Not the same God?

[GaryTaylor]

I would only note that you statement is true indeed, if each of those passages are taken literally. I doubt that you are suggesting that we as Catholics do not believe that the messianic prophecies were indeed fulfilled.

I do appreciate your broader argument. This has been an interesting thread, and I still do not understand why so many believe that we as Catholics are not called to charitable understanding and respect of other faiths. This portends to life experience in the secular world, as well.

Oh no, just proposing the debate from how I believe they would, be it Orthodox Jews or Muslims. You’ve seen the senerio, I quote a Bible verse, and muslims quote a Koran verse. So forth and so on. The corruption is much deeper in the Koran, no doubt.

We just have to step outside of our own belief to see the whole picture. Not disregard any of our own beliefs. However, we must understand they also feel this strongly that they have arrived at the truth. Its a very difficult situation no doubt. And we certainly didn’t make it better in the middle-east. In fact I’d say we encouraged the insanity.

As with Catholic’s today, there seems IMO anyway to be an awakening which is happening. And also an outreach to other Christians now. In the past I believe this was proposed as far back as Pope Paul, however in truth it never occured. The 60-70’s happened, many fell away from the faith. And those who closely followed kept this silent secret, while passing it to their family, not really on a public level. 80s and 90s a change again occured with Bl JP-II and seem’s to be on track now. Christianity is having a rebirth in general Russia, Africa.

Peace

 

[Simka]

Well, yes, some of their “defining characteristics” of their god are wrong.

This has to be the epitome of arrogance! These characteristics are only “wrong” by our standards. How dare we tell them they’re wrong about THEIR faith?

While our God seeks a personal relationship with humanity, and seeks to be known above all else as a God of Love, the God whom they worship and to whom they pray seeks no such relationships. This is an accurate characteristic of their God. This is Islamic doctrine.

Our God establishes monogamy as a standard for marriage. The God they worship says it’s OK for a man to have four wives if he can support them. This is Islamic doctrine. This is an edict of their God.

These characteristics of their God and their faith are not wrong, but verifiably correct. They are fundamental to the identity of the Muslim God. Acceptance of these doctrines is part of what it means to be a Muslim. This is the God they worship. Their holy texts establish this doctrine.

The fact that it is incompatible with Christian doctrine and the Christian God means simply that they worship someone or something else!

 

[PRmerger]

This has to be the epitome of arrogance! These characteristics are only “wrong” by our standards. How dare we tell them they’re wrong about THEIR faith?

Huh?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Our God establishes monogamy as a standard for marriage. The God they worship says it’s OK for a man to have four wives if he can support them. This is Islamic doctrine. This is an edict of their God.

You are aware, perhaps, that polygamy was not unheard of in biblical Judaism?

 

[PRmerger]

Many are giving lifelong devotion, dedication, worship, obedience, homage, loyalty … many good things … in the service of an imposter.

So perhaps it might be more accurate to say you believe Muslims are doing the right thing but to the wrong god?

Because, again, you have no idea what their “reasons” are.

 

[Simka]

“Characteristics” lead to your YOUR objective truth. Not theirs or the Jews. … This is a conclusion you’ve drawn through what you believe to be the objective truth.

No, Sir, you are mistaken. It is not MY objective truth that says the Muslim god is unapproachable, and does not enter into relationships with mankind. This is Islamic doctrine. It defines a characteristic of the God they worship.

In contrast, the Christian God seeks a personal relationship with every human being and wants to be identified as a God of Limitless Love for all men. This is not MY objective truth, this is a fundamental, Biblical doctrine.

For other examples I have already given, please look back to Post #838.

Because of these observations, I maintain that the same God cannot at one and the same time satisfy all these criteria. But I’m open to learning. How would you reconcile these criteria as applying simultaneously to the One True God?

If I place three Chevys in a parking lot … though they may be different … they are all still CHEVYS. So which one is the REAL CHEVY?

All three, separate automobiles have the same fundamental defining characteristics (made by GM, labeled as Chevrolet, all of the things that validate each one as a Chev.)

But if you place a CHEV, a NISSAN and a KIA in the parking lot, about the best you could do is to say they’re all automobiles … like saying that Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all world religions. But if you’re going to go beyond that to claim that, because they share some things in common (four wheels, mirrors, steering wheel, seats, etc.) therefore they’re all the same, I’d have to disagree. Having different makers, different standards … well, their defining characteristics make them fundamentally different in so many ways.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

All three, separate automobiles have the same fundamental defining characteristics (made by GM, labeled as Chevrolet, all of the things that validate each one as a Chev.)

