Not the same God?

[Gabriel_of_12]

Mickey;8942241]I will reiterate once more…the Creator is Jesus Christ…and they deny Him.

You did not know this until God graced you with the Holy Spirit. Abraham did not know this because Jesus was not born yet too reveal it through the Holy Spirit. Besides Abraham is the only one who saw and believed when he alone placed Isaac for sacrifice.

Muslims believe it was Ishmael? But these different revelations moves us away from One God being creator.

Mulsims do not know this because they have not been graced with the Holy Spirit who teaches us this revelation of God.

What is believed and revealed is that One God is creator when we pause here and contemplate this, it reveals we are all of the same stock before God as the CCC puts it.

Simka and I have proved the point time and time again…from Scripture and Tradition.

What have you proven? That Christians revelations of God our creator are different from the revelations of Muslims God professed in faith in Abrahams God? You have not proven their are two different One God’s as creator. You only refute our differences of revelations of God,

It is you who have been unable to prove that the Muslims somehow worship the same God as the Christians (frankly, I find it quite odd that you would attempt to defend such a position).

The CCC nor I ever said anything about worshipping the same God. The proof is that God is one Creator whom we adore with Abraham and the one Creator God Muslims profess to be the God of Abraham. Nothing more need to be added to my mouth nor the teachings revealed from the CCC.

Now we can go on to reveal our differences and how one denies the other’s position on the revelation of God. And I trust you and I will find no disagreement.

The only position I defend is that all the religions who profess that One God is creator allows window of opportunity to bring the gospel of Jesus Christ beginning with Abrahams faith in One God creator who later reveals himself in the only begotten Son Jesus Christ.

The Muslims do not worship the Triune God.
The Koran does not recognize the Triune God.
They even claim that Abraham was a Muslim

.

Abraham worship the one Creator God

Muslims profess faith in Abrahams one Creator God

NO One Christian here is claiming faith in the god of the Koran

Christians worship the one Creator God in whom Abraham believed.

Was Abraham ever a Jew?

 

[Simka]

That is correct “we ought to ascertain what they Do mean”.

Now you nor Mickey have proven that the Creator God, is different from Abrahams God

Of course not. I would not make such a claim. Yes, we all understand that the REAL God of Abraham is the one True God. He is the Creator God. But there is still a major difference we need to understand, Gabriel.

If you cannot prove that the creator God whom the Muslims profess faith in Abrahams God is different from the Christians God whom believe as One God is creator? Then this one Creator God we adore together.

When Muslims refer to “the God of Abraham” they’re using the right words, but THEY DO NOT MEAN the God who has been revealed to us in Scripture as the “God of Abraham”.

On the contrary, they mean the god who was revealed to Mohammad 600 years after Christ. They do not claim he is the same as the Christian God. In fact, they reject that outright! They tell us we are wrong! The confusion arises because Mohammad also named his innovative creation “the God of Abraham” and so we naively and mistakenly conclude that he and all his followers mean the God whom we know by that same name. They do not – and they themselves say so!

Their error is not simply uninformed oversight, but much worse than that. They are not uniformed. They have made a conscious, intentional choice to reject the God of Abraham as the Bible presents Him. They deny that this is the God they worship! Instead they insist on giving all their worship and obedience to a substitute … Mohammad’s god … who is not the REAL “God of Abraham”, but a revisionist impersonator going by the same name.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Please do not resort to name calling. I have not called you ignorant.

Forgive me Mickey, I was not calling you personally Ignorant, I was referencing your argument to be ignorant of the discussion that Jesus had not been born of the flesh in Abrahams time. Please accept my apologies

I have the utmost respect for your faith and posts here.

I will conclude that I take offense when you claim Catholics claim to worship the same God of Muslims entirely. When you and I including Muslims know these characteristics and morality of God reveal an entirely different revelation, denial and unrevealed God. Except that God is one Creator.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

When Muslims refer to “the God of Abraham” they’re using the right words, but THEY DO NOT MEAN the God who has been revealed to us in Scripture as the "God of Abraham

 

[GaryTaylor]

The CCC does not reference any teachings from Islam, or Muhammad’s faith in God, to which you describe Muslims take from. The Muslims profess faith in the One Creator God of Abraham is what the CCC addresses. Nothing else.

