Not the same God?

[ByzCathCantor]

Despite whatever internal squabbles we may engage in, let us never forget that the Church exists for those who are not yet its members. God has not given up on them; the Holy Spirit is still as active as ever, drawing all people to Christ. If we are not disciples making disciples, we are not serving our Lord according to the commission He left us.

Amen!

In Eastern tradition, as a preparation for Great Lent, we focus on the gospel lesson of the parable of the Prodigal Son (just this past Sunday for those on the New Calendar). Recall how the son, repentantly in great humility and hoping to be received as a servant, returned to his father’s house after squandering his earthly inheritance. He was received with great joy by the father, for his son was lost, but was now found. We are also reminded that the elder son, who remained a faithful ward of his father’s estate, continued to share in his father’s wealth at all times and was no less blessed.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Despite whatever internal squabbles we may engage in, let us never forget that the Church exists for those who are not yet its members. God has not given up on them; the Holy Spirit is still as active as ever, drawing all people to Christ. If we are not disciples making disciples, we are not serving our Lord according to the commission He left us.

This is more interesting to me. Here’s the fustration I can’t comprehend. I’m not looking at the mechanical aspects of Islam or Christianity for that matter. For no doubt we see the glaring difference. Same as with Judaism.

However, when I think of Islam there’s no getting around that prayer 5X daily. Here I would have to conclude that this is mechanics, or there has to be an actual comtemplation.

Its through this contemplation which one connects with God. Contemplation is a response to a call: a call from HIM, who speaks in everthing that is, and who most of all speaks in the depths of our being, for in truth we are words of HIS. Yet we are words that are meant tp respond to HIM. Contenplation through prayer probes this Reailty, for that is Reality.

How this coincides with prayer 5X daily and then equates to a state inconsistant with the Kingdom of God is within us, which and then projects outward in Love? Here is where I find this something illusive.

I don’t know the answer, opposite could only be that those who do have an open mind in seeking the true God, even in Islam, without being subject to their own prison, are somehow able to transend this to Christ.

I fail to see how one can enter into contemplative prayer 5X daily and not connect with God. In fact I would think it would be impossible. Even seeking God imperfectly.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I fail to see how one can enter into contemplative prayer 5X daily and not connect with God. In fact I would think it would be impossible. Even seeking God imperfectly.

Did the Pharisees in Jesus’ day recognize and accept Him as the Christ? Actually, they rejected him in every way, all while praying and fasting in accordance with the letter of the Law.

Just a thought …

 

[GaryTaylor]

Did the Pharisees in Jesus’ day recognize and accept Him as the Christ? Actually, they rejected him in every way, all while praying and fasting in accordance with the letter of the Law.

Just a thought …

Well, they were confronted by the living objective Truth standing in front of them. Somehow, amazing at it may seem, they didn’t see this. Imprisoned by the narrow confines on their own minds, combined with a preconcived notion of how God would arrive as the messiah? Do not know.

You would think though that one who could free themselves from this process in contemplation would be able to find truth. Not sure how it would work. Perhaps to think that the Kingdom of God is now known on earth and one must accept this in their own mind, first, is another possibility. Course this would also be in line with scripture.

Interesting though. Even to view from another aspect of Islam alone without interference, I have no doubt would destroy itself from within. How long, would be the only question.

 

[Simka]

This is more interesting to me. Here’s the fustration I can’t comprehend. …

However, when I think of Islam there’s no getting around that prayer 5X daily. Here I would have to conclude that this is mechanics, or there has to be an actual comtemplation.

Its through this contemplation which one connects with God. Contemplation is a response to a call: a call from HIM, who speaks in everthing that is, and who most of all speaks in the depths of our being, for in truth we are words of HIS. Yet we are words that are meant tp respond to HIM. Contenplation through prayer probes this Reailty, for that is Reality.

How this coincides with prayer 5X daily and then equates to a state inconsistant with the Kingdom of God is within us, which and then projects outward in Love? Here is where I find this something illusive.

