Not the same God?

[Mickey]

You falsely analyze from the outside looking in

On the contrary. It is much more honest than attempting to show that the CCC is somehow speaking of two different Islams. Actually, I’m still not sure what you are trying to say. But I think it is obvious that you are trying to make an apologetic for the passage.

 

[PRmerger]

What are the followers of Islam called Muslim. Do I get an A this time

A+.

Now, as I stated earlier, if it furthers the dialogue I will continue to use the term “Muslim” rather than “Islam” in discussing the Church’s teaching from the Catechism…but I think this dichotomy you’ve created between Muslims, whom the Church is addressing, and Islam is a false one.

One is the concept. The other are its practitioners. Can’t have one without the other.

But if that’s the semantic distinction you wish to make, so be it.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

It is much more honest than attempting to show that the CCC is somehow speaking of two different Islams. Actually, I’m still not sure what you are trying to say.

Mickey is not alone - we are trying to figure out exactly what it is you are trying to say. Suggesting there are two types of Muslims, and that’s what the CCC teaches, is a bit hard to grasp (and I’m Catholic, so I’m honestly trying to follow your argument here …).

 

[PRmerger]

]But I think it is obvious that you are trying to make an apologetic for the passage.

Of course. That’s what we’re commanded to do in 1 Peter 3:15.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Peter 3:15[/BIBLEDRB]

Not to mention, isn’t that the entire purpose of the CAFs?

We’re here to try to “make an apologetic” for all things Catholic.

 

[Mickey]

Mickey is not alone - we are trying to figure out exactly what it is you are trying to say. Suggesting there are two types of Muslims, and that’s what the CCC teaches, is a bit hard to grasp (and I’m Catholic, so I’m honestly trying to follow your argument here …).

Thanks. I thought I was in the twilight zone for a minute.

 

[Mickey]

For me, the answer to this question is very clear.

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**The Koran says: “**Allah forbid that he should have a son!” (Sura 4:171)

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The Bible says: “Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.”( 1 John 2:23)

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St John** has given us the answer….and the answer is no……the Muslims do not have the Father….because they have rejected the Son.**

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**That is my last post on the matter. I am not going to convince anyone on the other side. And it is a certainty that no one is going change my stance. I think that it is unfortunate that Rome penned some rather ambiguous statements which have led many of the faithful to accept something that was not taught for hundreds of years beforehand. **

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**But St John has given us a very clear answer….and a 20th century theological opinion does not obscure that answer. **

---

Thanks for the great conversation everyone.

 

[rinnie]

Mickey is not alone - we are trying to figure out exactly what it is you are trying to say. Suggesting there are two types of Muslims, and that’s what the CCC teaches, is a bit hard to grasp (and I’m Catholic, so I’m honestly trying to follow your argument here …).

You are going to have to add me to the mix also. I have no clue what he is saying.

We are taught that although they do not acknowledge him as God, they venerate Jesus as a prophet, his virgin MOther they also honor. they wait the day of judgement and the reward of God following the resurrection of the dead.

For THIS reason thehy highly esteem an upright life and WORSHIP GOD especially by way of prayer alms-deeds and fasting.

Now I believe the question was and always has been do we all worship the same God.

I guess the question becomes do we also worship God who is one, living and subsistent merciful and almighty the creator of heaven and earth who has also spoken to humanity. My answer is of course we do.

 

[rinnie]

Your analyzation misinformes and misinterprets the CCC undertakings here. You falsely analyze from the outside looking in, not from the inside reaching out as the light of the gospel travels. Your drawn conclusions lack’s the church’s wisdom of love and ecumenical efforts being displayed here.

This I also agree with totally. But Gabriel I have always had great respect for you and your knowledge of the faith, but with all do respect you really lost me on what you have been saying lately.

But this post. Yes I agree with you all the way!