After this one profession of One God creator, Islam takes on a different form of revelation of Abrahams revelations of God who reveals himself in Jesus Christ.

Right, and to gain the deeper undertstanding as to Islam/Muhammad the Catholic Enyclopedia on-line goes into detail.

History in this respect hasn’t really changed in over a 1000-years. From 700 foward the issues with Islam and Christianity have been a constant. From Rome to all the rest, right till today.

Converstion with Islam has never happened, anywhere that I know of on a large scale?

 

[Mickey]

Abraham did not know this

He knew of the Trinity…it did not matter that the Word had not yet been born in the Flesh. Besides…Muslims today know about Jesus Christ in the Flesh…and they reject Him.

What have you proven?

I have proven that:

1. The God of Abraham is the Triune God.
2. Muslims reject the Triune God
3. Therefore Muslim do not worship the God of Abraham.

The CCC nor I ever said anything about worshipping the same God.

Huh? This is what you have been saying for hundreds of posts now!

Abraham worship the one Creator God

Yes. The Triune God.

Muslims profess faith in Abrahams one Creator God

No. They profess faith in something other than the Triune God…intentionally and knowingly.

Christians worship the one Creator God in whom Abraham believed.

Yes. The Triune God.

Was Abraham ever a Jew?

He was a Chaldean…I think. But he most certainly was not a Muslim.

 

[Mickey]

I will conclude that I take offense when you claim Catholics claim to worship the same God of Muslims entirely.

Entirely?

 

[Mickey]

When Muslims refer to “the God of Abraham” they’re using the right words, but THEY DO NOT MEAN the God who has been revealed to us in Scripture as the “God of Abraham”.

Indeed.

 

[Mickey]

They do not claim he is the same as the Christian God. In fact, they reject that outright! They tell us we are wrong! The confusion arises because Mohammad also named his innovative creation “the God of Abraham” and so we naively and mistakenly conclude that he and all his followers mean the God whom we know by that same name. They do not – and they themselves say so!

Correct.

Their error is not simply uninformed oversight, but much worse than that. They are not uniformed. They have made a conscious, intentional choice to reject the God of Abraham as the Bible presents Him. They deny that this is the God they worship! Instead they insist on giving all their worship and obedience to a substitute … Mohammad’s god … who is not the REAL “God of Abraham”, but a revisionist impersonator going by the same name.

Yes!

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Mickey;8942602]He knew of the Trinity…it did not matter that the Word had not yet been born in the Flesh. Besides…Muslims today know about Jesus Christ in the Flesh…and they reject Him.
I have proven that:

Please note Mickey, Let’s place Abraham, a Muslim and a Christian all standing together in one place. Abraham states there is only One God who creates.

The Muslim states I agree with Abraham that there is only one God who creates.

The Christian states “amen” there is only one God who creates.

From there each one leaves this place of acknowlegment of One God Creator.

Abraham’s faith move foward through the covenants when the fullness of time arrives for God’s Son to become flesh and reveals all that Abrahams faith saw and believed God comes into fulfillment and made present in time in the same faith of the Christian.

Then 8OO years later comes along after the fullness of time revealed the Blessed Trinity. The Muslim who knows of Abraham and the prophets, and hears about Jesus. But concludes that the One God Muslims profess in Abrahams faith as the one God Creator, revealed to the Muslim that his god has taken on different Characteristics and morality “other than” that was revealed to Abraham and the Christian God.

It is from this first revelation of God being the one and only God who creates the CCC agrees as the God we adore.

After this revelation of God being one Creator, Abrahams God reveals more in the covenants to conclude and preside in Jesus Christ.

Muslims deny these covenant revelations of God from Abraham fullfilled in Jesus Christ.

Peace be with you Mickey

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

GaryTaylor;8942566]Right, and to gain the deeper undertstanding as to Islam/Muhammad the Catholic Enyclopedia on-line goes into detail.

Good point GaryTaylor.