I don’t know the answer, opposite could only be that those who do have an open mind in seeking the true God, even in Islam, without being subject to their own prison, are somehow able to transend this to Christ.

I fail to see how one can enter into contemplative prayer 5X daily and not connect with God. In fact I would think it would be impossible. Even seeking God imperfectly.

My experience is that Muslims pray 5X daily simply because they are commanded to pray. They say the prayers they are commanded to say, like a liturgy. And if they already have in their hearts and minds a determination of the god to whom they’re praying (with the same concentration and focus with which Nebuchadnezzar prayed to his false gods, for example) it is not an unreasonable assumption that those prayers never reach the ear of God.

On the other hand, if anyone’s heart is open to the ministry of the Holy Spirit, anything can happen!

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Even to view from another aspect of Islam alone without interference, I have no doubt would destroy itself from within. How long, would be the only question.

An interesting thought. A house cannot stand for long without a firm foundation.

 

[GaryTaylor]

My experience is that Muslims pray 5X daily simply because they are commanded to pray. They say the prayers they are commanded to say, like a liturgy. And if they already have in their hearts and minds a determination of the god to whom they’re praying (with the same concentration and focus with which Nebuchadnezzar prayed to his false gods, for example) it is not an unreasonable assumption that those prayers never reach the ear of God.

On the other hand, if anyone’s heart is open to the ministry of the Holy Spirit, anything can happen!

Right the personal relation with the Lord is non-existant. So they are praying not only to what they believe in their mind to be God, but also a deity very far off from. Here lacks the understanding of a personal relationship with the Lord. and that the Kingdon of God is within us, comsumes us in His love, and projects outward, to convert others.

I find it all amazing in the sense we see Islamic women perish in the effort to save a Christian from persecution, and though rare, other similar situations. So here, that real connection in Love and Compassion which by large is absent in Islam, we see by chance happen. Or out of the clear blue a muslim converts through, I would assume contemplating on Christ?

 

[GaryTaylor]

An interesting thought. A house cannot stand for long without a firm foundation.

Succeeding generations are not correcting the errors which preceeded. In fact they implore them, which leads them back to that 700-AD state of being. Unfortunate, the problem is for example in Syria now. They will without hesitation ask for outside help, beg for it…etc, accept it, and then proceed immediately back to a even more barbaric state. Then, not only that but being burning US flags and condemning the Jews and Christians. Profound I would say. I would like to think I would cherish freedom once lost and then found.

 

[GaryTaylor]

So does the God of the Universe bring peace on earth?

Mind you its never existed on earth. In fact in the recorded history of mankind, a war has occured every 2-years. Never has there been a period of peace on earth. And the threat of nuclear war looms even greater today than ever.

Only possible solution I see is the continued growth of Christianity in Russia, and a united effort with the USA-West. Course Obama and Vladimir would have to go first.

 

[Simka]

Right the personal relation with the Lord is non-existant. So they are praying not only to what they believe in their mind to be God, but also a deity very far off from. Here lacks the understanding of a personal relationship with the Lord. and that the Kingdon of God is within us, comsumes us in His love, and projects outward, to convert others.

I find it all amazing in the sense we see Islamic women perish in the effort to save a Christian from persecution, and though rare, other similar situations. So here, that real connection in Love and Compassion which by large is absent in Islam, we see by chance happen. Or out of the clear blue a muslim converts through, I would assume contemplating on Christ?

Most likely prompted by some specific interaction with a Christian whom the Muslim has come to know on a personal level, his thoughts may turn to curiosity and wonder; and his prayer may, for the first time in his life, be directed to the One who will reveal to him ultimate Truth.

Seeing a Muslim welcome Christ into his life is an AMAZING experience!

 

[GaryTaylor]

Most likely prompted by some specific interaction with a Christian whom the Muslim has come to know on a personal level, his thoughts may turn to curiosity and wonder; and his prayer may, for the first time in his life, be directed to the One who will reveal to him ultimate Truth.

Seeing a Muslim welcome Christ into his life is an AMAZING experience!