 

[Simka]

Whilst I acknowledge … that Muslims reject the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, I do not think it follows that they worship “a god other than the God of Christians”. … Their disbelief in this doctrine can never change that immutable truth and so you could say that they are worshiping the Trinity whether they like it or not.

It might help if you asked Muslims if they accept / believe in / worship the “God of Christians”. Most would say an emphatic “No!” It is Christians who, for some reason, wish to perpetuate the myth that they and we worship the same god.

If you have the opportunity to ask a Muslim to describe and characterize their god (which we believe Mohammed created out of his own imagination, then attempted for the sake of credibility to identify with the God of Abraham), you will realize that the god they worship is incompatible with the Christian God. The two entities are mutually exclusive.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

It might help if you asked Muslims if they accept / believe in / worship the “God of Christians”. Most would say an emphatic “No!”

Is that the right question? I’m sure you’d get an even stronger negative response if you asked if they accept / believe in / worship the “God of Israel”.

What if one were to ask them, “How do you know God?” “What are some of the essentials of your understanding of God?” Who are the early fathers of your faith (before Mohammed)? “How did you come to know Jesus and recognize Him as a prophet, when He lived some 570+ years before Mohammed?” You may get some real insight beyond a dismissive rejection to a somewhat loaded question.

 

[rinnie]

It might help if you asked Muslims if they accept / believe in / worship the “God of Christians”. Most would say an emphatic “No!” It is Christians who, for some reason, wish to perpetuate the myth that they and we worship the same god.

If you have the opportunity to ask a Muslim to describe and characterize their god (which we believe Mohammed created out of his own imagination, then attempted for the sake of credibility to identify with the God of Abraham), you will realize that the god they worship is incompatible with the Christian God. The two entities are mutually exclusive.

I don’t see it that way at all, and the Church does not teach it that way at all.

The CHurch says we both worship the One True God.

The Church also acknowledges that they do not see Jesus as God.

Because Muslims cannot see the Christian God in the Holy Trinity does not mean the Christian God in the Holy Trinity is not indeed the same ONE TRUE GOD.

So do they deny the ONE TRUE GOD or do they deny that Christ is God? Seems simple enough that they do not have the fullness of the truth.

But what does them not seeing the true God in the Trinity, make the ONE TRUE GOD false?

As I have stated from the very beginning of this thread. The Christians who reject Christ in the Eucharist do not follow a false God, because they do not see the fullness of the truth.

You cannot change Truth. Truth is Truth. Rather a person cannot see it for whatever reason does not change Truth.

 

[rinnie]

Is that the right question? I’m sure you’d get an even stronger negative response if you asked if they accept / believe in / worship the “God of Israel”.

What if one were to ask them, “How do you know God?” “What are some of the essentials of your understanding of God?” Who are the early fathers of your faith? “How did you come to know Jesus and recognize Him as a prophet, when he lived some 570+ years before Mohammed?” You may get some real insight beyond a dismissive rejection to a loaded question.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

PRmerger;8924844]A+.

Now, as I stated earlier, if it furthers the dialogue I will continue to use the term “Muslim” rather than “Islam” in discussing the Church’s teaching from the Catechism…but I think this dichotomy you’ve created between Muslims, whom the Church is addressing, and Islam is a false one.

No you are mistaken; first of all the terminology that the CCC uses is Muslim, faith, Abraham. IF we stick to the CCC terminology we don’t fall into misinterpreting the CCC.

Once you enter other terms into the CCC such as Muhammad, Islam now you begin to misinterpret the CCC.

Thus far I have remained faithful to the CCC.

I have not created no dichotomy between Muslims nor their faith in Islam. I have not addressed neither. Only what the CCC teaches on Muslims professed faith.

What I draw from other posters are forcing ones own interpretation into the CCC.

One is the concept. The other are its practitioners. Can’t have one without the other.

But if that’s the semantic distinction you wish to make, so be it. :shrug

:

Thank you for that clarification; Now please allow me to clarify my position here, now that you prefer to connect Islam as being the same as Muslim. Even though the CCC is never addressing Islam.