There is a distinction drawn from the CCC which prescibes only to the profession of the Muslim’s faith in Abrahams faith one God Creator. Separated from what Islam teaches about its god, and what Muhammad reveals about his god.

Converstion with Islam has never happened, anywhere that I know of on a large scale?

This is true, but just as St.Paul’s converts from Athens were few in number, so has it been by Muslims who escape the throngs of Islam’s laws of bondage who have been few in number become free to hear the Gospel of Jesus Truthfully and have converted to Catholicism. Many Muslims have heard of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and await for another day…to hear more, still others mock the Church’s teaching of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ, just as they mocked Paul’s revelation of the resurrection from Athens.

 

[Mickey]

Please note Mickey, Let’s place Abraham, a Muslim and a Christian all standing together in one place. Abraham states there is only One God who creates.

The Muslim states I agree with Abraham that there is only one God who creates.

The Christian states “amen” there is only one God who creates.

Please note Gabriel. Let’s place Abraham, a Muslim, and a Christian in the same room. Abraham states that there is one God…Father, Son, and Holy Spirit…Triune…One in essence and undivided. The Christian says , “Amen”.

The Muslim says, “No way.”

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Please note Gabriel. Let’s place Abraham, a Muslim, and a Christian in the same room. Abraham states that there is one God…Father, Son, and Holy Spirit…Triune…One in essence and undivided. The Christian says , “Amen”.

The Muslim says, “No way.”

Then either you or Muslims are lying?

Because the Muslims profess faith in Abrahams faith of One God creator. Moving apart from this one aspect of the Muslims profession of faith is not discussing the subject of Abrahams God one Creator.

 

[Mickey]

Because the Muslims profess faith in Abrahams faith of One God creator.

They might say this…but they reject the Triune God…so in reality…they are not worshipping the God of Abraham.

I might say that the sky is falling…but that doesn’t make it so.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Mickey;8942985]They might say this…but they reject the Triune God…so in reality…they are not worshipping the God of Abraham

.

I agree with you. They reject Abrahams God revealed in Christianity. But “profess” the same God of Abrahams as being the one God creator.

From which all of humanity are of the same stock of one God Creator. Whether religions accept this from Abrahams faith or not.

 

[Mickey]

They reject Abrahams God revealed in Christianity.

And hence…they are rejecting the God of Abraham. Case closed.

Whether religions accept this from Abrahams faith or not.

We were all given free will to either accept the true God…the Triune God…or reject Him.

Muslims have consciously, intentionally, and by their own free will…chosen to reject the Triune God. Therefore they are not worshipping the God of Abraham.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Congrads guys, ya made over the 1000 mark.
I’ll be nice and let it open until tomorrow morning.
So sum up your final remarks and lets not end thread on a low note,

 

[Simka]

the Muslims profess faith in Abrahams faith of One God creator. Moving apart from this one aspect of the Muslims profession of faith is not discussing the subject of Abrahams God one Creator.

Yes, Gabriel, Muslims and Christians alike profess faith in Abraham’s faith of One God Creator. In principle we are agreed … or so it would seem.

The difference is in practice. A Muslim does not mean what you mean, when you use those same words. You cannot hear him say those words, and pretend it is the same thing as a Christian saying the same words.

When you press a Muslim for more detail, what he reveals is this: the faith he ACTUALLY professes is NOT “faith in Abrahams faith of One God Creator” but more correctly it is MOHAMMAD’S DISTORTION of Abraham’s faith of One God Creator. But MOHAMMAD’S DISTORTION is not the same as the true faith of Abraham. They are VERY DIFFERENT things, to the point of being irreconcilable, one with the other. If one is right, the other is wrong. One is an impersonator using the other’s name.

To put it another way, the Muslim believes in Mohammad’s truth. But Mohammad’s “truth” is a lie.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

And hence…they are rejecting the God of Abraham. Case closed.
We were all given free will to either accept the true God…the Triune God…or reject Him.

Muslims have consciously, intentionally, and by their own free will…chosen to reject the Triune God. Therefore they are not worshipping the God of Abraham.

Thanks “Sheriff” Eric

Agreed Muslims are rejecting the God of Abraham revealed, fulfilled in Christianity.

Muslims profess faith in the God of Abraham’s “FAITH” as being the One Creator God.

Before Jesus, The chosen people of God worshipped the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob in one Creator God.

The Muslims professed faith begins by resorting back to Abrahams faith in One God creator before the Incarnation manifested.

You appear to be saying that Abraham’s faith in One God Creator “revealed also Jesus Incarnate in the blessed Trinity”? We don’t recieve this full revelation until Jesus is born and reveals the Blessed Trinity to the Church. And it is not until 400 years later after the resurrection that the Church identifies this revelation as “Trinity”.

You do remember that Islam is a Johnny come lately religion. The first thing Islam picked to be their God, is the same God from Abrahams faith in One God creator, to which the Muslims profess in this one Creator God.

Then after this one aspect of Muslims professed faith in Abrahams faith of one God creator. Islam moves away from this "already professed faith of Abrahams in One God creator, goes further on to discount the Judeo-Christian God revelations. To the many points you and others including myself agree with.

Thus far I conclude; Muslims deny the revelations of Jesus Christ divinity.

Muslims deny the covenant revelations of Abrahams God to be the God of Isaac and Jacob revealed and fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Muslims reject the Holy Spirit as the advocate and teacher of Truth, to be the advocate that Jesus prays the Father to send is their prophet Muhammad, Muhammad now reveals a new revelation of the God of Abraham faith in one God Creator.

It is from these revelations of Muhammad’s god, that reject and deny Jesus Christ divinity. Which you correctly object too.

The Muslims professed faith in Abrahams one God Creator, never graduates to the revelations of Abrahams God, because they deny the Word of God revealed in the fullness of time in Jesus Christ. Mainly because they reject the person of the Holy Spirit who teaches and has always revealed Truth in the God of Abraham. But the Muslims have not recieved this revelation.

The only revelation “Light” man or any non catholic religion recieves, begins that One God created all of creation, which the Muslims profess from Abrahams faith. It is from here that Muslims need the Holy Spirit that can reveal Truth and the revelations of Jesus Christ divinity, which they reject. Long after God one Creator is already professed and believed in Abrahams one God Creator.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Simka;8943290]Yes, Gabriel, Muslims and Christians alike profess faith in Abraham’s faith of One God Creator. In principle we are agreed … or so it would seem

.

The Muslims cannot go back on this revelation that they profess in the God of Abraham’s one God Creator.

From here in the One God Creator of Abrahams faith “together with us we adore the one God Creator professed from Abrahams faith”. Notice the CCC states from Abrahams faith in One God, not the Muslims belief, and understandings of Islam’s god or Muhammads faith in God.

All three Abraham, Muslim, Christian are holding to Abrahams faith in One God Creator. Nothing else from here do Christians and Abrahams faith is expressed in “togetherness”. Just that God is one Creator.

The difference is in practice. A Muslim does not mean what you mean, when you use those same words. You cannot hear him say those words, and pretend it is the same thing as a Christian saying the same words

.

I agree

When you press a Muslim for more detail, what he reveals is this: the faith he ACTUALLY professes is NOT “faith in Abrahams faith of One God Creator” but more correctly it is MOHAMMAD’S DISTORTION of Abraham’s faith of One God Creator. But MOHAMMAD’S DISTORTION is not the same as the true faith of Abraham. They are VERY DIFFERENT things, to the point of being irreconcilable, one with the other. If one is right, the other is wrong. One is an impersonator using the other’s name.

No argument here, because the CCC does not go into Muhammads distorted teachings of Abrahams God. Only Muslims profess faith in Abrahams faith in One God Creator.

We are not discussing Abrahams faith and revelations of God that continue on from Abrahams faith. We are discussing only Abrahams faith in One God Creator.

Muslims would find it very hard to move away from Abrahams faith in One God Creator, revealed from Muslims professed faith in Abrahams One God Creater. Where Muslims take off from here takes on a different deity other than Abrahams later revelations of God which get fulfilled in Jesus Christ crucified.

To put it another way, the Muslim believes in Mohammad’s truth. But Mohammad’s “truth” is a lie.

Agreed, But Abrahams faith in One God who is creator is never a lie when professed from any religion.