But if you place a CHEV, a NISSAN and a KIA in the parking lot, about the best you could do is to say they’re all automobiles … like saying that Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all world religions. But if you’re going to go beyond that to claim that, because they share some things in common (four wheels, mirrors, steering wheel, seats, etc.) therefore they’re all the same, I’d have to disagree. Having different makers, different standards … well, their defining characteristics make them fundamentally different in so many ways.

That being said and extending this analogy to its logical end, could it not be said that the Chevy, Nissan and Kia are all fundamentally capable of getting anyone from point A to point B, albeit perhaps in varying degrees of comfort, speed and convenience?

 

[Simka]

That being said and extending this analogy to its logical end, could it not be said that the Chevy, Nissan and Kia are all fundamentally capable of getting anyone from point A to point B, albeit perhaps in varying degrees of comfort, speed and convenience?

Sure; yet it’s precisely their differences that determine whether they achieve their ultimate goal.

A friend of mine, a Salvation Army pastor, surprised me with an off-the-cuff remark that “All roads lead to God.” After he had my attention, he went on to explain what he meant. Whatever road we take, and whatever vehicle we use to navigate that path, we will all of us, one day, stand before God in judgment — some for their reward, some for their punishment – but we’ll all be there.

 

[Simka]

So perhaps it might be more accurate to say you believe Muslims are doing the right thing but to the wrong god?

Because, again, you have no idea what their “reasons” are.

Any reason that leads people to worship an imposter is a wrong reason, whatever else it may be.

 

[Contarini]

This has to be the epitome of arrogance! These characteristics are only “wrong” by our standards. How dare we tell them they’re wrong about THEIR faith?

You obviously believe that they are wrong. So do I. So I will charitably assume that this is a lame attempt at irony.

There is only one truth, and there is only one God.

While our God seeks a personal relationship with humanity, and seeks to be known above all else as a God of Love, the God whom they worship and to whom they pray seeks no such relationships. This is an accurate characteristic of their God. This is Islamic doctrine.

Prove this.

As far as I can see, there’s a spectrum in these matters. It would be hard if not impossible to find Muslims who think of God in the way that a touchy-feely American evangelical would, and it might be hard (though I’m less sure about that) to find Christians with as harsh and unapproachable a view of God as that held by some Muslims. But there’s plenty of overlap.

You are very quick to make sweeping claims about Islamic doctrine, but you haven’t substantiated these claims.

Our God establishes monogamy as a standard for marriage. The God they worship says it’s OK for a man to have four wives if he can support them. This is Islamic doctrine.

Actually, the God we worship allegedly allowed polygamy too. This argument is just down right ignorant.

These characteristics of their God and their faith are not wrong, but verifiably correct.

That doesn’t make any sense. You don’t actually believe that a separate “Muslim god” exists, do you? How would one verify this, then?

And if you mean that Muslims uniformly believe that God doesn’t seek a relationship with humans–well, as I said, you’re very far from substantiating this claim.

To repeat: there is only one God. You can hold more or less true ideas about God, but there is no other God to have ideas about.

Edwin

 

[Simka]

There is only one truth, and there is only one God.

Yes, I agree with you. All other objects of worship that people have are false.

But people do worship false gods.

Some exist only in people’s imagination; other beings are real, imposters who deceive people into believing lies. Making a statement that “I and my people worship the One True God” does not make it so. It may serve only to show the magnitude of the deception.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Simka;8931939]Mohammad’s god is unapproachable. He does not enter into relationship with mankind (and has no interest in doing so).

The God of Abraham was also feared in like manner.
Deuteronomy 18: 16…“Let us not again hear the voice of the Lord, our God, nor see this great fire any more, lest we die”…

God revealed no one goes to the Father except through Jesus Christ. But the Muslims do not have this personal revelation of God in the Son yet, they profess Abrahams faith in God, because man alone can never approach God lest man dies.

In contrast, the greatest defining characteristic of the Christian God is his limitless love for every person, and his desire for a personal relationship with each and every one

.

You are comparing God revealed in the fullness of time, not the faith of Abraham in One God, which the Muslims profess too.

Muslims are taught that Allah is a god of whimsy. Without forethought and without reason he decrees that some will be happy and others not; that some will have good fortune and others not. The faithfulness or obedience of followers is irrelevant to his decrees. Whatever happens in one’s life, it is the will of Allah.

The Muslim theology of God grant it is in it’s infant stage “Abrahams faith”. NO one can define God. But all Muslims, Jews and Christians believe that God’s will exist.

(So if I become angry with my neighbor and attack and kill him, his widow must understand that it was Allah’s will that I attack, and it was Allah’s will that her husband die.) Such behavior is anathema to the Christian God.

True in the old covenant demanded a life when it was broken according to God’s will. Your example welcomes in Arab secular laws justified by Islam, which mirrors Judaism Abrahams God in the old covenant,which mixed religion with secular powers.

They read that Allah is merciful and forgiving, but no one has any assurance that Allah will be merciful or forgiving to him personally … except for the one who receives the blessings of the afterlife guaranteed through martyrdom.

You rightly paint a picutre here of Islam believing in God without a covenant relationship.

This covenant relationship for sure is lacking in Islam, thus what you have been addressing is one’s interpretation of Islam. What is difficult is that Muslim secular authorities use Islam teachings to justify their actions from different circumstances and from different Arab custom practices and cultural living standards, not all interpret Islam the same, because “all of Islam” do not have no one “authority” existing to reveal to them across the board, what is right and what is wrong from Islam.

The Christian God is a strong advocate of monogamy. Allah permitted and encouraged Mohammad to take as many wives as he might desire, even from among his own blood relations.

Abraham took on another wife, Moses granted them a divorce, Solomon took on 300 wives and 700 concubines, before Jesus raised Marriage to a sacramental covenant and returned Marriage back to when God originally created for man and woman. But the Muslims are not living in the New Covenant relationship with God, they profess faith in Abrahams one God before the Covenants are revealed.

Apart from disciplines, theological thinking which derives from cultural understandings of God. You have not proven that the God which the Muslims profess is different from the God of Abrahams faith as being One God and Creator.

Muslims theology of God does not graduate past God being creator. What you present is the view Muslims have taken against and refuse to accept Christian teachings and revelations of God through Jesus Christ.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Actually, the God we worship allegedly allowed polygamy too. This argument is just down right ignorant.

I had posted earlier on this point - polygamy was not unknown in biblical Judaism, and there are scriptural references alluding to that fact (e.g. Genesis 4:19 / Exodus 21:10 / Deuteronomy 21:15, etc.).

 

[Simka]

Originally Posted by Contarini …
Actually, the God we worship allegedly allowed polygamy too. This argument is just down right ignorant.

I had posted earlier on this point - polygamy was not unknown in biblical Judaism, and there are scriptural references alluding to that fact (e.g. Genesis 4:19 / Exodus 21:10 / Deuteronomy 21:15, etc.).

Oh, I concede that “polygamy was not unknown”, and that the God we worship allowed it. Yes, there was a tolerance of polygamy … but that’s a far cry from an overt endorsement and encouragement of it as standard practice. Or do you see no difference in these points of view?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Oh, I concede that “polygamy was not unknown”, and that the God we worship allowed it. Yes, there was a tolerance of polygamy … but that’s a far cry from an overt endorsement and encouragement of it as standard practice. Or do you see no difference in these points of view?

I cannot speak for Contarini. As for me, I can certainly see a difference as clarified, but that is not what you originally asserted based on an incorrect factual statement.

I will assume that your perspective may be different than that of Catholics who may certainly not agree with Muslims on a fair number of fundamental tenets of Faith, yet we still hold open the possibility that the Muslim understanding of God is reconcilable with our own, if they chose to accept the Truth. Of course, there are barriers preventing them from having such opportunity, including the discipline under which they practice their faith.

I could see your very directed arguments applying directly to Mohammed if he were alive today, but hundreds of generations have passed since his interpretation of faith and the Divine Nature was first preached. We as Catholics understand that “cradle” Muslims of the current generation received faith in God in a flawed manner, through no fault of their own. The possibility of salvation thus exists, and we seek elements of commonality to help bridge the gap in ecumenical dialogue, without ever sacrificing our own beliefs.

 

[rinnie]

You are correct, of course … my mistake.