1. The CCC names the Muslims profess their faith in Abrahams faith in God. The church describes Islam as an “Infant” compared to Judaism and Catholicism. Partly due to their professed faith in Abrahams faith of One God. Because during Abrahams time the blessed Trinity was not revealed yet.
2. Islam returns to the infant stage of the revelation of God in the faith of Abraham, when the Trinity was not yet revealed. This is the faith Muslims profess in the faith of Abraham the one creator God, this one God revealed in Abrahams faith does not change, thus we together with Muslims “holding” to Abrahams faith in One God adore God. The CCC never addressses the Muslims faith of God in Muhammad’s faith of God…
3. This infant stage of faith in God that Muslims profess in Abrahams faith reveals the one true God creator, who reveals himself in the fullness of time in Jesus Christ.

The CCC never discloses the ideologies of Muslims faith in Muhammad nor Islam. Only the Muslims professed faith in Abrahams faith in One God.

Now if you wish to divert from the CCC and discuss Islam’s idelogies of God and Muhammad’s revelations of the diety. Then we move away from the CCC.

Now that I update you. Please find a Muslim who will agree with you that Muslims “adore” the same God Christians adore. You cannot produce one. Why?

Because they profess the faith of Abraham in One God. The revelation of Jesus has not reached them yet, because “Islam” enslaves them from hearing the Word of God become flesh.

Thus it is from this stage of Muslims professed faith of Abraham’s faith in the one God that Muslims can come to the knowledge and revelation of God in the Son Jesus Christ, which the CCC expresses from all religions of the world. Beginning with the Muslims first when “these profess to HOLD to the faith of Abraham” CCC 841.

Now if you want to discuss Muhammads god in Islam when the CCC never addresses Muhammads faith professed in god. If the CCC does please show me where the CCC addresses Muhammads faith in god.

The CCC only addresses the Muslims faith in Abrahams faith in God, not Muhammad’s faith in God.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Mickey is not alone - we are trying to figure out exactly what it is you are trying to say. Suggesting there are two types of Muslims, and that’s what the CCC teaches, is a bit hard to grasp (and I’m Catholic, so I’m honestly trying to follow your argument here …).

I have only addressed the terminology of the CCC. The different views interpreting the CCC reveal two definitions of the CCC, not two different Muslims.

Simply put the CCC leaves everything out from what Muslims believe in Muhammad and Islam. The CCC establishes a relationship with Muslims and all other religions. Salvation comes to all those who acknowledge the Creator.

Beginning with Muslims first who profess to hold to the faith of Abraham. In interpreting the CCC nothing else is mentioned about Islam nor Muhammad. I have only addressed the CCC regarding the Muslims faith in Abrahams faith of God. Others are interpreting the CCC includes Islam’s god to be the same God of Christians. I have not raised arguments here on that issue, nor does the CCC raise these issues.

That is why I disagree with the personal view and interpretation of the CCC reveals that Islam and Christianity believe in the same God. When it is never addressing this issue.

Now many here are referencing this profession of faith to include everything Muhammad and Islam teaches about God, I commented that the CCC is not addressing Muhammad’s faith, but Abrahams faith in one God. thus you appear to be drawing two distinct Muslims when the CCC is only addressing one. Technically they are two groups of Muslims Shiite and Sunni, but that’s another topic.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

This I also agree with totally. But Gabriel I have always had great respect for you and your knowledge of the faith, but with all do respect you really lost me on what you have been saying lately.

But this post. Yes I agree with you all the way!

Thanks for your patience rinnie; I have been sticking to the terminology used from the CCC only.

Now I believe the blessed Virgin Mary will one day play a huge role in the conversion of Muslims, but that is never discussed in the CCC paragraphs we have been discussing.

Your opinion that we all worship the one creator in God, I agree with you. But the CCC does not address that issue in particular. The CCC specifies how Muslims adore God together with us.