Oh no doubt, anyone really. I use see that Glow on the Sisters as a kid in grammer school. And I use to think, there is just no way, they must be faking it. Amazing how the Lord works though.

And what will God do with the Jews? Think he abandoned them? Or you think He’ll save them in the end? Not looking good at the moment I must say

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Unfortunate, the problem is for example in Syria now.

The situation in Syria is indeed troubling. We pray for Catholics and Christians there and throughout the Middle East who suffer in such troubled times and circumstances.

I’d urge all to read the recent statements of Melkite Catholic Patriarch Gregorios III.

asianews.it/news-en/Gregorios-III-Laham-appeals-to-Europe-for-compromise-in-Syria-23909.html

 

[GaryTaylor]

The situation in Syria is indeed troubling. We pray for Catholics and Christians there and throughout the Middle East who suffer in such troubled times and circumstances.

I’d urge all to read the recent statements of Melkite Catholic Patriarch Gregorios III.

asianews.it/news-en/Gregorios-III-Laham-appeals-to-Europe-for-compromise-in-Syria-23909.html

He has an accute vision of the Truth IMHO.

I pray for all them, and the level of faith in Christ they have when faced with walking the walk, instead of talking the talk.

Same with the Copts and others. True Martyrs of Christ. When you consider man has an automatic fight or flight response wired into him. You certainly have to walk in the Light to uphold this kind of Faith.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

So perhaps to get this one back to the topic at hand, yet relate it to some of the more recent posts, does anyone believe that Islam will prevail throughout the Middle East and that Christianity will become extinct in that part of the world?

 

[Mickey]

does anyone believe that Islam will prevail throughout the Middle East and that Christianity will become extinct in that part of the world?

I think extinction is not an option…there will always be at least a remnant. But there will be terrible persecution.

2 Tim 3:12-15
And all that will live godly in Christ Jesus, shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall grow worse and worse: erring, and driving into error. But continue thou in those things which thou hast learned, and which have been committed to thee: knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And because from thy infancy thou hast known the holy scriptures, which can instruct thee to salvation, by the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Simka;8941093]The problem is that people do not all mean the same thing when they say they believe in “the God of Abraham”. We all acknowledge that the “God of Abraham” is the one True God, the Creator, but if the words “God of Abraham” mean something different to some people than they do to us (Christians), then we ought to ascertain what they DO mean!

That is correct “we ought to ascertain what they Do mean”.

The CCC does no different than what St.Paul does at Athens recorded in the book of acts.

St.Paul speaks to the Athenians Acts 17:22-26

St.Paul discovered an altar inscribed To the unknown God…"What therefore you unknowingly worship, I proclaim to you the God who made the world and all that is in it, the Lord of heaven and earth…

The CCC addresses this same circumstance to the Muslims who profess faith in Abrahams God as one God creator. This same One God creator whom the Muslims faith profess in the God of Abrahams together with “us” we adore “stop”. No need to go any further than this from what Paul and the CCC teaches to those whom proclaim to worship God in the creator.

It is from here when God is acknowledged as one God creator, when St.Paul and the Church militant find common ground in order to proclaim the different apocolyptic characteristics and moralty of God.

Notice from the conclusion of Acts. From St.Paul’s discourse many of the learned Athenians “Scoffed at Paul” regarding the resurrection, just as Muslims do to the Catholic Church, yet there are some who are willing to hear more, yet Islam enslaves Muslims from hearing the gospel of Jesus, and yet some did hear St.Paul and became believers.

What you and Mickey are doing is placing the horse ahead of the cart. When you reveal after what is already understood in different revelations of God, before starting as St.Paul does and the CCC does, when all Jew, Muslims, Christians believe in One God who created all.

After this common ground when all believe in One God creator adoring. We can move on from here as you said "then we ought to ascertain what they DO mean!

Now you nor Mickey have proven that the Creator God, is different from Abrahams God, Muslims professed faith in Abrahams God, and Christians God being a different creator in one God.