Many are giving lifelong devotion, dedication, worship, obedience, homage, loyalty … many good things … in the service of an imposter.

I have to ask this, Only because I truly do not know the answer to this. This is how we learn!

Okat here is the question, is this the teaching of your Church?

 

[rinnie]

On the contrary, my contention is that Muslims adore another being they falsely identify as the One True God. That devoted adoration and worship, however sincere, directed toward someone or something else, is still sin in the eyes of the One True God (notwithstanding C.S. Lewis).

As I have recently substantiated, their defining characteristics of their god preclude the possibility that he and the Christian God are one and the same identity.

If I may, the defining characteristics would be of course the Trinity? Correct?

Okay if I am indeed correct in comming to this conclusion where to you put the Jews?

 

[Simka]

Quote:
These characteristics of their God and their faith are not wrong, but verifiably correct.

That doesn’t make any sense. You don’t actually believe that a separate “Muslim god” exists, do you?

I apologize if my striving for brevity left my intent unclear. Let me try to be more explicit on this one point.

There are aspects of Muslim faith and belief which Christians do not accept as truth. And so we call them “wrong” by Christian standards. By Muslims do not judge their faith by Christian standards. The characteristics I identified in the subject post are correct reflections and interpretations of Islamic teaching, and they contribute to defining and describing the object of Muslim worship. These are a few of the characteristics that Muslims attribute to the entity that they worship as their God.

Of course, if you find a friendly group willing to listen to you, you may have opportunity to share with them something you consider wrong in their belief concerning the One True God … and even today you will likely get the same response I did when I first explored that approach many years ago. It did not lead to a discussion of who had the better understanding of God. I was told plainly, “That’s your god, not ours. We worship our God, not yours.”

So, yes, there is an entity separate and distinct from the Christian God, whom Muslims revere as their God, and to whom they refer as the God of Abraham.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Quote:
These characteristics of their God and their faith are not wrong, but verifiably correct.

I apologize if my striving for brevity left my intent unclear. Let me try to be more explicit on this one point.

There are aspects of Muslim faith and belief which Christians do not accept as truth. And so we call them “wrong” by Christian standards. By Muslims do not judge their faith by Christian standards. The characteristics I identified in the subject post are correct reflections and interpretations of Islamic teaching, and they contribute to defining and describing the object of Muslim worship. These are a few of the characteristics that Muslims attribute to the entity that they worship as their God.

Of course, if you find a friendly group willing to listen to you, you may have opportunity to share with them something you consider wrong in their belief concerning the One True God … and even today you will likely get the same response I did when I first explored that approach many years ago. It did not lead to a discussion of who had the better understanding of God. I was told plainly, “That’s your god, not ours. We worship our God, not yours.”

So, yes, there is an entity separate and distinct from the Christian God, whom Muslims revere as their God, and to whom they refer as the God of Abraham.

Jesus sought out the lost sheep from which false shepherds kept them from him. These simple ones heard Jesus call them by name and they followed Him.

We pray that the little ones in Islam will also hear Jesus call them out.

What is your opinion on when and how Muslims will come to hear and learn the true gospel of Jesus Christ? What will it take for this to happen?

 

[rinnie]

Quote:
These characteristics of their God and their faith are not wrong, but verifiably correct.

I apologize if my striving for brevity left my intent unclear. Let me try to be more explicit on this one point.

There are aspects of Muslim faith and belief which Christians do not accept as truth. And so we call them “wrong” by Christian standards. By Muslims do not judge their faith by Christian standards. The characteristics I identified in the subject post are correct reflections and interpretations of Islamic teaching, and they contribute to defining and describing the object of Muslim worship. These are a few of the characteristics that Muslims attribute to the entity that they worship as their God.

Of course, if you find a friendly group willing to listen to you, you may have opportunity to share with them something you consider wrong in their belief concerning the One True God … and even today you will likely get the same response I did when I first explored that approach many years ago. It did not lead to a discussion of who had the better understanding of God. I was told plainly, “That’s your god, not ours. We worship our God, not yours.”

So, yes, there is an entity separate and distinct from the Christian God, whom Muslims revere as their God, and to whom they refer as the God of Abraham.

Wow, so then it would be fair for me to assume you are saying there are 2 Gods of Abraham.

We have one and they have the other, Is this what you are saying? So Abraham had 2 Gods, the Muslim one, and the Christian one