For one the God of Abraham is the same God revealed in Jesus Christ. Muslims profess this faith in Abrahams faith in God. But Abrahams faith in God was not revealed by Jesus yet in the blessed trinity. Which is the Muslims professed faith of Abraham, Muslims have not recieved the revelation of God through the Son Jesus Christ. That is the difference between the God of the Muslims who “hold” to Abrahams faith in God and the God of the Christians.

The CCC has not addressed all of Islam or Muhammads faith, to be the same God of Christians. Posters are forcing this language and interpretation into the CCC text.

The text is addressing the Muslims holding too, and professing the faith in Abrahams faith in God.

The confusion arises when we are discussing items that are not in the teaching of the CCC.

 

[illusion_buster]

All I am addressing is the CCC does not state that Catholicism and Islam are the same God.

I feel the point is being missed… The INTENTION of all these religions is to worship the One True God. None of them INDENDS to worship a false god. It is the understanding of that ‘True God’ that is in error. Here is a simili…

A man father’s 3 sons. Over time they grow up but one son shows signs of paranoia. Over time this develops into anti social behaviour and later aggression. He goes to a psych who tells him his problems exist because his father abused him sexually and that he has repressed the memory and it is coming out in antisocial behaviour. The son believes this and fearfully looks on his father as a tyrant and colours his true character to suit his condition. Not only that…he also believes anyone supporting the idea of his ’ father’ as a loving parent is also the enemy. He trully believes what the phyic has said about his father. The other sons KNOW that all his brother believes is FALSE but no matter how they try to convince him of his error…their brother believes in ANOTHER FATHER. But the TRUTH is that their father is THE SAME ENTITY. Both brothers & father feel frustrated with pity for the brother/son and pray that he will be able to GET WELL and perceive the TRUTH. The father still looks on his sons with love and does all he can to bring him to the truth. One brother becomes angry and shuns the ‘sick’ brother " I’ll never speak to him again until he recants his accusations". The third brother’s pity brings him to pray for his ‘lost’ brother WHOM HE LOVES.

Which of these brother’s are obeying Jesus command?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

For me, the answer to this question is very clear.

---

**The Koran says: “**Allah forbid that he should have a son!” (Sura 4:171)

---

The Bible says: “Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.”( 1 John 2:23)

---

St John** has given us the answer….and the answer is no……the Muslims do not have the Father….because they have rejected the Son.**

---

**That is my last post on the matter. I am not going to convince anyone on the other side. And it is a certainty that no one is going change my stance. I think that it is unfortunate that Rome penned some rather ambiguous statements which have led many of the faithful to accept something that was not taught for hundreds of years beforehand. **

---

**But St John has given us a very clear answer….and a 20th century theological opinion does not obscure that answer. **

---

Thanks for the great conversation everyone.

Not ambiguous Mickey but Truthful;

You are comparing the CCC to the Muslim faith that rejects Jesus Christ in his divinity. You should know better Mickey the CCC is not addressing your personal issue of Muslims. No wonder you see two different Muslims, because you invented another Muslim that the CCC never addresses.

The Blessed Trinity was revealed yet to Abrahams faith, nor is the Trinity revealed to Muslims yet who are holding to Abrahams faith in God still in its infant stage. This is the creator God together with us they adore the one merciful God.

The CCC never addresses your Muslims who reject the blessed Trinity… Iam not saying Muslims accept the Trinity, All I have said is that the CCC is not addressing your personal issues regarding Muslims. Keepping in mind what the CCC teaches and not forcing your own interpertation of wishful thinking is not acceptable.

God bless you Mickey good to see on the boards;

 

[illusion_buster]

Please find a Muslim who will agree with you that Muslims “adore” the same God Christians adore. You cannot produce one. Why?

I sew a TV production on ‘banged up abroad’ where a male westerner was taken hostage along with an egyptian woman in the middle east by Muslim radiclists. They were blind folded & roughed around but not really harmed. There was talk of a ransome. Over night things changed and they were reluctantly handed over to the taliban. After constant sessions of torture the woman was released while the man was retained. Several times he was made to believe he would be executed only to be thrown back to his ‘cell’. In stealth of night and at great rist to his own life and that of his family…one of his abductors released him knowing he was to be executed in the morning for real by a teliban leader. When asked why he was letting him go at such risk to himself, he replied…“because I believe we are brothers under the same God”…The prisoner made his escape and lived to tell about it.

 

[rinnie]

Thanks for your patience rinnie; I have been sticking to the terminology used from the CCC only.

Now I believe the blessed Virgin Mary will one day play a huge role in the conversion of Muslims, but that is never discussed in the CCC paragraphs we have been discussing.

Your opinion that we all worship the one creator in God, I agree with you. But the CCC does not address that issue in particular. The CCC specifies how Muslims adore God together with us.

For one the God of Abraham is the same God revealed in Jesus Christ. Muslims profess this faith in Abrahams faith in God. But Abrahams faith in God was not revealed by Jesus yet in the blessed trinity. Which is the Muslims professed faith of Abraham, Muslims have not recieved the revelation of God through the Son Jesus Christ. That is the difference between the God of the Muslims who “hold” to Abrahams faith in God and the God of the Christians.

The CCC has not addressed all of Islam or Muhammads faith, to be the same God of Christians. Posters are forcing this language and interpretation into the CCC text.

The text is addressing the Muslims holding too, and professing the faith in Abrahams faith in God.

The confusion arises when we are discussing items that are not in the teaching of the CCC.

I totally agree that they do not have the complete truth of God as the Trinity. I don’t believe anyone would deny that.

As far as the teaching of Muslims, I think we can all agree also, as Pope JPll teaches, there is very LITTLE on which we agree with. Simply because they are following the teaching of a false prophet. Which I believe we have all agreed on here all along.

The Pope teaches us that while they do not have the fullness of the truth of Christ, we can find more of a common bond in the One True God. Its has to become more of what we DO have in common then what we don’t to ever become the people we need to become.

I think that when JPll has made it more of what we do have in common, people tend to believe he somehow failed and went to far in his journey to bring everyone home to Christ. And that is not what he did.

He said the CC reject nothing of what is true, but in the same token it is also our duty and we are bound to proclaim without fail CHRIST who is the way and the truth and the life. It is in Christ whom God reconciled all things to himself, and how people find the fullness of their religious life.

I think that people feel because we accept the truth they do have, it is someway makes us reject the truth we have or something? And it makes no sense.

We are all called as Catholics to make the effort to achieve understanding, to benefit everyone.

But what has bothered me the most is people claiming if they cannot see Christ in the Eucharist, then they cannot have the One True God! We cannot reject the truth they have because they cannot accept the full truth we have.

And I agree with you, many have not even begun to see the fullness of the truth, and I know that if they indeed do believe in the One Truth God as they claim, it will be the One True God who will open their eyes.

And would it not be great, if God could use us, even if a smallest of a small, part of bringing just one Person to the fullness of Christ in the One True God.

We must put the past in the past as the Pope says and move on. That is why God put us here, to spread the good news and the truth of his gospel.

If I have misunderstood you also, I apologize. I know you have much knowledge in the faith. But now its time to move on and share with others the good news.

 

[Simka]

The CHurch says we both worship the One True God.

You are obviously not talking about extensions of the church in Arab and African countries, such as Nigeria. Such contentions, if made there, would be laughable … by both Muslims and Christians!

You cannot change Truth. Truth is Truth. Rather a person cannot see it for whatever reason does not change Truth.

I agree with your statement, but it is irrelevant to the discussion. The truth is, Muslims define their own god, and their own religion – not us. The truth is, the god Muslims worship is foreign to Christians.

Muslims say they do not worship the Christian god. Why do you insist on redefining their god in Christian terms?