You place the horse before the cart, when you begin revealing our differences in revelations of God. Which the CCC never addresses “adoring” Muhammads god, nor Islams god. Only faith in the creator God is the only characteristic of God that the CCC is addressing as “adoring”.

If you cannot prove that the creator God whom the Muslims profess faith in Abrahams God is different from the Christians God whom believe as One God is creator? Then this one Creator God we adore together.

The different revelations of God which you appeal too, come after the horse is attached to the cart.

Your arguments are not invalid per say, I am just saying your arguments are not in the order to which St. Paul and the CCC places them.

St.Paul and the CCC places the Church militant in a position so as to evangelize those who worship the creator God unknowingly.

Peace be with you

 

[Mickey]

Now you nor Mickey have proven that the Creator God, is different from Abrahams God, Muslims professed faith in Abrahams God, and Christians God being a different creator in one God.

I will reiterate once more…the Creator is Jesus Christ…and they deny Him.

Simka and I have proved the point time and time again…from Scripture and Tradition. It is you who have been unable to prove that the Muslims somehow worship the same God as the Christians (frankly, I find it quite odd that you would attempt to defend such a position).

The Muslims do not worship the Triune God.
The Koran does not recognize the Triune God.
They even claim that Abraham was a Muslim.

 

[Portrait]

Dearly beloved friends,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Since there is a strong likelihood that the thread will be closed very shortly, now that we are fast approaching 1, 000 posts, I will now take my leave as I do not think that I can add anything further to the discussion in addition to what I have already said, dear friends. Thus it only remains for me to thank all you for a riveting and charitable discussion and to say that I have learned a great deal since joining the thread in late November 2011 - I think I could probably give a lecture on the O.T. canon of Sacred Scripture now!

As it is my custom to take a breather from the boards at weekends, may I just tke this opportunity to wish all contributors to this jolly splendid thread an enjoyable weekend, whatever you plan to do.

Blessings be upon you and may the peace of God be yours, now and always.

Warmest good wishes and prayers,

Portrait:tiphat:

Pax

 

[Mickey]

Dearly beloved friends,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Since there is a strong likelihood that the thread will be closed very shortly, now that we are fast approaching 1, 000 posts, I will now take my leave as I do not think that I can add anything further to the discussion in addition to what I have already said, dear friends. Thus it only remains for me to thank all you for a riveting and charitable discussion and to say that I have learned a great deal since joining the thread in late November 2011 - I think I could probably give a lecture on the O.T. canon of Sacred Scripture now!

As it is my custom to take a breather from the boards at weekends, may I just tke this opportunity to wish all contributors to this jolly splendid thread an enjoyable weekend, whatever you plan to do.

Blessings be upon you and may the peace of God be yours, now and always.

Warmest good wishes and prayers,

Same to you my brother in Christ. It is also my custom to take a very long breather during the season of Great Lent. If our paths do not cross before then (Lent starts one week later for us)…I would like to wish you a fruitful Lenten season and a blessed and glorious Pascha.

Forgiveness Sunday is fast approaching for the Holy Orthodox Church and as is our tradition, I would like to ask your forgiveness if I have ever offended you in any way.

Peace and prayers,
Mickey

 

[GaryTaylor]

Dearly beloved friends,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Since there is a strong likelihood that the thread will be closed very shortly, now that we are fast approaching 1, 000 posts, I will now take my leave as I do not think that I can add anything further to the discussion in addition to what I have already said, dear friends. Thus it only remains for me to thank all you for a riveting and charitable discussion and to say that I have learned a great deal since joining the thread in late November 2011 - I think I could probably give a lecture on the O.T. canon of Sacred Scripture now!

As it is my custom to take a breather from the boards at weekends, may I just tke this opportunity to wish all contributors to this jolly splendid thread an enjoyable weekend, whatever you plan to do.

Blessings be upon you and may the peace of God be yours, now and always.

Warmest good wishes and prayers,

Portrait:tiphat:

Pax

Peace…:tiphat: