. The CCC teaches of the Same God from the Muslim who professess the faith of Abraham in One God.
No I am not trying to reveal anyones disposition of faith in God. Only what the CCC has stated in regards to the faith professed by Muslims in Abrahams faith.
I
The CCC addressess the Muslim who professes the faith of Abraham in one God.
The CCC does not address the faith of Muhammed’s god from Islam.
The CCC is addressing peoples faith in our creator, not the idelogies they traditionally are holding too.
The Muslim professes the faith in Abraham’s one creator in God.
The Church never acknowledges a Muslims faith in Muhammed’s god from Islam, only the one God whom Muslim profess to be the faith of Abraham’s.
R
rinnie
Guest
Vatican Council II
The Catholic Church reject NOTHING of what is true and Holy in these religions.
The Church has a high regard for the Muslims. They Worship GOD who is ONE living and subsistent, merciful and almighty creator of heaven and earth who has also spoken to humanity,’
They endeavor to submit themselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God, JUST as ABRAHAM submitted himslef to God’s plan. to whose faith Muslims eargerly link their own.
I am sorry, I have been called names, etc for only teaching not what I think, What my Pope teaches. And I cannot be sorry for what I believe to be the truth from my Pope.
The sacred council now pleads with us ALL to forget the past and urges that a sincere effort be made to achieve MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING for the benefit of ALL. let them together preserve and promote peace, liberty social justice and moral values.
Sounding the debts of the MYSTERY which is the CHURCH, this sacred council remember the spriitual ties which LINK the people of the New Covenant to the STOCK of ABRAHAM.
This ny friends is my faith!
The Catholic Church reject NOTHING of what is true and Holy in these religions.
The Church has a high regard for the Muslims. They Worship GOD who is ONE living and subsistent, merciful and almighty creator of heaven and earth who has also spoken to humanity,’
They endeavor to submit themselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God, JUST as ABRAHAM submitted himslef to God’s plan. to whose faith Muslims eargerly link their own.
I am sorry, I have been called names, etc for only teaching not what I think, What my Pope teaches. And I cannot be sorry for what I believe to be the truth from my Pope.
The sacred council now pleads with us ALL to forget the past and urges that a sincere effort be made to achieve MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING for the benefit of ALL. let them together preserve and promote peace, liberty social justice and moral values.
Sounding the debts of the MYSTERY which is the CHURCH, this sacred council remember the spriitual ties which LINK the people of the New Covenant to the STOCK of ABRAHAM.
This ny friends is my faith!
P
PRmerger
Guest
What are the adherents of Islam called?
P
PRmerger
Guest
And they are wrong for not acknowledging him.But the Creator is Christ…and they do not acknowledge Him.
But they are right in adoring, together with us, the One God who is all merciful and all just.
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Iam addressing what the CCC has revealed in regards to the faith professed my Muslims in Abrahams faith of one God. The CCC never addresses the faith of Muhammed nor Islam.
This same God from Abrahams faith professed by Muslims is the one Creater with us whom we adore.
The Muslim outside of this scope from Abrahams faith in God moves in another direction to the "faith of Muhammed in Islam, which is never the faith of Abraham.
The Muslim is outside of Islam when he professes the faith of Abraham alone. When the Muslim takes his professed faith of Abraham’s faith in one God, and applies it to Muhammads faith and not Abraham’s faith, Islam introduces another god over the faith of Abraham God. Now the Muslims faith (not Abrahams faith) from Muhammad’s faith means that Muhammad professess in One God Creator as in the faith of Abraham who believed in one God creator, but not the same God.
If Muhammed’s Islam believed in Abrahams God, Muhammed would of followed Abrahams God in the circumcision covenant which leads to Jesus Christ.
The CCC has found an avenue to reach Muslims who profess the faith of Abrahams faith in one God to open doors to communication when Islam enslaves its Muslims from coming to the light of the Gospel of Jesus.
The CCC pronounces good news between Catholics and Muslims from the faith of Abraham. But it is the blessed Mother Mary who brings Jesus to all of humanity. The blessed Virgin Mary will be instrumental in bring the light of salvation to these religions.
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
I agree with the statement:thumbsup: everything having to do with Muslims who link their faith to Abrahams.They endeavor to submit themselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God, JUST as ABRAHAM submitted himslef to God’s plan. to whose faith Muslims eargerly link their own.
Nothing here about Muhammed’s faith or the teaching of Islam. Hello…
M
Mickey
Guest
(CCC 841) “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
Let us analyze this statement:
“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator”
True.
“in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims”
False. The Creator is the Triune God. Muslims reject the Triune God.
“these profess to hold the faith of Abraham”
Ambiguous. If they “profess” to hold the faith of Abraham….they would be worshipping the Triune God.
“and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
False. The one, merciful God is the Triune God. They reject the Triune God.
Conclusion: There is one absolute statement of truth in this theological opinion. That statement of truth tells us that “the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator.” The Creator is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Muslims do not acknowledge the Creator. Therefore they do not worship the one, true God….the Triune God.
Let us analyze this statement:
“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator”
True.
“in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims”
False. The Creator is the Triune God. Muslims reject the Triune God.
“these profess to hold the faith of Abraham”
Ambiguous. If they “profess” to hold the faith of Abraham….they would be worshipping the Triune God.
“and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
False. The one, merciful God is the Triune God. They reject the Triune God.
Conclusion: There is one absolute statement of truth in this theological opinion. That statement of truth tells us that “the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator.” The Creator is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Muslims do not acknowledge the Creator. Therefore they do not worship the one, true God….the Triune God.
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
I will only give you the first one all the others deal with disciplines of prayer, fasting and almsgiving.
- Profession of belief in Allah as the only God and Muhammad as his prophet.
a. Because I do not follow the god of Muhammad
b. I adore the God together with Muslims who profess the faith of Abraham’s faith in God. I do not adore the god from the prophet Muhammad.
To follow the faith of Muhammad’s god, and not the faith of Abraham’s God does not follow the teaching of the CCC.
P
PRmerger
Guest
I think you misunderstand. I did not say “what are the tenets of Islam?”
I asked what are the adherents of Islam called?
That is, the adherents of Judaism are called Jews.
The adherents of the Latter Day Saints are called Mormons.
The adherents of Catholicism are called Catholics.
The adherents of Islam are called…what?
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Your analyzation misinformes and misinterprets the CCC undertakings here. You falsely analyze from the outside looking in, not from the inside reaching out as the light of the gospel travels. Your drawn conclusions lack’s the church’s wisdom of love and ecumenical efforts being displayed here.
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Oh, sorry:blush:
I haven’t looked back at your original post but I thought you asked for the “adherence to the five tenents of Islam”.
What are the followers of Islam called Muslim. Do I get an A this time
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